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twilights View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: too many troops
    Posted: 16 Jan 2013 at 14:13
with all the different additional functions and variables that have been added to the game, a certain few of the illyriad players now easily control over a million troops each. this is causing too great an unbalance in war play. suggest the devs take steps in curbing the amount of troops that can use or work on some way to make war play more equal and not tied to the size of the account....lets make this game more strategy and not just another slug fest game.....perhaps some cost of maintaining an army in the field? or limit of troops a commander can command?or a combination of both these variables? it is  odd that a small group of people can place  millions troops on a square and suffer no consequences but only superior advantage, no military action should be unable to be defeated. other players thoughts?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2013 at 15:29
I understand your point abound the inbalance between large players and small players. Especially in terms of troop production rates. 

But I disagree with you on the need to re-balance it. Large players should have an advantage over smaller players. If you want to be a large player quickly spend prestige. 

There are many large players and large alliances that exist to protect small players from aggressive larger alliances. Join one if you feel you can not be safe otherwise. 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2013 at 15:50
Don't complain about your opponent have to many troops.  Instead you should just build your own troops.  The fact that you came to the forum and complained that devs should change the game because someone else played it better than you does nothing to get the devs to change it.  If you want to change the way the game is played have a better reason than pointing and going "Look he has more troops than me, this game must be rigged!"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2013 at 18:11
***I will state that I believe there should be a limit to the number of troops a commander can command - suggest based mostly on experience(75%) of the commander but supplemented by research(25%).

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Mass number of troops does not equal no consequences.  The losses will be the same depending on the forces attacking such a large assembly.  In fact, if they are in one place with fewer commanders in the overall defense then we know that in the long run the losses will actually run higher.  

To clarify: One of the variables that affects combat outcome in Player verse Players is  # of commanders and their level.  Each commander, based on their level, has the ability to "critical" in combat so the more commanders you have present with a high level >50 the less actual losses you sustain.  While the ability of commanders to greatly skew the outcome was reduced during Tourney V - the variable is still present.  So, the more commanders at high levels in a defensive grouping the more likely higher casualties will be inflicted upon the lone attacker and the less actual damage your defensive troops will take.    

What massive amounts of troops allow - perhaps initial surprise, confusion, frustration but once it is known that attacks are coming from limited accounts/locations it is easier to defend against or at least predict future targets and ensure enough forces can be marshaled to meet the obstacle head on.  

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What I'd more like to see coming out of this(similar to the data crunching from tourney V) is a collection of the attack/defenses by the devs into a database to see if their target strengths/defenses for all the races military units are holding up to their intentions along with a review of terrain modifiers to ensure they(such as bows getting a bonus to attack into buildings when the text suggests the opposite is true) are also working as intended. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2013 at 18:19
Originally posted by gameplayer gameplayer wrote:

lets make this game more strategy

Ah, but building a large army is a strategy, just like any other. Like comrade Stalin used to say: "Quantity has a quality of its own." :p
I really don't see why any random upstarter should deserve an equal chance against an established veteran. Equality, balance and fairness are way overrated game concepts - they're the enemies or realism. Have you ever heard of the term "gamey"?

However, I do agree that larger armies should suffer some disadvantages, as long as these conform to realism. Travel speed, some of the Commanders' leadership skills (like Charge or Concentrated Fire), resistance to magic (if battle magic ever arrives), should perhaps be negatively affected by army size.
Also, there could be a hard limit to how many troops can actually participate in a battle, depending on the terrain. It's an obvious fact that you can squeeze only so many people in a certain area. That number decreases for more rugged terrains. If you have 100k troops on a plain square, they have enough space to move about, but if you try to put the same number on a mountain square, the confined space shouldn prevent them from taking positions. Maybe 50k should be able to fight, the rest would have to wait in reserve.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2013 at 18:54
..but there IS a cap on how many troops that can be held. In order to hold the 'million' troops (which very, very few players can actually do) you need to get to city #10 for the food bonus and you have to limit your sov for higher tax (therefore your troop rebuild capacity). I don't see why it's such a problem that players who have put 2+ years into the game get advantages for that. There's no way I could hold a million troops and I have 9 cities. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2013 at 23:44
1 Million troops in 1 account for me it's possible only with T1 spears (which produce less power/hour than T2 ones). You may have 500k T2 spears in one account imo, average 300k-350k T2 Inf/Ranged, 200K-250k T2 Cav... those are the very max numbers for 1 account from what i know. 

My first point is that troops number doesnt mean that much, as different type of units means different max troop capacities. 

Second point is that when you want to have a so high troop capacity, you have to make some concessions on your production speed. So that someone with lower pop could produce units faster. If you have more than half a year in front of you to build up your army without using it then it's fine, but if you regularly have to use it, the one with faster production speed will have an advantage. 
If you build T1 troops just to have more troops numbers, instead of T2, it changes (almost) nothing in terms of power given per gold unkeep of the army, but the power you gain per hour of production is reduced by average 50% i'd say.
So wanting to have big armies has a disadvantage, and it's self limitation of troops training speed. Someone who has a lets say 8-10k pop city, if he is not a prestige buyer and then grows at a normal rate, could sustain more sovs for troops/weapons production speed than someone with a 25-30k one (who puts almost all sov in food prod), meaning he would produce faster, which is an advantage.

As Anjire said, huge armies dont have a proportional advantage on smaller ones... there's no stack up bonus, other than the occasional (but still rare now) crit hit given by numerous high lvl commanders stacked up.

If something could be balanced, it would be the proportion of power given by amount of population. What i mean is that, imo, the potential strengh of a player increases exponentially with his population. A 160k pop player is more than twice stronger than a 80k one. It's because speed production of Troops/weapons/B.ressources increases exponentially with the lvl of the production buildings.

For me, the Devs are already trying to give some higher advantage to smaller players, for exemple with the elite units: smaller armies get more efficient, if they get T3 equips. Also, a smaller player using cleverly the Heroism of his commanders could get more efficiency with less units. The best efficiency (killing ratio) of your army, is when you have coms with lvl 10 Heroism (being in atck or def) and 60 units in the army , though, heroism is more accessible to small players if it's in attack than in defence. But if a small player combines small armies+heroism+elite armies, he surely gets way better killing ratios than a big player with loads of troops.


So, there are already various ways for smaller players to become more efficient than bigger ones (production speed, heroism, Elite)... "only" have to be aware soon enough of the game's mechanics. Though, maybe more options could be given to smaller armies, which would reward coordination or army formation (balance between various unit types in one army); we often advise players to produce only 1 type of unit per town, to be more efficient, but it's only really efficient when you start to get big, so smaller players could get an advantage by making "special" army formations.
 
I recall VIC and VICX started to take advantage of the old round up system in tourney V (1 unit couldnt die if it received less than 100% casualties); players of all sizes were putting many different types of units in as many divisions in as many armies as possible... but all groups of units not being bigger than 5-10 souls. An army like that had average 200-400 units, but was partially invincible so far as the whole def army (filled also by bigger players with big armies) stayed still. 
Of course it was an extreme use of a well known issue; though, what I see is that it made smaller players feel way more useful and engaged in the alliance's operations as everyone, even the 5k- players could help efficiently. 
Was an excellent exemple of cooperation between bigger and smaller players, and it was very funny and interesting. Maybe, with an idea like rewarding special formations for small armies, could we make small or very small players feel more useful and have more fun (in military terms) sooner.


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Angrim View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2013 at 01:23
i am quite surprised to see gameplayer calling for this sort of governance, who has previously endorsed strategies involving shared accounts and other distortions of the two-account limit.  i would considerably prefer that players be allowed large military forces on a single account than that they be forced to use zombie accounts to farm them as sitters.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2013 at 01:53
actually using zombie accounts limits the using of account sitting as an alliance tool. it is to the advantage to the alliance to use shared active accounts but i question at this point that sitters have use of others military, it brings imbalance in war play, to have the possibility of millions of troops to be under control of one individual is creating gods in the game.  there are also many other variables when using combinations of functions that are creating massive armies in the game. the game hopefully add other variables and functions to limit the advantages......waiting breathlessly for battle magic.....wink wink to the devs and nice job to the devs in crafted weapons and armour but the game should beware of what is unforeseen consequences resulting in the game additions...strategy is the fun part of this game, not mindless same play....by the way its a great game, just pointing out a trend i am noticing
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2013 at 01:55
Only an issue for warring alliances? Surely you'd know where to find the 'offenders'?
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