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Rill View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 09:08
/me applauds Cristina

Thanks for stepping forward, it's not an easy burden to bear.  As people have said repeatedly, the Coalition does not want the destruction of Valar, we want honest dialogue, and I commend you for being willing to start it.  Please folks, lets look for the Valar leaders who are acting like leaders, stepping up and talking to people.

Exposing oneself to criticism and being willing to take responsibility for problems that you didn't create -- that's the kind of leadership an alliance needs.  That's what Valar has needed.  It looks like that's what they're getting now.  And I think Cristina deserves applause, not scorn.

Thanks.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 08:56
Originally posted by CristinaZah CristinaZah wrote:

Originally posted by The_Dragon The_Dragon wrote:

CristinaZah, why you? Why not Azreil himself to start this thread?
In my personal opinion, Valar's problem arise because of their arrogance leaders.  The fact that this thread is created by you is only prove that it didn't change yet.
Why me ? Precisely BECAUSE the leadership didn't do it. Why they didn't is an exercise in thought I am not willing to entertain at this time, and needs to be solved separately.

With the risk of repeating myself for the 3rd time even if this is only my second post, if it is true that Valar needs different leadership, how exactly do you expect this thread to be created by the existing leadership ? That's as close to Catch-22 you can get in Illyriad.

Originally posted by Uno Uno wrote:

I think it was clear to everyone at this point that Azreil doesn't want to talk?
PlayerRoleStatusTotal Population
Azreil [VALAR]Seeker of OromeLast 1-3 days82,925

Not being around makes it a bit difficult to speak.

Here is how you do it:
1. Leave VALAR
2. Create a new Alliance, invite like-minded individuals
3. Start talking as an Alliance instead of as an individual

If I am in an alliance with an unresponsive, absent leadership, I would consider it already dead, and find something else to do. Azreil, as has been stated over and over, does not respond to any diplomacy, even before the last 1-3 days. That is probably the main reason VALAR has ended up in this spot.




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 08:35
Originally posted by The_Dragon The_Dragon wrote:

CristinaZah, why you? Why not Azreil himself to start this thread?
In my personal opinion, Valar's problem arise because of their arrogance leaders.  The fact that this thread is created by you is only prove that it didn't change yet.
Why me ? Precisely BECAUSE the leadership didn't do it. Why they didn't is an exercise in thought I am not willing to entertain at this time, and needs to be solved separately.

With the risk of repeating myself for the 3rd time even if this is only my second post, if it is true that Valar needs different leadership, how exactly do you expect this thread to be created by the existing leadership ? That's as close to Catch-22 you can get in Illyriad.

Originally posted by Uno Uno wrote:

I think it was clear to everyone at this point that Azreil doesn't want to talk?
PlayerRoleStatusTotal Population
Azreil [VALAR]Seeker of OromeLast 1-3 days82,925

Not being around makes it a bit difficult to speak.


Edited by CristinaZah - 01 Oct 2011 at 08:46
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Rill View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 08:35
I'm working on it.  I know you know that.  But anyone who doesn't know it:  I'm working on it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 08:30
I think it was clear to everyone at this point that Azreil doesn't want to talk? What need is there to state it every time someone tries to talk, at all effects disregarding and undermining what they are saying? In case you're missing it, she just says she doesn't know anything. Before quitting the Alliance I would want to know facts, I doubt anyone would take for granted that their Alliance leader is an arse after having played that long at his side. Hence instead of continuing to call out Azreil, maybe start to SERIOUSLY talk with those who really want to talk.
Coincidentally Christina asked for the same, obvious, guarantees I had suggested earlier and that none had the time to address since it is more interesting to feed the trolls: if members of the Valar quit the Alliance and form their own, is there a guarantee they will be left alone? Who will not be left aalone? Etc.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 08:28
Originally posted by Uno Uno wrote:


Quote HARMLESS vs VALAR:Ive seen things mentioned about H? and they being "bullies" or the "police" or however you want to describe it. I've also seen people gripe that there are 5 alliances going after VALAR now. 
IF VALAR is SOOOO mistreated, put up or shut up people! If you think they are mistreated, JOIN THEM.. PUBLICLY declare it.. form confederations with them. help the "underdog" with military help. I know people are doing that behind the scenes.. which is another part of the game. But come on.. if you can cry about it in the forums, quit hiding in the shadows!

So far with this attitude, H? and the whole Gankers Coalition is only proving the theorem that the biggest has all rights to behave as the bully with the smaller and the proof is in your own words and actions. You say "You are against us? Stand up and fight us". Why didn't you stand up against Spirit-Roller and fight him alone? You had to form The Gankers Coaltion to be superior in numbers and then come to the forums and play the superior and bully challenging everyone to stop you. One day you'll probably suffer the same fate and you'll whine louder than the Valar is... anyways I'm off of this discussion, after being called all sort of names turns out I was right: you messed up the whole game only to have your personal showdown with a few players. There is no "fight for the sandbox spirit of Illyriad" here, it's the exact contrary. You could have done the same without messing everything up. Your ego would have been satisfied and newbies wouldn't think that Illyriad is like any other game out there where the biggest gank the smallest.

Well, AFAIK, Curse is fighting roller/Spirit alone, still. But don't let that stop you from repeating the propaganda line about the "Coalition" being giant bullies out to exterminate you all. Oh, and also that Curse should be on VALAR's side because the eeeevil H? is out to get us next. Funny how that falls on deaf ears. 

H?, Curse, Goonies that was, DLord - we have all been around a long time in this game together and somehow have managed not to end up in conflict but in dialog. It's quite interesting that these VALAR folks feel they must come to the forums to get information from their enemies about their own alliance. I guess the leadership is as contemptuous of the plebes inside their alliance as they are of the ones outside, and talk to them about the same amount.


Edited by Ryuuku - 01 Oct 2011 at 08:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 08:21
CristinaZah, why you? Why not Azreil himself to start this thread?

In my personal opinion, Valar's problem arise because of their arrogance leaders.  The fact that this thread is created by you is only prove that it didn't change yet.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 08:14
Rill ok, everyone except you if you feel it is necessary to nitpick on this point. A part from the fact that you aren't conducting any war action, you had already expressed in a number of posts the desire to talk about a diplomatic solution so I didn't think it is necessary to state it in every other post. In future I'll be careful to always state that Rill wants to talk *nod*


Originally posted by lorre lorre wrote:

dear UNO noone of the coolition has said anything about not wanting to talk.
i wish you would learn the diffrence between valar and the coalition and vallar supporters and coalitionsupporters.
now to make sure noone is confused
jude is a valar supporter
TD is a coalition supporter.
the coalition itself has said nothing to indicate they are not talking. or not taking this serious.

I never wrote you don't wish to talk. I wish you would learn to read and most importantly to not take everything that isn't a praise to your ego like a personal challenge.

Quote HARMLESS vs VALAR:Ive seen things mentioned about H? and they being "bullies" or the "police" or however you want to describe it. I've also seen people gripe that there are 5 alliances going after VALAR now. 
IF VALAR is SOOOO mistreated, put up or shut up people! If you think they are mistreated, JOIN THEM.. PUBLICLY declare it.. form confederations with them. help the "underdog" with military help. I know people are doing that behind the scenes.. which is another part of the game. But come on.. if you can cry about it in the forums, quit hiding in the shadows!

So far with this attitude, H? and the whole Gankers Coalition is only proving the theorem that the biggest has all rights to behave as the bully with the smaller and the proof is in your own words and actions. You say "You are against us? Stand up and fight us". Why didn't you stand up against Spirit-Roller and fight him alone? You had to form The Gankers Coaltion to be superior in numbers and then come to the forums and play the superior and bully challenging everyone to stop you. One day you'll probably suffer the same fate and you'll whine louder than the Valar is... anyways I'm off of this discussion, after being called all sort of names turns out I was right: you messed up the whole game only to have your personal showdown with a few players. There is no "fight for the sandbox spirit of Illyriad" here, it's the exact contrary. You could have done the same without messing everything up. Your ego would have been satisfied and newbies wouldn't think that Illyriad is like any other game out there where the biggest gank the smallest.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 07:47
Apologies for not managing to create this forum account sooner. Long story, not interesting. Solved now.

A brief introduction and history... I started playing on the 20th of June 2010, soon joined a small (and ultimately mostly hopeless) alliance, left it after 4 months of getting nowhere (or rather, backwards), created my own minuscule alliance (which nobody joined in nearly 3 months because I didn't bother even trying to get recruits, but I was sort of ok with that), then back in early February this year (2011), I was invited into a modestly-sized (not to say tiny) strictly DEFENSIVE alliance... yes, when I joined Valar, they were not even on the top 20 page (actually, quite far from it). But enough about ancient history. 

Suffice to say, I've been around for a while and at least some of the Valar appreciate my presence, but I have never wanted nor sought an active leadership position. 

As far as I am aware, the official internal position of Valar is that we are supposed to be a defensive alliance that does not harass newbies and tries to solve conflicts in a diplomatic manner. That's how it was advertised to me initially, that's how it still is. Now, COMPLIANCE with those internal rules and PUNISHMENT for breaking them, that's where it gets tricky. As in, I have no idea what's going on. Like, literally, none.


I am quite certain (or rather, hopeful) that some if not a lot of the blame can be tracked back to only some very specific members of Valar (regardless of whether it was about actual faults or simply just misunderstandings), and that the coalition does not wish for the indiscriminate destruction of the entire alliance. 
Sure, we theoretically could have even 90% of Valar leave, and 80% join up in a fresh alliance under new leadership, but would THAT stop the war, or would we just end up with a new war declaration set ? WHO does the coalition have a problem with and why ? Can any of those problems be solved peacefully, or is the only option bloodshed ? Why ?
Is that too much to ask, an explanation of why this is happening, what is expected of us ?


A handful of people decry that my request is not official-looking enough - well, OF COURSE it's not. It's not official because our "official" leadership team is mostly away without forewarning (not totally away, but at least no peep comes out of them, you get the idea), and anyway, if it is true one of the goals of this massive war declaration spree is to change leadership, what good would a message from one present leader DO anyway ?
Maybe the leadership's silence is warranted, maybe those offline long have genuine internet connections, and maybe Elvis lives, who knows. I certainly don't know. 

And it's an intentionally OPEN request anyway.
You know, when people declare war in the real world, it's usually customary to tell the other party WHY you declared war (even if it's just a cover) and what you expect to get out of it in the end... and usually, it's done loud enough so that the general population of your opponent can hear it too. 

Well, we HAVEN'T heard it yet, us, the general population. 
Yes, maybe those statements of intentions and factual, punctual requests are buried on page #42 of thread #13 discussing the war, but that's as good as them being on display in the cellar of the Alpha Centauri Direction of Transportation as far as the "Valar grunt" is concerned.
So, please, be so kind as to rehash them for us grunts that don't know better. And I do not mean that sarcastically. Please, really do tell us WHAT DO YOU WANT.
I can't promise we'll like what you want, nor can I promise we'll give you what you want, but at least we'll KNOW what you want, so we can start working on a solution. Right now, we have no idea what you want, and the default generalized fear is something like (paraphrasing) "waarrgh, all Valar must die".




Edited by CristinaZah - 01 Oct 2011 at 07:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 04:56
I used to respect StJude, back when he was taking on Havoc the first time (the first first time) and actually right before that happened. In the past 2 months (maybe 3) that respect has turned around. StJude is burning bridges with his actions, what I see is that he's killing himself in his actions. My guess is that he's bored with the game and this is his 'going out with a bang'.

Additionally, when I first started (back sometime in early June) one of the first things I was told was that Valar was a mean alliance (not that they were straight up evil, but that one would do well to stay away from them). My early experiences were quite peaceful and I found that to be a great relief compared to other, similar games (no names, no names). As I got larger and more involved, the rumor of Valar being a mean alliance turned into Valar is evil. (I was hearing this from most people in general not just Lorre). At this point I was doing most of the 'planning' for the alliance WN and kept it in my mind to be sure to give the Valar players in the area a wide buffer area.

What's my point in all this? Even among players who are not very active, or even have been around for awhile, Valar had a bad rep. There is absolutely no way that anyone -inside- Valar did not know about this. I'm not saying that Valar is evil, or bad, but I am saying they had a very bad rep. The fact that all I'm seeing out of both Valar players and their Confeds (those that I am seeing) is complete ignorance of this fact completely astounds me. There is no way they couldn't see this coming. Me being a semi-active player knew that one day Valar would be on the receiving end of...well something not nice.

Quite frankly, I'm tired of seeing complaining by anyone about how everyone is teaming up on Valar, or that they don't know the reason why this is happening, ESPECIALLY FROM THE MEMBERS OF VALAR THEMSELVES! This is the last time you'll see me talking about this war until it's conclusion (at which point I would like to try and name this..........thing.)
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