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why isnt there talk of the war here

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Captain Kindly View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Kindly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2015 at 17:14
Originally posted by Agalloch Agalloch wrote:

As is very well known the initiators of the land claims have a win win scenario , if land claims go unopposed they ll have a strategic win if there is opposition they get to war which as we all know they like to do (and they should play as they like, just like I do) so why do you accuse Stomps  of being the one to start this when this is only a reaction? 

The way I see it, STOMP is merely set up to provoke a next server war. I am basing that on where some of their members come from, and we've seen a similar example of that when NAAM was formed, in the prelude of the Great War.

I have no idea why this is happening: just plain boredom, or maybe feeling threatened in the longer run or some outstanding grudges. Maybe a combination aof some/ all of those.

What I am sure about is that the reason STOMP claims, namely doing it for the good of the whole of Illy as aj claims, is complete bogus.

Of course I may be wrong. Maybe watching these cycles of instigating mass wars for over 3 years now for ridiculous reasons, has made me cynical.

For example, I hope nobody really believes the Consone War was really about possessing a trove mine.

For the rest, I'm joining Angrim when he says that everything I want to say has been said here.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Agalloch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2015 at 15:35
Originally posted by Beyljr Beyljr wrote:

Originally posted by Gragnog Gragnog wrote:

And if you think Stomp started this war having any real issue with land claims you are just as naive as your long posts suggest. They started the war because they were getting bored and knew attacking the land claims would get the response they wanted. This is just a game, enjoy it or leave.

I agree with you that this is definitely what it looks like, atleast to me too. My only question is, if they are bored, why pick a fight with people that don't want to fight, by trying to force their will on other players? Why not just ask people who wants to fight and then have a fight? Illy is not lacking people that want to fight. So let them arrange some nice alliance vs alliance competition if they are bored? Many people that they are forcing to fight are still trying to recover from the last war, and are in no shape to defend themselves yet. Many haven't even gotten back up to 10 cities yet, nevermind gotten beyond that. So picking a fight with them against their will is hardly a fair fight. And kicking them when they are already down will only drive them away from the game. Therefore if Stomp is bored, then they should find other people that are bored and arrange some nice competition. Then they would be looked up to as winners of the competition instead of looked down upon as people that forced an unwanted war by trying to lord over everyone else.

If they want, here is a suggestion for them. Pick a spot, any spot, preferably near the center of a large area. Then post a challenge to see what alliance can control it the longest, and offer some prize to whoever does. My guess is that if they make the prize big enough, then they will have plenty of people to fight against there, and none of them fighting against their will, and none of them losing rebuilding speed because of it.

As is very well known the initiators of the land claims have a win win scenario , if land claims go unopposed they ll have a strategic win if there is opposition they get to war which as we all know they like to do (and they should play as they like, just like I do) so why do you accuse Stomps  of being the one to start this when this is only a reaction? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ajqtrz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2015 at 23:37
Originally posted by Beyljr Beyljr wrote:

Originally posted by Gragnog Gragnog wrote:

And if you think Stomp started this war having any real issue with land claims you are just as naive as your long posts suggest. They started the war because they were getting bored and knew attacking the land claims would get the response they wanted. This is just a game, enjoy it or leave.

I agree with you that this is definitely what it looks like, atleast to me too. My only question is, if they are bored, why pick a fight with people that don't want to fight, by trying to force their will on other players? Why not just ask people who wants to fight and then have a fight? Illy is not lacking people that want to fight. So let them arrange some nice alliance vs alliance competition if they are bored? Many people that they are forcing to fight are still trying to recover from the last war, and are in no shape to defend themselves yet. Many haven't even gotten back up to 10 cities yet, nevermind gotten beyond that. So picking a fight with them against their will is hardly a fair fight. And kicking them when they are already down will only drive them away from the game. Therefore if Stomp is bored, then they should find other people that are bored and arrange some nice competition. Then they would be looked up to as winners of the competition instead of looked down upon as people that forced an unwanted war by trying to lord over everyone else.

If they want, here is a suggestion for them. Pick a spot, any spot, preferably near the center of a large area. Then post a challenge to see what alliance can control it the longest, and offer some prize to whoever does. My guess is that if they make the prize big enough, then they will have plenty of people to fight against there, and none of them fighting against their will, and none of them losing rebuilding speed because of it.


The ability to just go out and make war and leave the rest of us out of it, is, of course, a point I've made repeatedly.  So I agree with you.  Just don't drag players into it by attacking them, even if they do settle where you wish they would not. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twilights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2015 at 18:50
look more like strategy, its interesting play...persaonlly i want to thank all involved, it prob save the game and attract more players, personally think no action drives players away...as i have been reminded, very few players are sieged out of the game good luck and play on!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beyljr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2015 at 12:16
Originally posted by Gragnog Gragnog wrote:

And if you think Stomp started this war having any real issue with land claims you are just as naive as your long posts suggest. They started the war because they were getting bored and knew attacking the land claims would get the response they wanted. This is just a game, enjoy it or leave.

I agree with you that this is definitely what it looks like, atleast to me too. My only question is, if they are bored, why pick a fight with people that don't want to fight, by trying to force their will on other players? Why not just ask people who wants to fight and then have a fight? Illy is not lacking people that want to fight. So let them arrange some nice alliance vs alliance competition if they are bored? Many people that they are forcing to fight are still trying to recover from the last war, and are in no shape to defend themselves yet. Many haven't even gotten back up to 10 cities yet, nevermind gotten beyond that. So picking a fight with them against their will is hardly a fair fight. And kicking them when they are already down will only drive them away from the game. Therefore if Stomp is bored, then they should find other people that are bored and arrange some nice competition. Then they would be looked up to as winners of the competition instead of looked down upon as people that forced an unwanted war by trying to lord over everyone else.

If they want, here is a suggestion for them. Pick a spot, any spot, preferably near the center of a large area. Then post a challenge to see what alliance can control it the longest, and offer some prize to whoever does. My guess is that if they make the prize big enough, then they will have plenty of people to fight against there, and none of them fighting against their will, and none of them losing rebuilding speed because of it.


Edited by Beyljr - 25 Jun 2015 at 12:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gragnog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2015 at 08:41
Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:


But thanks for the comments.  At least you are speaking out, though it would be nice if you had some evidence to present to explain how it is you have come to feel as you fee.
AJ


Here is the proof:

Sorry, forgot you cannot post IGM's and other game conversations here. Had to take it down.


Edited by Gragnog - 25 Jun 2015 at 08:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ajqtrz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2015 at 23:44
Originally posted by Gragnog Gragnog wrote:

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

And while I'm at it, let this be my official statement about why I am NOT involved militarily.

1) Look at the map.  You see any STOMP around me?  No?
3) Look at the map.  You see the land claims almost surrounding me?  Yes?  Good.
4) Look at my size.  Do you think I would last a fortnight against those around me?
5) Given that STOMP would need to defend me if I were to join, wouldn't it be a great drain on resources for no gain?

I'm a little surprised the brilliant military minds that keep saying I should join STOMP haven't figured this out, or, they have and want me to join in order to weaken their opponent.  A good military strategy on their part, but hardly an honest question for them to ask. 

All I ask in anything is for people, including myself, to be honest with themselves and others.  Nobody can see what they haven't yet seen, but when you see it, admit it.  I'll do the same.

AJ


Lets call a spade a spade here. You like to talk the talk but cannot walk the walk. Get into the game and do something about your problem. And if you think Stomp started this war having any real issue with land claims you are just as naive as your long posts suggest. They started the war because they were getting bored and knew attacking the land claims would get the response they wanted. This is just a game, enjoy it or leave.


"if you think" is usually a prelude to pointing out how naive a person is.  But to show me that I am naive about this particular case you would have to show some evidence regarding STOMP's behaviors that are inconsistent with their stated goals and aims.  It is, of course, possible that you are God and can read the unpublished and secret motivations of STOMP.  But if you could do that you'd probably not be playing Illy.  So unless you have evidence to support your claim, I will have to withhold my belief of it.

I do hope you are reading the posts and following what I've said.  I explained why I'm not in STOMP in several places and do hope you can find the time to review them.  If there is some reason they don't make sense to you, let me know and I'll discuss military strategy with you at length...I do everything, "at length" don't I? LOL

But thanks for the comments.  At least you are speaking out, though it would be nice if you had some evidence to present to explain how it is you have come to feel as you fee.
AJ


Edited by ajqtrz - 24 Jun 2015 at 23:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ajqtrz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2015 at 23:30
A point I forgot.

"You're implying those alliances have ill will towards you." you said.

From what I've experienced I do believe that almost all the members of all the various land claiming alliances are nice people and would not, now or ever, intimidate, threaten or coerce....oh, wait....sorry.  To tell others that they cannot settle here with permission under threat of removal is, well not a nice thing to do.  To take the right of settlement built into the game and restrict it to some areas based not upon your authority as a developer, but the size of your armies, is not a nice thing to do.  To seize land that you have not settled because someday you will settle it, and threaten anybody who would take that land before you actually settle it, is not a nice thing to do.  We don't have to wait for new players who are not nice, the nice folks in the current crop of claiming alliances are already doing not so nice things.  In fact, when you take land that you have not settled according to the rules of the game, you are robbing others of that space.  And robbery is not a nice thing to do.

Yes, you are all nice people.  Yes you want to think you aren't doing anything but nice things.  But you are doing things to the whole of Illy that a large part of Illy does not want done.  That is not nice.  You are intimidating, threatening and will, if you feel like it, coerce when necesary.  Those are not nice things to do.

The first step to doing right is to understand what you are doing wrong.  You can dip a pickle in a canister of sugar and coat it nicely, but when you taste it, it's still sour.

Finally, you conclude:"Simply, your fear is misplaced."  Of what do you think I'm afraid?  You think I'm afraid that some alliance will do the negative things you have described or not do the good things?   Bad things often come in incremental steps.  Today you  nicely claim land and nicely let everybody know how nice you are since you could be all mean and nasty, but what about tomorrow?  Having given up the right to say "no land claims" can you guarantee that the next alliance claiming land is going to be all nice and sugar coated like you and the current crop?  You have to think of precedent.  Once a precedent is established in a community it is much, much harder to change it than stopping it before it gets going.   That's why we can't wait and unless you can guarantee the future, you too should be scared.

AJ



Edited by ajqtrz - 24 Jun 2015 at 23:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ajqtrz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2015 at 23:10
Originally posted by Raco Raco wrote:

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

STOMP obviously is doing it to ALL of Illy on behalf of ALL players here and all players in the future.

Really? STOMP is going to remove friendly neighbour cities for my own sake? Or I'm not  a player?

I don't have any problem with people against claims, if they want to go war, it's O.K. It's part of the game. They go to war because they can, and they want. But, please, at least be honest and save us paternalist arguments. Some of us are adults and don't need that nobody act in our behalf if we dind't asked for.

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

I repeat it here: If the players of Illy are real people, how should they be treated?

Like players.


When one uses the phrase, "for all of us" it usually to designate the whole, not the individual members and as a generalization, not a universal.  Hence, you interpretation of the phrase makes it sort of silly indeed.  For certainly STOMP's position does not represent the range of positions that have been taken on the matter and certainly there are individuals like yourself who are resistant to persuasion.  But using "for all of us" to refer to the whole of Illy is perfectly syntactically and grammatically correct.  It might be a good idea to ask yourself not how you can disagree with something, but in what way can you interpret it so that it makes sense.  Usually, doing that leads you understand more (even if you don't agree) and that's a good thing because it avoids answering things that are pretty clear for most people.

Okay.  So how should players be treated?  You are, of course, simply avoiding the question of how should you treat real people who are playing a game together, but the terse answer you gave is at least a step in the right direction.  What I"m asking, and I suspect you understood this when you answered, though it may be that your answer was an honest one, is what constitutes ethical and moral treatment of those with whom you are playing Illy?  I hope that clarifies the question for you and you will let me know how you would answer it.

As for paternalistic, I'm wondering if going to an alliance and asking permission to settle doesn't imply a paternalist relationship.  Just wondering.

AJ

AJ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Han Dynasty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2015 at 20:20
Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

And while I'm at it, let this be my official statement about why I am NOT involved militarily.

1) Look at the map.  You see any STOMP around me?  No?
3) Look at the map.  You see the land claims almost surrounding me?  Yes?  Good.
4) Look at my size.  Do you think I would last a fortnight against those around me?
5) Given that STOMP would need to defend me if I were to join, wouldn't it be a great drain on resources for no gain?

I'm a little surprised the brilliant military minds that keep saying I should join STOMP haven't figured this out, or, they have and want me to join in order to weaken their opponent.  A good military strategy on their part, but hardly an honest question for them to ask. 

All I ask in anything is for people, including myself, to be honest with themselves and others.  Nobody can see what they haven't yet seen, but when you see it, admit it.  I'll do the same.

AJ

You're implying those alliances have ill will towards you. Han Dynasty has actively been approaching players, and alliances, within the claim to ensure that our neighbors are as happy as can be. I believe you received an offer from Han Dynasty to help supply your alliances's smaller towns in Almenly? 

If we were truly so aggressive, we would have already absorbed the few tiny player alliances, and the unaffiliateds by now. If we were that aggressive we would not have extended an offer to help those around us.  We have not, because we simply just want room to develop without being shouldered into tight corners by Elgean powerblocs. 


Simply, your fear is misplaced. 
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