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Versus Animals Doesn't Work

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GM Stormcrow View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GM Stormcrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2020 at 19:37
Hey Bolism,

This is *extremely* useful.  I'll analyze it over the next couple of days, and see where we go from there.

Many, many thanks indeed.

Regards,

SC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote yeast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2020 at 23:12
trial 1 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 1672 0.85 4 4 6 5685  5685  8527 
2 992 0.85 8 8 8 6746  6746  6746 
3 1553 0.85 11 10 12 14521  13201  15841 
4 1087 0.85 14 14 16 12935  12935  14783 
sum 39886  38566  45897 
all animal gear
70000 cmd att Casualty 100% Casualty 77% lost 35340  (vs cav)
4000 bow troop att lost 74000 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 44%
4603 equivalent to cav troop att
2 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 4341 0.85 4 4 6 14759  14759  22139 
2 2684 0.85 8 8 8 18251  18251  18251 
3 1704 0.85 11 10 12 15932  14484  17381 
4 26 0.85 14 14 16 309  309  354 
sum 49252  47804  58125 
all animal gear
52000 cmd att cas  100% cas  49% lost 28481  (vs cav)
4000 bow troop att lost 56000 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 46%
4721 equivalent to cav troop att
3 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 2204 0.85 4 4 6 7494  7494  11240 
2 1364 0.85 8 8 8 9275  9275  9275 
3 866 0.85 11 10 12 8097  7361  8833 
4 13 0.85 14 14 16 155  155  177 
sum 25021  24285  29526 
all animal gear
70000 cmd att cas  87% cas  100% lost 29526  (vs cav)
8000 bow troop att lost 67860 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 35%
9440 equivalent to cav troop att
4 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 2622 1.05 4 4 6 11012  11012  16519 
2 3125 1.05 8 8 8 26250  26250  26250 
3 1562 1.05 11 10 12 18041  16401  19681 
4 618 1.05 14 14 16 9085  9085  10382 
sum 64388  62748  72832 
all terrain gear
43500 cmd att cas 100% cas  68% lost 49526  (vs cav)
4000 bow troop att lost 47500 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 103%
4525 equivalent to cav troop att
5 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 1686 1.05 4 4 6 7081  7081  10622 
2 876 1.05 8 8 8 7358  7358  7358 
3 423 1.05 11 10 12 4886  4442  5330 
4 234 1.05 14 14 16 3440  3440  3931 
sum 22765  22321  27241 
all terrain gear
44000 cmd att cas 54% cas  100% lost 27241  (vs cav)
4000 bow troop att lost 25920 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 104%
4786 equivalent to cav troop att
6 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 2213 1.05 4 4 6 9295  9295  13942 
2 1538 1.05 8 8 8 12919  12919  12919 
3 1127 1.05 11 10 12 13017  11834  14200 
4 640 1.05 14 14 16 9408  9408  10752 
sum 44639  43455  51813 
animal armor + terrain weapon .
46500 cmd att cas 100% cas  85% lost 43782  (vs cav)
6000 bow troop att lost 52500 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 79%
6964 equivalent to cav troop att
7 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 2417 1.05 4 4 6 10151  10151  15227 
2 1195 1.05 8 8 8 10038  10038  10038 
3 610 1.05 11 10 12 7046  6405  7686 
4 290 1.05 14 14 16 4263  4263  4872 
sum 31498  30857  37823 
animal armor + terrain weapon
47000 cmd att cas 90% cas  100% lost 37823  (vs cav)
4000 bow troop att lost 45900 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 79%
4803 equivalent to cav troop att
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote yeast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2020 at 23:14
8 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 3830 0.85 4 4 6 13022  13022  19533 
2 1274 0.85 8 8 8 8663  8663  8663 
3 575 0.85 11 10 12 5376  4888  5865 
4 0 0.85 14 14 16
sum 27061  26573  34061 
animal armor + terrain weapon
67000 cmd att cas 68% cas  100% lost 34061  (vs cav)
4000 bow troop att lost 48280 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 67%
5035 equivalent to cav troop att
9 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 3843 0.85 4 4 6 13066  13066  19599 
2 1217 0.85 8 8 8 8276  8276  8276 
3 1057 0.85 11 10 12 9883  8985  10781 
4 12 0.85 14 14 16 143  143  163 
sum 31368  30469  38820 
animal weapon + terrain armor
73000 cmd att cas 73% cas  100% lost 38820  (vs cav)
4000 bow troop att lost 56210 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 66%
4950 equivalent to cav troop att
10 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 2425 1.05 4 4 6 10185  10185  15278 
2 1080 1.05 8 8 8 9072  9072  9072 
3 117 1.05 11 10 12 1351  1229  1474 
4 0 1.05 14 14 16
sum 20608  20486  25824 
animal weapon + terrain armor
63000 cmd att cas 57% cas  100% lost 25824  (vs cav)
4000 bow troop att lost 38190 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 64%
5012 equivalent to cav troop att
11 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 4717 1.05 4 4 6 19811  19811  29717 
2 2358 1.05 8 8 8 19807  19807  19807 
3 1176 1.05 11 10 12 13583  12348  14818 
4 313 1.05 14 14 16 4601  4601  5258 
sum 57803  56568  69600 
all animal gears, non-elite
34700 cmd att cas 100% cas  35% lost 24360  (vs cav)
4000 bow troop att lost 38700 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 56%
4816 equivalent to cav troop att
12 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 3043 1.05 4 4 6 12781  12781  19171 
2 1522 1.05 8 8 8 12785  12785  12785 
3 759 1.05 11 10 12 8766  7970  9563 
4 202 1.05 14 14 16 2969  2969  3394 
sum 37301  36504  44913 
all animal gears, non-elite
35200 cmd att cas 100% cas  56% lost 25151  (vs cav)
4000 bow troop att lost 39200 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 58%
4816 equivalent to cav troop att
Bows
13 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 3419 1.1 4 4 6 15044  15044  22565 
2 807 1.1 8 8 8 7102  7102  7102 
3 1419 1.1 11 10 12 17170  15609  18731 
4 383 1.1 14 14 16 5898  5898  6741 
sum 45213  43652  55139 
all animal gear
41000 cmd att cas 100% cas  47% lost 21069  (vs bow)
4000 bow troop att lost 45000 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 42%
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote yeast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2020 at 23:19
hi, i've done tests year ago. result as above but the battle reports are gone
My model
(cmd att * Casualty) + (Troop att * Cas) = (Rat Def * Cas)
(cmd att * Casualty) = Rat def Lost - (Troop att * Cas)
cmd att efficiency = [ Rat def Lost - (Troop att * Cas)] / (cmd att * Casualty)

all troops i used were bows. The commanders i used were 4 cavs or 3 cavs + 1 bow iirc. Except t13 which all bow commanders were recorded clearly

Data processing
Defender lost = Total def vs cav * Casualty
This is coz the majority of my commanders' att is cav

Equivalent to cav troop att = Bow troop att * Total def vs cav / Total def vs bow
i emulate the bow attack to being received by d.v. cav, so it can be better compared to my commander att (mainly cav)

Cmd att efficiency = [ Def Lost - (Eqvl. to Cav troop att * Cas)] / (Cmd att * Casualty)

How i calculate commander attack
Base Weapon Armor Steed Elite Mod Terrain Amount Total att
OCav 3922 1.04 0.5 0 1 2.54 1 0
OCav 3599 1.04 0.5 0 1 2.54 1 3 27424 
OBow 2186 1.16 1.4 0 1 3.56 1 1 7782 
OInf 1023 1.5 0.5 0 2 5 1 0
Grd Total 35207 
Mod = (Weapon + Armor + Steed) * Elite + 1
Total att = Base * Mod * Terrain * Amount

Why do i think my model is working?
look at t4 t5 (all terrain gears). It looks like it is working. That's enough for me. I didnt design it for accurate measurement

Result
The more animal gear a commander wears, the more crappy he is as if compared to terrain gears. But animal gears are still better than naked. Eliteness doesn't seem to be the factor which cause the malfunctioning of animal gears
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Wartow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2020 at 15:15
First report, commander with full heroism and full charge.  In this first attack the commander had a boar spear (no armor, no mount), the troops were without equipment.

Attackers:Unit:Quantity:Casualties:Survivors:
Commander: Seymour Knight1Damaged for 11, 189 health remains.
Troops:Charioteers Charioteers20218


Defenders:Unit:Quantity:Casualties:Survivors:
Troops:Pups Pups88880
Troops:Wild Dogs Wild Dogs330
Troops:Pack Leaders Pack Leaders550

Second report, same commander but without the boar spear, same number of unit troops without equipment.

Attackers:Unit:Quantity:Casualties:Survivors:
Commander: SeymourKnights Knight1Damaged for 10, 179 health remains.
Troops:Charioteers Charioteers20218


Defenders:Unit:Quantity:Casualties:Survivors:
Troops:Pups Pups69690
Troops:Wild Dogs Wild Dogs330
Troops:Pack Leaders Pack Leaders440

Second NPC unit is a little smaller than the first.  Terrain was the same for both attacks (plains).  I'm not sure the NPCs are big enough to notice a difference of a knight commander with a boar spear versus that same commander without equipment?

What would be the best parameters to demonstrate what we are looking for here?

The attacks were 24 minutes apart as both NPC parties were close to the city.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Salamander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2020 at 03:44
  You are probably killing off troops at -16 attack and then getting the bonus only on the survivors

Edited by Salamander - 14 Dec 2020 at 03:45
Was once Samalander until the forum lost my login now Salamander
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OssianII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2020 at 12:04

Ok! Bring on that freek Wartow. I got crappy stats on my side Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GM Stormcrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2020 at 00:12
This data is all *extremely* useful.

Still analysing, but I send out massive props to everyone in this thread.  Except the mammoths.  We have them, and we're not afraid to use them.

Regards,

SC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheBillPN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2020 at 14:21
I would like to echo GM Stormcrow here and say a massive thank you to everyone who has contributed reports and knowledge to this. I would never have thought so many people would also be interested.

I am about to attack a legion with two separate armies, one equipped and one not, to provide my own reports to the list. I'll report them back in about 20mins. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote TheBillPN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2020 at 15:15
Okay, small delay because I forget getting absolutely annihilated means you don't get a report. 

Initial Scout report:

NPC's forces from NPC Location
Army: A Legion of Scritchers
Troops:Adult Scritchers Adult Scritchers2334
Troops:Elder Scritchers Elder Scritchers679
Troops:Small Scritchers Small Scritchers3063
Troops:Taloned Scritcher Taloned Scritcher270

First army to land was the army "Not Equipped 2", consisting of entirely of bow units, 100 Sentinels and a level 20 (Heroism and Forced March) Elven Trueshot commander. Comprehensively crushed.

Second Scout report:

NPC's forces from NPC Location
Army: A Legion of Scritchers
Troops:Adult Scritchers Adult Scritchers2232
Troops:Elder Scritchers Elder Scritchers649
Troops:Small Scritchers Small Scritchers2927
Troops:Taloned Scritcher Taloned Scritcher258

This unequipped naked army killed a total of 280 enemies.

Second army to land was "Equipped 2". Same troop composition, identical commander, but all 100 units and commander were equipped with Hunter's Bow (+120% vs animals) and Over-padded Leather Armour (+140% vs animals). As an elite division, this +260% vs animals becomes a +520%vs animals, meaning we would expect five times as many kills as the vanilla army (Please correct me if wrong). 

Third Scout report:

NPC's forces from NPC Location
Army: A Legion of Scritchers
Troops:Adult Scritchers Adult Scritchers1984
Troops:Elder Scritchers Elder Scritchers578
Troops:Small Scritchers Small Scritchers2602
Troops:Taloned Scritcher Taloned Scritcher229

This equipped army killed 673 troops. This is about 2.4 times as many as the previous army and not even close to the expected 5.2 times as many kills. 


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