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Versus Animals Doesn't Work

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yeast View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote yeast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2020 at 23:19
hi, i've done tests year ago. result as above but the battle reports are gone
My model
(cmd att * Casualty) + (Troop att * Cas) = (Rat Def * Cas)
(cmd att * Casualty) = Rat def Lost - (Troop att * Cas)
cmd att efficiency = [ Rat def Lost - (Troop att * Cas)] / (cmd att * Casualty)

all troops i used were bows. The commanders i used were 4 cavs or 3 cavs + 1 bow iirc. Except t13 which all bow commanders were recorded clearly

Data processing
Defender lost = Total def vs cav * Casualty
This is coz the majority of my commanders' att is cav

Equivalent to cav troop att = Bow troop att * Total def vs cav / Total def vs bow
i emulate the bow attack to being received by d.v. cav, so it can be better compared to my commander att (mainly cav)

Cmd att efficiency = [ Def Lost - (Eqvl. to Cav troop att * Cas)] / (Cmd att * Casualty)

How i calculate commander attack
Base Weapon Armor Steed Elite Mod Terrain Amount Total att
OCav 3922 1.04 0.5 0 1 2.54 1 0
OCav 3599 1.04 0.5 0 1 2.54 1 3 27424 
OBow 2186 1.16 1.4 0 1 3.56 1 1 7782 
OInf 1023 1.5 0.5 0 2 5 1 0
Grd Total 35207 
Mod = (Weapon + Armor + Steed) * Elite + 1
Total att = Base * Mod * Terrain * Amount

Why do i think my model is working?
look at t4 t5 (all terrain gears). It looks like it is working. That's enough for me. I didnt design it for accurate measurement

Result
The more animal gear a commander wears, the more crappy he is as if compared to terrain gears. But animal gears are still better than naked. Eliteness doesn't seem to be the factor which cause the malfunctioning of animal gears
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote yeast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2020 at 23:14
8 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 3830 0.85 4 4 6 13022  13022  19533 
2 1274 0.85 8 8 8 8663  8663  8663 
3 575 0.85 11 10 12 5376  4888  5865 
4 0 0.85 14 14 16
sum 27061  26573  34061 
animal armor + terrain weapon
67000 cmd att cas 68% cas  100% lost 34061  (vs cav)
4000 bow troop att lost 48280 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 67%
5035 equivalent to cav troop att
9 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 3843 0.85 4 4 6 13066  13066  19599 
2 1217 0.85 8 8 8 8276  8276  8276 
3 1057 0.85 11 10 12 9883  8985  10781 
4 12 0.85 14 14 16 143  143  163 
sum 31368  30469  38820 
animal weapon + terrain armor
73000 cmd att cas 73% cas  100% lost 38820  (vs cav)
4000 bow troop att lost 56210 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 66%
4950 equivalent to cav troop att
10 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 2425 1.05 4 4 6 10185  10185  15278 
2 1080 1.05 8 8 8 9072  9072  9072 
3 117 1.05 11 10 12 1351  1229  1474 
4 0 1.05 14 14 16
sum 20608  20486  25824 
animal weapon + terrain armor
63000 cmd att cas 57% cas  100% lost 25824  (vs cav)
4000 bow troop att lost 38190 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 64%
5012 equivalent to cav troop att
11 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 4717 1.05 4 4 6 19811  19811  29717 
2 2358 1.05 8 8 8 19807  19807  19807 
3 1176 1.05 11 10 12 13583  12348  14818 
4 313 1.05 14 14 16 4601  4601  5258 
sum 57803  56568  69600 
all animal gears, non-elite
34700 cmd att cas 100% cas  35% lost 24360  (vs cav)
4000 bow troop att lost 38700 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 56%
4816 equivalent to cav troop att
12 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 3043 1.05 4 4 6 12781  12781  19171 
2 1522 1.05 8 8 8 12785  12785  12785 
3 759 1.05 11 10 12 8766  7970  9563 
4 202 1.05 14 14 16 2969  2969  3394 
sum 37301  36504  44913 
all animal gears, non-elite
35200 cmd att cas 100% cas  56% lost 25151  (vs cav)
4000 bow troop att lost 39200 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 58%
4816 equivalent to cav troop att
Bows
13 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 3419 1.1 4 4 6 15044  15044  22565 
2 807 1.1 8 8 8 7102  7102  7102 
3 1419 1.1 11 10 12 17170  15609  18731 
4 383 1.1 14 14 16 5898  5898  6741 
sum 45213  43652  55139 
all animal gear
41000 cmd att cas 100% cas  47% lost 21069  (vs bow)
4000 bow troop att lost 45000 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 42%
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote yeast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2020 at 23:12
trial 1 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 1672 0.85 4 4 6 5685  5685  8527 
2 992 0.85 8 8 8 6746  6746  6746 
3 1553 0.85 11 10 12 14521  13201  15841 
4 1087 0.85 14 14 16 12935  12935  14783 
sum 39886  38566  45897 
all animal gear
70000 cmd att Casualty 100% Casualty 77% lost 35340  (vs cav)
4000 bow troop att lost 74000 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 44%
4603 equivalent to cav troop att
2 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 4341 0.85 4 4 6 14759  14759  22139 
2 2684 0.85 8 8 8 18251  18251  18251 
3 1704 0.85 11 10 12 15932  14484  17381 
4 26 0.85 14 14 16 309  309  354 
sum 49252  47804  58125 
all animal gear
52000 cmd att cas  100% cas  49% lost 28481  (vs cav)
4000 bow troop att lost 56000 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 46%
4721 equivalent to cav troop att
3 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 2204 0.85 4 4 6 7494  7494  11240 
2 1364 0.85 8 8 8 9275  9275  9275 
3 866 0.85 11 10 12 8097  7361  8833 
4 13 0.85 14 14 16 155  155  177 
sum 25021  24285  29526 
all animal gear
70000 cmd att cas  87% cas  100% lost 29526  (vs cav)
8000 bow troop att lost 67860 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 35%
9440 equivalent to cav troop att
4 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 2622 1.05 4 4 6 11012  11012  16519 
2 3125 1.05 8 8 8 26250  26250  26250 
3 1562 1.05 11 10 12 18041  16401  19681 
4 618 1.05 14 14 16 9085  9085  10382 
sum 64388  62748  72832 
all terrain gear
43500 cmd att cas 100% cas  68% lost 49526  (vs cav)
4000 bow troop att lost 47500 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 103%
4525 equivalent to cav troop att
5 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 1686 1.05 4 4 6 7081  7081  10622 
2 876 1.05 8 8 8 7358  7358  7358 
3 423 1.05 11 10 12 4886  4442  5330 
4 234 1.05 14 14 16 3440  3440  3931 
sum 22765  22321  27241 
all terrain gear
44000 cmd att cas 54% cas  100% lost 27241  (vs cav)
4000 bow troop att lost 25920 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 104%
4786 equivalent to cav troop att
6 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 2213 1.05 4 4 6 9295  9295  13942 
2 1538 1.05 8 8 8 12919  12919  12919 
3 1127 1.05 11 10 12 13017  11834  14200 
4 640 1.05 14 14 16 9408  9408  10752 
sum 44639  43455  51813 
animal armor + terrain weapon .
46500 cmd att cas 100% cas  85% lost 43782  (vs cav)
6000 bow troop att lost 52500 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 79%
6964 equivalent to cav troop att
7 rat Unit Mass
unit count terrain vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav vs spr vs bow vs inf vs cav
1 2417 1.05 4 4 6 10151  10151  15227 
2 1195 1.05 8 8 8 10038  10038  10038 
3 610 1.05 11 10 12 7046  6405  7686 
4 290 1.05 14 14 16 4263  4263  4872 
sum 31498  30857  37823 
animal armor + terrain weapon
47000 cmd att cas 90% cas  100% lost 37823  (vs cav)
4000 bow troop att lost 45900 (combined att) cmd att efficiency 79%
4803 equivalent to cav troop att
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GM Stormcrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2020 at 19:37
Hey Bolism,

This is *extremely* useful.  I'll analyze it over the next couple of days, and see where we go from there.

Many, many thanks indeed.

Regards,

SC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bolism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2020 at 06:53
Test3:



Despite your troops' defeat, word reaches you concerning the defenders' forces in this battle.


Defenders: Unit: Quantity: Casualties: Survivors:
Troops: Scuttlers Scuttlers 3023 2913 110
Troops: Adult Scuttlers Adult Scuttlers 1507 1453 54
Troops: Ravenous Scuttlers Ravenous Scuttlers 750 722 28
Troops:Elder Scuttlers Elder Scuttlers37135813
Attackers:Unit:Quantity:Casualties:Survivors:
Commander: K19-05 Knights Knight 1 Damaged for 200, 0 health remains.
Troops: Knights Knights 1332 1332 0

Report:
https://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/External/CombatReport/AQAAAEhf-CD3SIWc5BCh0KtJ3I9wZXVeg7QsNjwEDwkyc7p2AIiY1QTM_sE=

Small forest:
whole calculation on that spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vQ1EfCAM0pC6RH5oQ2KWRlFy3c0Tsz-zEr1WaJg0tlY/edit#gid=1443502364
<< I based the boar spear on 104 (120%animal -16% attack)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bolism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2020 at 05:26
Test2:


Despite your troops' defeat, word reaches you concerning the defenders' forces in this battle.


Defenders: Unit: Quantity: Casualties: Survivors:
Troops: Young Elephants Young Elephants 34 33 1
Troops: Adult Elephants Adult Elephants 17 17 0
Troops: Bull Elephants Bull Elephants 8 8 0
Troops:Elder Elephants Elder Elephants550
Attackers:Unit:Quantity:Casualties:Survivors:
Commander: T1 Charioteers Charioteer 1 Damaged for 100, 0 health remains.
Troops: Charioteers Charioteers 145 145 0


Report: https://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/External/CombatReport/AQAAALidnLSlv0FgP8j2Ax2zl-EjM35Nq2yxUghZ9Db2TryWMhEykJThNgA=

Calculation:

Defense: (large hills)

34x66+17x81+8x100+5x142=5131
5131x0.9=4617.9 cav def on large hills

Attack: no elite
commander
37x(1+1x120%)x(1-15%)=69.19
37x(1+1x104%)x(1-15%)=64.158

Troops
145x37x(1-15%)=4560.25

Army
4560.25+69.19=4629.44
4560.25+64.158=4624.408

Should win in theory, if I didn't made mistake here also


I'll make some more test with some stronger commanders to see how far it is!














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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bolism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2020 at 02:58
Test1:
Defenders:Unit:Quantity:Casualties:Survivors:
Troops: Rhino Calves Rhino Calves 8 8 0
Troops: Enraged Rhinos Enraged Rhinos 4 4 0
Troops:Adult Black Rhinos Adult Black Rhinos321

- terrain: Plains
- attacking army: Cav

Total defense vs Cav:  845 = (8x32 + 4x51 + 3x72) x (1 + 25%) = 676 x 1.25

Army sent:
Commander: 1 charioteer, lvl 0, with 1 boar spear:
- attack (if + animal): 37 x ( 1 + 2 x 120%) x (1 + 30%) = 37 x 3.4 x 1.3 = 163.54
- attack (if +animal - atk): 37 x (1 + 2 x (120%-16%))x(1+30%) =  37 x 3.08 x 1.3 = 148.148

Troops:
15 charioteers: 15x37x(1+30%) = 721.5

Either way it's higher than the def and should get a win (if I didn't messed up :D ):
721.5+148.148=869.648
721.5+163.54 = 885.04

Results: (https://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/External/CombatReport/AQAAAHQNRjrIMmLpC4VdWWlZujY8OAqyKtiZ8HmWLwgo5frMo3MDoN-NXP0=)


Despite your troops' defeat, word reaches you concerning the defenders' forces in this battle.

Defenders: Unit: Quantity: Casualties: Survivors:
Troops: Rhino Calves 8 8 0
Troops: Enraged Rhinos 4 4 0
Troops: Adult Black Rhinos321
Attackers:Unit:Quantity:Casualties:Survivors:
Commander: T1 Charioteer 1 Damaged for 100, 0 health remains.
Troops: Charioteers Charioteers 15 15 0



Edited by Bolism - 07 Dec 2020 at 02:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bolism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2020 at 08:51
Not scaled correctly, I'll create some new fresh commanders tomorrow and will send few on suicidal missions, I'll report then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GM Stormcrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2020 at 09:45
Originally posted by Bolism Bolism wrote:

Since I joined the game late 2017, I always been informed that the animal gear doesn't work, by damn good hunters. And it's not something new, there been post in the forum since before I joined, https://forum.illyriad.co.uk/combat-equipment-and-divisional-bonuses_topic6486.html

I tested those vs animal bonus last year again after finally crafting the skysplinter gear. For my tests I totally gave up on vs animal since they don't seem to have received the x5 scaling of others gear in 2015.
A boar spear worse than razor-edge spear to fight some animals :o

I'm ok to redo some testing if i find motivation but can't guarantee it :p



Many thanks for this, and the link to the 2017 post.

But here's my question - are we saying:

a) That the vs animal equipment bonus is working, but isn't buffed enough (eg x5 scaling), and that other equipment is actually better... - or
b) That the vs animal equipment bonus isn't working at all

Code-wise... that's a huge difference.

Best,

SC


Edited by GM Stormcrow - 05 Dec 2020 at 09:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bolism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2020 at 03:31
Since I joined the game late 2017, I always been informed that the animal gear doesn't work, by damn good hunters. And it's not something new, there been post in the forum since before I joined, https://forum.illyriad.co.uk/combat-equipment-and-divisional-bonuses_topic6486.html

I tested those vs animal bonus last year again after finally crafting the skysplinter gear. For my tests I totally gave up on vs animal since they don't seem to have received the x5 scaling of others gear in 2015.
A boar spear worse than razor-edge spear to fight some animals :o

I'm ok to redo some testing if i find motivation but can't guarantee it :p


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