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why isnt there talk of the war here
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Angrim View Drop Down
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Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

Given that the link was merely an advertisement for the book I apologize for not taking the time to read the tome.
the work is public domain, and the link is to the entirety of chapter two. it seems you took even less time to look at it than you believed.

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

As for my motives, apart from hour comments being an ad hominem attack, I'm wondering how you can crawl into my head and perceive what I do not perceive myself.  The problem with such comments is, of course, they don't actually contribute to the discussion at hand.
far from being an ad hominem attack, my comment is at most deduction. you do not respond to my direct questions, you only read enough of an opposing opinion to segue into your next talking point, and in spite of hanging much of your argument on the obligation of "good" to oppose "evil", you seem not to be involved in the very fight you present as ethically obligatory. those are not "crawl into my head" assessments, they are observations about your behaviour here and in the game.

i remind you that *i* am not here classifying players as "good" or "evil", calling play styles "selfish" or drawing dubious rl parallels for emotional effect. imo, those are the things that are not helpful to a discussion.

in any case, all i have to say on the topic is already here for the reading. if you have some issue with me, i am happy to have personal discussions in a personal venue rather than further clutter the thread.
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Personally, I find, so far, the Illryiad Times to be the closer to traditional journalism (https://illyriadtimes.wordpress.com/) though supposedly it's being run by pro-claim advocates.  My personal opinion is that while they may or may not be pro-claim they are close enough (so far) to good journalism as to be read and respected.

The other post, https://illyriadpost.wordpress.com/ is obviously slanted to the anti-claim position, but they don't hide it, and that, too, is good journalism, in my opinion.  Better to know the reports slant before you read than the reporter trying to "spin" things without you knowing it.

Finally, it would be interesting if a group of Illyites did try to start a full time, not just this war, type "news magazine."  If there are any journalist wannabe's out there it would be good practice.

Just my thoughts.

AJ
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Originally posted by Angrim Angrim wrote:

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

Given that the link was merely an advertisement for the book I apologize for not taking the time to read the tome.
the work is public domain, and the link is to the entirety of chapter two. it seems you took even less time to look at it than you believed.

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

As for my motives, apart from hour comments being an ad hominem attack, I'm wondering how you can crawl into my head and perceive what I do not perceive myself.  The problem with such comments is, of course, they don't actually contribute to the discussion at hand.
far from being an ad hominem attack, my comment is at most deduction. you do not respond to my direct questions, you only read enough of an opposing opinion to segue into your next talking point, and in spite of hanging much of your argument on the obligation of "good" to oppose "evil", you seem not to be involved in the very fight you present as ethically obligatory. those are not "crawl into my head" assessments, they are observations about your behaviour here and in the game.

i remind you that *i* am not here classifying players as "good" or "evil", calling play styles "selfish" or drawing dubious rl parallels for emotional effect. imo, those are the things that are not helpful to a discussion.

in any case, all i have to say on the topic is already here for the reading. if you have some issue with me, i am happy to have personal discussions in a personal venue rather than further clutter the thread.


You are correct, I took less time than I should.  A chapter, though, is not complete without the rest of the tome.  So I didn't read the entire tome.  My mistake. It appeared to me that it was an advertisement, and it was, and I looked no further, not realizing it was a free publication.  Sometimes I too, do not read all the verbiage.

As for classifying players as "good" or "evil" I'm not sure I've done that.  I have said their actions are bad for Illy.  I have implied that they are unethical, but it's the actions, not the people, whom I've focused my attentions upon.  If you wish to debate the "good" or "evil" of the actions you must first answer the question I've asked you: "If Illy players are real people, how should they be treated?"  But you've definately ignored that question.  Do give it a try ...though perhaps starting a thread on the question would be better as doing so here would take us way off topic, don't you think?

And finally, saying that a parallel has emotional effect does not mean it is not parallel.  If the effect of a comparison results in an emotional response by the reader it is, perhaps, because the comparison is accurate AND the person ought to have an emotional response.

Looking forward to the thread you will be starting to answer my question, repeated here again:  "If the players of Illy are real people, how should the be treated?"

AJ
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And while I'm at it, let this be my official statement about why I am NOT involved militarily.

1) Look at the map.  You see any STOMP around me?  No?
3) Look at the map.  You see the land claims almost surrounding me?  Yes?  Good.
4) Look at my size.  Do you think I would last a fortnight against those around me?
5) Given that STOMP would need to defend me if I were to join, wouldn't it be a great drain on resources for no gain?

I'm a little surprised the brilliant military minds that keep saying I should join STOMP haven't figured this out, or, they have and want me to join in order to weaken their opponent.  A good military strategy on their part, but hardly an honest question for them to ask. 

All I ask in anything is for people, including myself, to be honest with themselves and others.  Nobody can see what they haven't yet seen, but when you see it, admit it.  I'll do the same.

AJ
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Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

And while I'm at it, let this be my official statement about why I am NOT involved militarily.

1) Look at the map.  You see any STOMP around me?  No?
3) Look at the map.  You see the land claims almost surrounding me?  Yes?  Good.
4) Look at my size.  Do you think I would last a fortnight against those around me?
5) Given that STOMP would need to defend me if I were to join, wouldn't it be a great drain on resources for no gain?

I'm a little surprised the brilliant military minds that keep saying I should join STOMP haven't figured this out, or, they have and want me to join in order to weaken their opponent.  A good military strategy on their part, but hardly an honest question for them to ask. 

All I ask in anything is for people, including myself, to be honest with themselves and others.  Nobody can see what they haven't yet seen, but when you see it, admit it.  I'll do the same.

AJ


Lets call a spade a spade here. You like to talk the talk but cannot walk the walk. Get into the game and do something about your problem. And if you think Stomp started this war having any real issue with land claims you are just as naive as your long posts suggest. They started the war because they were getting bored and knew attacking the land claims would get the response they wanted. This is just a game, enjoy it or leave.
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Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

You are correct, I took less time than I should.  A chapter, though, is not complete without the rest of the tome.  So I didn't read the entire tome.  My mistake. It appeared to me that it was an advertisement, and it was, and I looked no further, not realizing it was a free publication.
erm...no, still wrong. the entire work is posted; one has merely to click on the navigation link back out to the main work to navigate it by chapter. so...not incomplete, and not an advertisement. what you did was give it a cursory glance and then pretend to know the author's mind...and that is a rl parallel i think many of your discussion partners will appreciate.
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Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

And while I'm at it, let this be my official statement about why I am NOT involved militarily.

1) Look at the map.  You see any STOMP around me?  No?
3) Look at the map.  You see the land claims almost surrounding me?  Yes?  Good.
4) Look at my size.  Do you think I would last a fortnight against those around me?
5) Given that STOMP would need to defend me if I were to join, wouldn't it be a great drain on resources for no gain?

I'm a little surprised the brilliant military minds that keep saying I should join STOMP haven't figured this out, or, they have and want me to join in order to weaken their opponent.  A good military strategy on their part, but hardly an honest question for them to ask. 

All I ask in anything is for people, including myself, to be honest with themselves and others.  Nobody can see what they haven't yet seen, but when you see it, admit it.  I'll do the same.

AJ

You're implying those alliances have ill will towards you. Han Dynasty has actively been approaching players, and alliances, within the claim to ensure that our neighbors are as happy as can be. I believe you received an offer from Han Dynasty to help supply your alliances's smaller towns in Almenly? 

If we were truly so aggressive, we would have already absorbed the few tiny player alliances, and the unaffiliateds by now. If we were that aggressive we would not have extended an offer to help those around us.  We have not, because we simply just want room to develop without being shouldered into tight corners by Elgean powerblocs. 


Simply, your fear is misplaced. 
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Originally posted by Raco Raco wrote:

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

STOMP obviously is doing it to ALL of Illy on behalf of ALL players here and all players in the future.

Really? STOMP is going to remove friendly neighbour cities for my own sake? Or I'm not  a player?

I don't have any problem with people against claims, if they want to go war, it's O.K. It's part of the game. They go to war because they can, and they want. But, please, at least be honest and save us paternalist arguments. Some of us are adults and don't need that nobody act in our behalf if we dind't asked for.

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

I repeat it here: If the players of Illy are real people, how should they be treated?

Like players.


When one uses the phrase, "for all of us" it usually to designate the whole, not the individual members and as a generalization, not a universal.  Hence, you interpretation of the phrase makes it sort of silly indeed.  For certainly STOMP's position does not represent the range of positions that have been taken on the matter and certainly there are individuals like yourself who are resistant to persuasion.  But using "for all of us" to refer to the whole of Illy is perfectly syntactically and grammatically correct.  It might be a good idea to ask yourself not how you can disagree with something, but in what way can you interpret it so that it makes sense.  Usually, doing that leads you understand more (even if you don't agree) and that's a good thing because it avoids answering things that are pretty clear for most people.

Okay.  So how should players be treated?  You are, of course, simply avoiding the question of how should you treat real people who are playing a game together, but the terse answer you gave is at least a step in the right direction.  What I"m asking, and I suspect you understood this when you answered, though it may be that your answer was an honest one, is what constitutes ethical and moral treatment of those with whom you are playing Illy?  I hope that clarifies the question for you and you will let me know how you would answer it.

As for paternalistic, I'm wondering if going to an alliance and asking permission to settle doesn't imply a paternalist relationship.  Just wondering.

AJ

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A point I forgot.

"You're implying those alliances have ill will towards you." you said.

From what I've experienced I do believe that almost all the members of all the various land claiming alliances are nice people and would not, now or ever, intimidate, threaten or coerce....oh, wait....sorry.  To tell others that they cannot settle here with permission under threat of removal is, well not a nice thing to do.  To take the right of settlement built into the game and restrict it to some areas based not upon your authority as a developer, but the size of your armies, is not a nice thing to do.  To seize land that you have not settled because someday you will settle it, and threaten anybody who would take that land before you actually settle it, is not a nice thing to do.  We don't have to wait for new players who are not nice, the nice folks in the current crop of claiming alliances are already doing not so nice things.  In fact, when you take land that you have not settled according to the rules of the game, you are robbing others of that space.  And robbery is not a nice thing to do.

Yes, you are all nice people.  Yes you want to think you aren't doing anything but nice things.  But you are doing things to the whole of Illy that a large part of Illy does not want done.  That is not nice.  You are intimidating, threatening and will, if you feel like it, coerce when necesary.  Those are not nice things to do.

The first step to doing right is to understand what you are doing wrong.  You can dip a pickle in a canister of sugar and coat it nicely, but when you taste it, it's still sour.

Finally, you conclude:"Simply, your fear is misplaced."  Of what do you think I'm afraid?  You think I'm afraid that some alliance will do the negative things you have described or not do the good things?   Bad things often come in incremental steps.  Today you  nicely claim land and nicely let everybody know how nice you are since you could be all mean and nasty, but what about tomorrow?  Having given up the right to say "no land claims" can you guarantee that the next alliance claiming land is going to be all nice and sugar coated like you and the current crop?  You have to think of precedent.  Once a precedent is established in a community it is much, much harder to change it than stopping it before it gets going.   That's why we can't wait and unless you can guarantee the future, you too should be scared.

AJ



Edited by ajqtrz - 24 Jun 2015 at 23:31
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Originally posted by Gragnog Gragnog wrote:

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

And while I'm at it, let this be my official statement about why I am NOT involved militarily.

1) Look at the map.  You see any STOMP around me?  No?
3) Look at the map.  You see the land claims almost surrounding me?  Yes?  Good.
4) Look at my size.  Do you think I would last a fortnight against those around me?
5) Given that STOMP would need to defend me if I were to join, wouldn't it be a great drain on resources for no gain?

I'm a little surprised the brilliant military minds that keep saying I should join STOMP haven't figured this out, or, they have and want me to join in order to weaken their opponent.  A good military strategy on their part, but hardly an honest question for them to ask. 

All I ask in anything is for people, including myself, to be honest with themselves and others.  Nobody can see what they haven't yet seen, but when you see it, admit it.  I'll do the same.

AJ


Lets call a spade a spade here. You like to talk the talk but cannot walk the walk. Get into the game and do something about your problem. And if you think Stomp started this war having any real issue with land claims you are just as naive as your long posts suggest. They started the war because they were getting bored and knew attacking the land claims would get the response they wanted. This is just a game, enjoy it or leave.


"if you think" is usually a prelude to pointing out how naive a person is.  But to show me that I am naive about this particular case you would have to show some evidence regarding STOMP's behaviors that are inconsistent with their stated goals and aims.  It is, of course, possible that you are God and can read the unpublished and secret motivations of STOMP.  But if you could do that you'd probably not be playing Illy.  So unless you have evidence to support your claim, I will have to withhold my belief of it.

I do hope you are reading the posts and following what I've said.  I explained why I'm not in STOMP in several places and do hope you can find the time to review them.  If there is some reason they don't make sense to you, let me know and I'll discuss military strategy with you at length...I do everything, "at length" don't I? LOL

But thanks for the comments.  At least you are speaking out, though it would be nice if you had some evidence to present to explain how it is you have come to feel as you fee.
AJ


Edited by ajqtrz - 24 Jun 2015 at 23:45
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