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Overall Score: Request for comment!

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GM Stormcrow View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Mar 2019 at 19:58
Hi everyone,

As you may have gathered from the other threads, the way overall score is calculated is a bit broken; and the fix that we put in was, similarly, incorrect.

Here's a proposal for overall score, on which I'd like feedback on whether it's a good idea, or whether there are better ideas out there...

Overall Score for a player should simply be a calculation of the sum of the position rankings across all the specific score categories.  The player with the lowest aggregate ranking is the Overall top ranked player, and the player with the highest aggregate ranking is the Overall lowest ranked player.

By way of example (and assume we only have three scoring categories - Attack, Defense & Trade... to keep the example brief):

Player A ranks 1st in Attack, 4th in Defense and 23rd in Trade.  1+4+23 = 28
Player B ranks 3rd in Attack, 2nd in Defense and 19th in Trade  3+2+19 = 24

Player B has the lowest aggregate ranking and is therefore ranked higher - in Overall Score - than Player A.

This would give all categories of score an equal weighting to Overall Score (which, btw, we want to do.  I'm not interested in getting into arguments as to whether Attack Score is more 'important' than Defense or Trade versus Diplomacy).  It would also provide complete transparency as to how Overall Score is calculated, and make it very straightforward for players to see where they should put efforts into improvement.

Where aggregate rankings for a player are equal (eg 1+3+8 vs 2+6+4) then the players will be equal ranked.

So... this is our proposal for calculating Overall Score.  

Comments welcome.  Alternate proposals welcome.

Regards,

SC


 
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Thirion View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Thirion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2019 at 23:47
I do not like the idea - it is in my opinion way worse than the current scoring. While it is easy to understand and follow and you can keep track of your archievement quite easy it has two major downsides:

1. It forces you to get a good scoring in all categories
2. It does not consider how well you did in the category compared to others

The first is bad in my opinion because Illyriad is a game were you could play a lot of different ways (and more important the way you like most) and still be successful. With the change you would need to be a "Jack of all Trades" and do everything equally - i don't like that.

The second point needs more explaining. It contains two similar downsides:
a) In the new scoring place 1+99 would be as good as 50+50. It is a LOT easier to achieve the second one compared to the first one. Top 10 in most categories are quite hard to get and would not get rewarded with the new system.
b) Place 100 with 50% of the points of rank 1 is in my opinion a better achievement then Place 10 with 10% of the points of rank 1. The new ranking system does not consider this at all.

I do think a mix of the old with the reverted new system would be the best idea - i am going to do some calculations and post an idea later.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimmyeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2019 at 00:32
Maybe I am just too simple of a person, but why can't it be like this: You earn points in each category and what you do doesn't give or take points away from anyone else. The ranking is simply who makes the most points in each category. Then, to get an overall rank, add the scores of each category and divide the total number of points by the number of categories. If you all think, it's easier to make points, and "game the system" by over doing any one category, make those tasks worth less points, i.e. change the formula for creating the points in each category in accordance with the perceived difficulty of the category.

Edited by Kimmyeo - 08 Mar 2019 at 00:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeathDealer89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2019 at 04:30
This may be to radical for implementation but why not make points something that is present within the game itself.  Say magical influence for example. 

Attack/defense: Has to be done on the map against certain NPC's, or defending certain sq's.
Diplo: Steal them from NPC's but then they can be stolen from you.
Trade: Simply buy them from NPC's or players 
etc

Then each player has to stock pile them in their city or alliance hub (perhaps have personal points and alliance points).  But your alliance/player/city gets a real benefit from how many they have reduced tax rate for trade influence for example.  

This would give players something to really fight over for a benefit rather than just destroying enemy cities.    


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DeathDealer89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2019 at 04:42
Assuming the above is to radical.  

Why not just make the points % of top ranked player in each category. 

Position       Cat Score         Overall Score 
1st place            10000 100%
2nd place             2000                20%
3rd place              1000                10%
4th place                500                05%


Position     Change  Cat Score         Overall Score      Overall Change
1st place            500      10500     100.0%                0%
2nd place                        2000                 19.0%               -1%
3rd place                         1000                 09.5%              -.5%
4th place                           500                 04.7%              -.3%
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spektor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spektor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2019 at 04:58
You want to change the scoring system after 8 years. I would expect one to have an extremely good reason to do so after such a long time. I do not see an extremely good reason. What do you mean by "a bit broken"? Thundercat said in the other thread:

"We consider it a surprising outcome that if you gain score in a category it can cause a player ranked higher than you to gain more score than you for doing nothing."

Based on the old formula, I do not find this surprising. He gave examples of the point changes, but I think that's the wrong way to look at it. So what if the other guy gained overall points for doing nothing? If he keeps doing nothing, he will eventually be overtaken, then start losing those points for doing nothing. A better way to look at it, is what I think you all did at the start; create a formula with a mathematical idea of how you want people to be ranked. If the outcome works well, do these points matter? Keep in mind that points and ranks in each category aren't changing, just the magic calculated meaningless overall number. (Edit: Suggestion: make this overall number hidden, just display the overall rank)

Furthermore I find the old formula to actually be quite brilliant. You mention not wanting to argue over which category is more "important". With the old formula, that "arguing" is done automatically via the points that people gain. If one category is easy to "cheat" and gain tons of points in for doing nothing (ahem...magic), then that means lots of people can do it, and the percentages will balance themselves out. The complexity adds a nice extra bit of fun to anyone chasing ranks.

There is nothing majorly wrong with the proposed ranking system in this thread. It should also work fine...IF it was put into place at the very beginning of the game. Any scoring system in any game isn't going to be a perfect way to rank players by skill or intelligence or dedication or whatever. They merely set a goal to strive for, and that goal alters how they play the game. In a way it makes the game. If you change it now, essentially you're changing the game.

One final point against the proposed new method. Consider the defense ranking. Malek holds #1 spot with a score well above the #2 spot. With the old system, this gives him a well-deserved healthy percentage boost over the #2 guy, with the proposed system, not so much, he only gets a lousy ranks reduction of 1.


Edited by spektor - 08 Mar 2019 at 05:02
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smilee View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smilee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2019 at 08:37
Just leave it as it is. There are many much more important things to work on in the game than a score that after years "suddenly" became wrong. 

I don't know how long the current system was in place for, but it was evidently good enough for the two years that I'm playing and presumably a long time before that.

If someone wants to game the current system then whatever. I have better things to do with my time than obsess about my score or grind for months for imaginary points that don't even buy me pizza. If it is in fact changed then that's alright with me too, but says more about the priorities and commitment of the dev team than I think you want.


Edited by smilee - 08 Mar 2019 at 08:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rajput Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2019 at 23:05
I think the real question here is, should we reward specialists (players who ace a certain category) and how... 

By just summing up positions, there will be no reward for players who are leading a category by a huge margin, as detailed by Thirion in his post above.

I actually liked the DeathDealer89 suggestion, it is simple and may give category trend setters some reward.


Warning! Author of this post has weird sense of humor...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimmyeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2019 at 00:26
Okay, after reading more, just take the division away and make it points based. Why would that not be fair? Whoever has the most points is ranked higher. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King Sigerius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2019 at 15:40
I like the idea of whoever has the best average score gets the highest rank.
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