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TRIVIUM

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abstractdream View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 Nov 2013 at 20:17
I am posting now because I want to tell our side of this story. I will follow this thread should it go anywhere and respond to reasoned questions and comments when time allows but those who would rather fish should cut bait now because I just don't care enough to wrestle with buffoons any more.

Some of my opponents are starting to wonder why I would be willing to fight to the end. I was always ready for that. It's just that now is the time to put up or shut up. There are those who think it's okay to insult me and mine from the get go and turn around and expect respect when their armies are coming our way. That sort of thinking just makes me laugh. There are limits on the destruction. The things I have built mean very little compared to the relationships I've forged. Nothing short of my own choices can break those.

It is the height of hypocrisy to do all the same things one accuses ones enemies of doing in an effort to limit the ways this game can (and should) be played. Conflict, in its many forms is the only really uncontrolled aspect of this game. Without it, Illy would be nothing beyond a chat room with unused virtual resources on the side.

This war truly started before I ever heard of Illyriad. The specific declarations and players (most of them) are more recent but it originated with a desire by one group of players to stay out of the conflicts that arose between players as time went on. Harmless? represented that group well, but now it is more than only them.

On the other side is a group of players who want to limit or even eliminate conflict, regardless of who is involved. That side was previously far less organized, I guess because they just don't care for organizing. Consone was a perfect example.

Now, the sheer numbers of H?'s opposition make this current war likely to last far longer and cause much more digital damage than the Consone War.

As for TVM's place in all of this, I believe the reason so many alliances are currently stomping on us is that it is a part of a larger plan to take down the most powerful alliance in Illyrian history and turn this game into a city builder for retired gamers.

First off, I will describe what I see as EE's overt reason. It is, in a word, revenge.

The declaration against us was announced and the revenge angle explained to the members of EE by their leader in a publicly viewable forum. He later declared it was a hacker trying to give them a bad name but it has since been authenticated by more than one of their own members. The circumstances of that revenge are that EE believes we perpetrated some wrong against them because we sent armies to break their sieges on a member of Dwarven Lords during the Consone War.

From what was posted in the Illyriad Forum at the time of their Consone War declaration against us, it wasn't the siege breaking they objected to so much as the fact that we did so without declaring war.

It doesn't seem like a factual reason simply because just days before that apparent grievance, during our own siege against a VALAR city, EE attempted a break (contrary to the belief of some current and former EE, we declared war on VALAR before launching). They did not declare against us and it arrived too late, though it did kill tens of thousands of our troops.

There are a few key posts in the insulting thread EE's leader started at that time, which describe this series of events. At this late date, the only way to prove EE's attack on our siege came without a declaration is to see the date on the battle report, which precedes the date of their original post. I don't think there is a history of declaration dates archived by the game (correct me if I am wrong, please) so I suppose there is no way to prove we declared war on VALAR before launching the siege on their city. Conversely, there is nothing that can be shown to prove EE's view either. It is our word against theirs and allies believe allies, and so it remains. There you have TVM's view of EE's overt reasoning.

Other alliances began targeting us soon after EE did. A leader of one of these top ten alliances told me they are attacking us to "free up" EE so they can help them in other regions. That, at least is strategically sound, however I have been lead to understand there are other reasons.

One of the reasons bandied about as to why TVM is being decimated by a handful of very large alliances is that we are an arm of the Night Crusaders.

Some of our members went to NC during their war against Bane. Apparently some players are saying the TVM members who joined NC made the difference in that war. I can't imagine these folks actually believe that.

NC obviously gained some population from their new recruits and they very likely were able to utilize the troops those members brought with them to their fullest but turning the war? Can anyone actually make a case for that?

The TVM family members who went to NC at that time did so to learn. They wanted to help but they got way more out of it than NC did.

The next event on their agenda of reasons is TVM's attempt at helping Roman Empire.

A few of us went over to teach them how to defend against the overwhelming numbers they were up against. RE's leadership understood we expected them to stick to defensive actions and one of the leaders of Celtic Knights had been told that was what we expected of RE. I gave specific instructions to my family members who went there that if RE took any organized, offensive actions they were to return home and all support would end. Not a single troop was launched against Celtic Knights from TVM proper or TVM members in RE. To my knowledge, once we arrived, no further offensive action was launched by RE.

Talks between myself and the Celtic Knights leader I was in contact with seemed to be progressing well until uCrow came into the picture. uCrow instructed the Celtic Knights to leave all negotiations to them and thus, at that point I was cut off.

I understand our enemies are doing their best to pile on reasons for this war against us but as players leave alliances not at war to join EE and others who are at war so they can come after us en masse, is this really a reason they should be holding up as worth a damn?

The next reason I have heard for killing TVM is that we are a shill for Harmless?.

TVM is a friend of H?. We are a friend of NC and several other alliances as well. We are loyal and we expect loyalty in return. Is that so weird? Some rather large alliances are going after H? and NC and are hitting us too. That is to be expected. Perhaps it is just a case of pure synchronicity that EE chose to exact their revenge when they did but given the way this is all playing out does anyone really believe it was a coincidence?

Lately, another alliance has declared against us. I presume that now it seems fairly safe to do so, since we have already lost cities and are very unlikely to cause them any serious harm within our current circumstances. They are taking advantage of the situation to ensure the safety of one of their members because it just makes good strategic sense to kick us while we're down.

There have been several calls from our opponents for me to surrender TVM to whatever terms EE feels are adequate. I've told them before, I will tell them again and I will say it here; I will never surrender. I believe that personally it is wrong, I believe that philosophically it is wrong and I believe that morally it is wrong.

I believe this war is between two diametrically opposed viewpoints. Well over a year ago, I attempted to publicly discern them but was told to shut up because I was just stupid and that I should embrace "diversity".

I believe those who tout war in Illy are the best possible advocates for this game. I also believe that those who would snuff out the diverse warring players (ironically, with war) are sounding the death knell of this game. Some seem to wish to make Illy into a retirement community. How many new players will that attract?

Without adversity we can never know what we are capable of.
Bonfyr Verboo
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Sloter View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Sloter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2013 at 22:17
I dont think that anyone is trying to snuff out divers warring players as you said it.It is probably just your perception because for first time you are in war against stronger oponent and war is not going so well for you, after all you cant go around choosing only wars you are certain you can win and send your players to expeditions to join other wars and siege people for some obscure reason.Also i doubt that game will die if TVM players are gone, game is still here even with all those players that left game because TVM among others.I dont think anyone wants to erase TVM.As officer it is your choice if you allow your players to be forced out from game because of loosing war, dont worry about it you are not first officer to face that choice.As a military player you should try to keep your perspectiv of situation and do what you feel is best.

I for one salute your wish to fight until the end (something i am not shame to say i would never do to my own alliance and players that i like and with whom i have go thru many good and sometimes difficult times in past several years)


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Grego View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grego Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2013 at 22:39
Your story about Harmless? and Consone can be persuasive only to cut off villagers in Ursor and Qarosslan, during long winter nights.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buridan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2013 at 22:39
Thanks Sloter for adding some sanity to what is a bizarre and rambling OP.  I couldn't make heads or tails of it so your synopsis is most welcome.

And yes, I know English isn't your first language but what you've written is far more cogent than what you are replying to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caconafyx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2013 at 23:01
Just to add a fairly significant point - the sieges that TVM broke in the last war were to help defend a former player of theirs (Fromfrak/Romram) who had left TVM to enter the war. In doing so, TVM had covertly inserted themselves into the war against EE and her allies.

I had no problems with F/R leaving TVM to join Dlords and H? but I did resent the fact that they turned to their former alliance to break a siege that was of their own doing due to repeated diplo/magical/military attacks on exceedingly small EE players in my vicinity (I know this because it was what brought me back to EE from their training alliance and into the Consone War.)

As for opportunistic warmongering... I have to take exception to this. TVM did not enter the Consone War (at least officially) until the last days of the war after most of the Consone alliances had already surrendered and EE was left on its own. 

Again I am more aware of the exact timescale of events during that period because I am on TVM's doorstep and  it was their entry in to the war that caused me and my neighbour to retire from the war and look to personally surrender to H? and their allies - in doing so we helped encourage the rest of EE to surrender and so ended the war.

Please note that I am not involved in this war and as such do not have an axe to grind. I just think that we should not be disingenuous.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tatharion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2013 at 23:04
A couple of ancient Greek and Latin Sayings might contribute to your reflexion as an Alliance Leader (and as such responsible for the well-being of your alliance's members.)

"Qui gladio ferit, gladio perit."  which can be loosely translated: "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword"...(also Matthew 26:52).

and

"Dulce bellum inexpertis." which can be loosely translated: "War is sweet to those not acquainted with it."
Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Spheniscidae Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2013 at 23:27
My eyes are bleeding...
Anyway, was it not you who said, Players should not be ashamed of or afraid of WAR in Illyriad. 
{lifted from the TVM alliance page}

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mona Lisa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2013 at 23:48
.. I guess... the increased font size .. makes it more ... er ....  I guess .. just more....

Your friend,
"Rill's B%^*$"
 .. remember , your words, not mine . . .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abstractdream Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2013 at 00:36
Ok, so one at a time.

Sloter
TLR and then TVM had to survive against Shade, a much larger alliance then and now. We used diplomacy and military tactics to do it. Currently we are doing our best to survive against overwhelming odds. We understand the consequences of standing firm.

Yes, I know the game isn't going to die. It is a free game, after all. "Sounding the death knell" is clearly hyperbole. I do believe however, that a large portion of players would like to chat and harvest rather than explore other, in my opinion more interesting aspects of Illyriad.

No player, in any alliance is required to stay. At this point it is clear they have an out, even without all the "please surrender" messages sent out to our members by the opposition. Even so, they remain. They understand that no one can force them from the game. At worst, we regroup in the newb zone and try again.

and finally..
If no one is trying to force diverse warring players out, why have all the so called peaceful alliances banned together to fight the warmongers? It must be because they disagree with NC and have to take down H? to stop them. Yeah, that's it.

Caconofyx
Fromfrak left TLR September 28, two months before TVM was founded. She was forced out by the same player who forced me out.

TVM declared against VALAR and went about sieging one of their cities. EE declared against TVM using the events I described as the reason. Reread the thread started by your former leader.

Tatharion
Dying by the digital sword was always a possibility. That was expressly stated in my OP. Also, I am quite acquainted with war in Illy.

Spheniscidae
I am neither ashamed nor afraid of war in Illyriad. Thanks.

Mona Lisa
It's a text wall. I wanted to make it as easy on the eyes as possible for those who read it. After all, it isn't required reading so I tried to be helpful. Thanks for the public dig. As for my words, I have never denied I thought you were a threat to TLR and then TVM. The player who forwarded you that message felt the same way when he had a vested interest in the region. A shame I didn't buy his ranting at the time.
Bonfyr Verboo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mona Lisa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2013 at 01:39
BV,
A shame you drank your own koolaid on that front, I never once took action against you or your alliance, and even was generous when they mistakenly tread a bit close to me, I had good relations with my TVM neighbors, but of course, my perceptions were quite well poisoned upon my reading, by your own hand, of your plans for the region.  

I hope you do not find it odd that I oppose you now.  

Things could well have been different, but its the choices one makes that decide ones fate ...  and you perhaps picked ...  wrongly...
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