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Rill 
Postmaster General
Player Council - Geographer
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 6903
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 Topic: Eliminate Option to Tenaril After Exodus
Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 06:25 |
I expect this suggestion will be met with howls of derision, but I honestly think it would be healthier for the game if it were implemented.
I think that the option to Tenaril should be limited to the first city founded on any account. I think that the option to Tenaril ANY city should be removed after the Exodus spell has been used for any city on the account.
"Terraforming" with Exodus followed by Tenaril is a popular option, but personally I think it fails the "fun" test. Yes, it can make a "good" square out of one that previously wasn't so good, but I think the pressure especially on new players to do this process early in their game careers results in people getting bored trying to build up level 20 warehouses and increases attrition.
Yes, this is a self-imposed misery, and rational people could choose to Tenaril in the usual way, but I think new players are often led by extremely well-intentioned established players to feel that Exo-Tenaril is the best option in the long term.
The ability for established players to create alts that then terraform a city that can be captured also eliminates some of the trade-offs that would otherwise occur in some regions (such as arctic and desert). I think this makes the game less interesting and results in a lack of creativity and diversity in game approaches; instead terraforming has become a one-size-fits-all answer.
My alliance makes extensive use of terraforming, and I would strongly consider using it myself. I don't consider it somehow "wrong." However, I do think it has negative effects on new players and existing players and that the game could be far more interesting without this option.
My general hope for Illy is that it should be a game that encourages many ways to approach problems, many paths to success, and also that the best solutions should be those that require some level of thoughtfulness. Terraforming with Exo-Tenaril fails this: It's a one-size-fits-all solution that anyone can do if they are willing to click enough. If Illyriad is a sandbox, then Exo-Tenaril is like a mold that creates a perfect -- and exactly the same -- copy of a castle upon being filled with enough sand and then upended. This may create an attractive scene but not a particularly interesting one.
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Gossip Boy
Forum Warrior
Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 259
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 07:53 |
I am not sure about how it increases attrition. From what I 've seen,the tenaril spell along with the cotter buildings actually make new players feel special. I remember a similar suggestion thread moaning about the cotter buildings. I think the devs introduced cotters to give new players a more level playing field.  And similarly with all the natural good spots more or less taken or are out of reach of new players becoz of the 10 square rule  . Terraforming gives new players a chance to atleast have 1 good food sovereignty city.
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Elessar2
[08:34]<Rill> when you've just had part of your brain taken out, you lack a certain amount of credibility
<KillerPoodle> I can say anything I like and it is impossible to prove or disprove
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Sisren
Forum Warrior
Joined: 03 Feb 2012
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 446
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 08:45 |
This isn't 'terraforming'... This is Illyriad Warming! Why else do you think a 7 food temperate or tropical square of land could occur in an environment filled with tundra?
Honestly, I don't disagree with your points on the 'fun' factor. However... as Elessar states in his final sentence, this does give new players a viable option for a 'good' food city.
If you want to change this - the Devs need to do something about the food-army-gold link... oh wait, they did that already!
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Aristeas
Greenhorn
Joined: 01 Feb 2013
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 77
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 09:53 |
A possible solution for the problem created for the newbies through loosing the ability to terraform would be letting every new town start on a 7-food tile, so the one Tenaril every one has would be a onetime terraform for the newbies. Though possibly this would make terraforming through alts even easier, what surly isn´t intended...
Maybe a little less perfectionist answers and tipps for newbies in GC would be the better solution... Otherwise I see the problem just as Rill, it can really take the fun out of the game for those who feel they HAVE to do it in order to be able to compete.
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Elmindra
Forum Warrior
Joined: 10 Sep 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 464
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 11:02 |
This wouldn't stop terraforming from happening, but just put newer players at a disadvantage. Currently the best way to alt terraform is to raze the first town, thereby giving the second town settled the ability to Tenaril. Much quicker than exo/tenaril, a 8-9 day process that is a simple rinse/repeat.
With the severe disadvantage that 5 food tiles cause in the mid/late game, I think it is a fundamental design issue rather than anything else. You start on a 5 food and have no idea that it is horrible in the end. By the time you realize, you may not want to take the severe hit exodus causes to correct the problem, leading to a lack of interest in a very difficult problem to now overcome. It is much easier to get help in the beginning from your alliance to exo/tenaril when it doesn't hurt you and start on a much better foundation for lasting.
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Gossip Boy
Forum Warrior
Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 259
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 11:23 |
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I agree that exo/tenaril decreases the initial growth rate of new players but there's a positive side to it too. Exodusing at an earlier stage makes new players aware of the cost of exodus and thus hazards related with bad city placement. I still see a lot of new players in some of the most respected training alliances having cities on a 5 food square surrounded by buildings/mountains (ask any illy warrior why is it bad).
However I don't agree that by following this route players are getting bored or there's a risk of getting bored. For me, it depends on the individual alliances. I think most of the players will agree that Illy's UCP is its amazing community and the same goes with alliances for me.New players and old players both derive fun from AC activities. I don't wanna indicate that gameplay is totally irrelevant here, it could also be made fun at the same time. In Den, We are conducting a harvesting tourney which gives our new players a chance to explore the harvesting part of the game on their own.This increases their illy learning and at the same time competing in a tournament brings in the fun factor.
Edited by Gossip Boy - 21 Mar 2013 at 11:37
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Elessar2
[08:34]<Rill> when you've just had part of your brain taken out, you lack a certain amount of credibility
<KillerPoodle> I can say anything I like and it is impossible to prove or disprove
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Halithore
Greenhorn
Joined: 21 Dec 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 77
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 11:52 |
I can see the reasons why it may take some pressure off a new player but at the end of the day there are plenty of 7 crops with poor food sov available where players could run a perfectly fine account. They may not get 10 cities and a huge army but that isn't for everyone anyway and if that is their aim they should expect to have to put in a bit more effort and planning for the long term.
As it currently is if you do care about city locations being as good as you can get then terraforming really is the only option. I only started in December and out the cities I've settled 2 have been 7 crops without the need for a terra and I've not been able to find any other good ones nearby without terraforming. I really like the little details so want to have as good locations for cities as i can without spreading a mile over the map and terraforming is the only way i can have that. It takes more work but I'm happy doing it so i can achieve my goal of better city locations.
I get it isn't really feasible for someone with 2 cities to run a terraform alt but i'm always happy to help out one of our alliance members by doing their first for them using my alt as i don't have the time to play 2 accounts. If big alliances take on someone smaller who is keen on terraforming I can't see it being too big a problem for someone bigger to help out initially until they can do it themselves.
By taking it out I only see it benefitting those who have played for the longest, those who already have their cities and don't need to worry about finding new ones. Without the option to terra it would put new accounts at a disadvantage so I would hope it never changed.
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For a pessimist i'm pretty optimistic
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Brandmeister
Postmaster General
Joined: 12 Oct 2012
Location: Laoshin
Status: Offline
Points: 2396
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 15:30 |
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Several steps could be eliminated if we could simply declare any town our capital. Why is it necessarily the first one?
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Epidemic
Postmaster
Joined: 03 Nov 2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 768
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 17:34 |
I'm not if favor of eliminating the tenaril option. In fact, i'd like to see terraforming expanded to where we can change our surrounding landscapes. We should have a building and diplo/trade units that change deserts into grasslands, tundra into grasslands, grasslands into mountians, you get the idea.
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DeathDealer89
Postmaster
Joined: 04 Jan 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 944
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 18:04 |
I wholeheartedly disagree with Rill. And wholeheartedly agree with Epidemic.... Thats odd were always at opposite ends in the other threads.
I like the idea of actually spreading the ability to terraform. But the cost would be very large. My first thought is it would take millions of basic res. (Anyway else have absurd amounts of basics they can't use?) After all why can't i just build a mtn :D
I actually think it would be a great thing to do for those at 10 cities and simply have nothing else left to do. Let them slowly improve on each of their cities.
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Eliminate Option to Tenaril After Exodus