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25AUG11 - Overall ranking and score

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eowan the short View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 01:54
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Originally posted by eowan the short eowan the short wrote:

Oh, and you ignore the one true overall rank; forum points.

Winning.

I will catch you one day... maybe... 
I'm only something like 200 points off the first page.
This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 23:45
Originally posted by eowan the short eowan the short wrote:

Oh, and you ignore the one true overall rank; forum points.

Winning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeliciousJosh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 11:24
Forum points :O I forgot about those...

Oh, and are you guys going to be rank gaining till new years or whats the deal... That might be a bit long?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eowan the short Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2020 at 14:52
regardless of fairness etc, I'd rather the devs put development time into aoa/illyriad mechanics, than fiddling with scoring algorithms.

One of my first posts on this forum was a program for alliance overall scores. If you really have an issue with the way they are currently calculated, make an algorithm that prioritises what you want and, if it's a good idea, other players who care will follow.

Oh, and you ignore the one true overall rank; forum points.


Edited by eowan the short - 25 Sep 2020 at 14:52
This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeliciousJosh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2020 at 00:06
Thank you for the in-depth explanation on how it works and why the more inactive players gain so much.
An example is the Number 1 Defense player gaining a lot of points since he clearly didn't care much about anything else but building kobolds :)
It has been fun to follow the Thirion vs Quentin battle. In some ways a bit annoying that it is influencing everyone but whatever. We will get over it.

Hope all are well.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thirion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2020 at 20:26
Kimmyeo, i am really sorry you are losing ranking points because of me (and to some part Quentin).

Originally posted by Kimmyeo Kimmyeo wrote:

Now the top players in the game are fighting it out in magic and trading and the rest of us are screwed because they are at such a level they can take points away from everyone else?

Quentin challenged me to a race for rank 1 until the end of the year some weeks ago. That is why he is putting an insane amount of resources into getting ranking points. I cannot really win the race (he is playing the game a lot longer and thus has a way better base score, i.e. he is leading in most ranking categories that are hard(er) to play like quest/build/attack/defense/diplo) but i tried to make it harder for him - thus i started getting points in magic again. Doleigh got magic rank 1 some days ago, thus i had to "fight" there anyway.

Originally posted by Kimmyeo Kimmyeo wrote:

I cannot compete with a player that has over 800 million points, and has gained over 1.5 billion points in magic and trade in the past couple days.

Ranking points do not say that much in my opinion. You cannot compete with 2 players that have over 100 cities and know what they are doing. Getting more cities is by far the best and easiest way to get more ranking points in he long run and thus be more "competitive". I started the game a bit after you and put an insane amount of work in the game. Quentin is putting an insane amount of work in the game. That has to be (and should be) "rewarded" somehow.

Originally posted by Kimmyeo Kimmyeo wrote:

but they shouldn't be taking away from anyone. you will never convince me this is fair.

A ranking system in a complex game like Illyriad is never really fair. Even the current ranking system is not really fair - as some categories are a lot easier to gain points in than others. It is by far the best and close to fair ranking system i know though and thus i really hope it is going to stay.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GM Stormcrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2020 at 17:31
Originally posted by Kimmyeo Kimmyeo wrote:

I hope you read what you wrote and see how dumb it is. I have lost over 5 million points in the past 2 days. My score has gone down. No ones score should ever go down. period..... No abandoned player's score should go up either. no inactive account, of which there are many, should be gaining or losing points either. I know you're going to say they are still defending if someone attacks their town... Blah Blah Blah, fine give them that, but they shouldn't be taking away from anyone. you will never convince me this is fair. I cannot compete with a player that has over 800 million points, and has  gained over 1.5 billion points in magic and trade in the past couple days. Once they are #1, they can keep hammering everyone down down down...
No, no they can't - unless they continue to gain score in each category at a faster rate than the people below them in each category, and hence overall.

If your complaint is that the very biggest players in the game have an advantage in that they're bigger and can therefore outperform the players ranked below them (for as long as they're playing the game), than that's exactly the way the system is designed to work.  Players who perform better than other players rank higher than other players.

I can't explain it any more clearly than I have.

Regards,

SC





Edited by GM Stormcrow - 24 Sep 2020 at 17:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimmyeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2020 at 16:57
I hope you read what you wrote and see how dumb it is. I have lost over 5 million points in the past 2 days. My score has gone down. No ones score should ever go down. period..... No abandoned player's score should go up either. no inactive account, of which there are many, should be gaining or losing points either. I know you're going to say they are still defending if someone attacks their town... Blah Blah Blah, fine give them that, but they shouldn't be taking away from anyone. you will never convince me this is fair. I cannot compete with a player that has over 800 million points, and has  gained over 1.5 billion points in magic and trade in the past couple days. Once they are #1, they can keep hammering everyone down down down...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GM Stormcrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2020 at 15:39
Originally posted by Kimmyeo Kimmyeo wrote:

Can you please explain the logic for why it is setup like that? Why is it fair for inactive players to get part of my points, or even abandoned accounts, I have seen them gain points.
Why inactive/abandoned accounts remain on the ranking tables
The world works this way.  Just because you stop playing competitive tennis does not mean someone takes away your prize money and trophies.  If you set a high score on an arcade game, you remain on the high score table even though you are not playing the game.  If something happens in the past, doesn't mean it should be 'un-happened'.

Why inactive/abandoned accounts might gain points
An account/town might be abandoned, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have defensive spells still running on it, or troops to defend it, or buildings/research to complete in the building and research queues - any/all of which would add to the category scores, even though the account is abandoned.

Additionally, because the overall score is a derived value, it is possible that an abandoned account can gain overall score points and ranking because of other players' actions in categories that the abandoned account was scoring weakly in.  See below for further explanation of how this works.

Originally posted by Kimmyeo Kimmyeo wrote:

Now the top players in the game are fighting it out in magic and trading and the rest of us are screwed because they are at such a level they can take points away from everyone else?
They aren't taking category score (eg Magic score, Attack score) away from *anyone* else.  

Your category score (in whichever specific category you like to look at) does not go down, in any way, because of the actions of other players.  Your defense category score, or magic category score, or research category score will never go down.  Your category ranking, however, might go down, because someone else's category score has bettered yours.

Your overall score - as it is a derived field according to the formula on page one of this thread - will fluctuate, as it is a derived value from the sum of all the category scores, factoring in the relative difficulty to get points scored in each different category.

The reason it takes into account all the scores in the same category (ie the "total category pool of all the available points in that category") is because different types of category score are easier/harder to get than others.  

For example, it is much easier to get 1 million points in (eg) Magic than it is to get 1 million points in Attack, so the scores for each category are normalised to the total category pool, to balance them out.  The achievability of 1 million points is therefore self-normalising.  

If everyone can get 1 million points in magic very easily, then 1 million points in magic is worth a lot less than 1 million points in Attack.  Dividing an individual's category score by the total category pool normalises the ranking when the categories are combined to create an overall score and allows us to compare apples (Magic Score) with pears (Attack Score) as a self-normalising system of relative category effort and relative individual effort within that category.

So, yes, if two top players battle it out in magic, and you are ranked below both of them, it will make the total category pool for the magic category much larger, whilst leaving everyone else's individual category score in the magic category unchanged. 

This will push *everyone* - except those two players - to a lower overall score.  How much this affects an individual player's overall score and overall ranking will depend entirely on how contingent/sensitive that particular players' overall score is dependent on their performance in the magic category score.  

In this example, if you rank highly overall but have a very poor magic score, then your overall points score won't drop by much.  If you rank highly overall, and are hugely reliant on your Magic score to prop up your overall score, then your overall points score will drop much further - because magic score's contribution to overall score has been devalued relative to (eg) Attack score or any other category of score except Magic.

There are players in the Top 10 Overall Score ranking who aren't in the Top 20 for certain categories of score - and if they improved their ranking in the categories where they are underperforming, their overall score will improve, and others, ranked below them, will reduce.

---

This system of calculating a derived overall score and ranking has been in place for more than a decade, entirely unchanged since we put in a small fix many, many years ago (2013? 2014?)

Is the system perfect?  We don't think so, which is why, 18 months ago, we published a public consultation on a potential way of changing the overall score algorithm but received (at best) a luke-warm response to our proposal, and (more clearly) quite a lot of negative reaction - so we didn't go any further with the proposal.

---
tldr;
I hope this answers your questions.  You are in the same boat as everyone else.  You are not losing score in any score category because of the actions of others, but you might lose ranking if someone else's score passes your own.  

Your derived overall score will fluctuate according to the total pool of available points in each category, which normalises relative performance and required effort to get points across dissimilar point categories (eg Attack and Magic, and all the others).

Best wishes,

SC

EDIT: Fixed bolds, tidied up score names


Edited by GM Stormcrow - 24 Sep 2020 at 15:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimmyeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2020 at 04:06
Can you please explain the logic for why it is setup like that? Why is it fair for inactive players to get part of my points, or even abandoned accounts, I have seen them gain points. Now the top players in the game are fighting it out in magic and trading and the rest of us are screwed because they are at such a level they can take points away from everyone else? It just isn't fair. You'll have to explain it. Ouch
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