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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 14:35

Player Under SiegeTown Under Siege
Boromir [VALAR]Pelargir


This reminds me of the _duQ Berberos incident. 

Honoredmule said regarding the war "we are a military alliance and suffice to say that we have found a fair target". just like how _duQ argued that Berberos was a fair fight.

Both Berberos or Boromir had not done any harm to their attackers. It is just that _duQ perceived Berberos as a 'threat' and attacked him. H perceives Boromir as a threat and attacks him.

berberos with a size less than a fraction of duQ's was not a threat to him. Boromir is not a threat to H when there are 6 alliances on their side. 

I specifically mentioned Boromir's name because he is strikingly absent from GC/forums for such a very active player. He would not even understand why people are waging war against him and sieging his cities. How many of the 99 players of Valar would be wondering why they are being ganged upon? How many of them are going to stick to the alliance because deserting the alliance during a war is shameful? What if they don't come out and beg on their knees? Will you wipe them out completely or just stop after you have destroyed a fair fraction? 








Edited by Ander - 30 Sep 2011 at 15:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 14:27
Originally posted by Brids17 Brids17 wrote:

Originally posted by LordOfTheSwamp LordOfTheSwamp wrote:

Rill, you are joking?

If every single post I've made in the last week has passed you by:

This war should not be happening.
Lots of people who don't deserve to get hurt are in danger of getting hurt.
Ergo this war should end.

I thought I'd been saying that for the last week, and I thought that was the subtext to most of the Valar guys' comments. 



And what about the other members of Valar? Has Azriel asked for peace? Darkone? Tigre? It's one thing for a member of Valar to be against the war and another thing for the leaders to be against it. Until Valar makes a thread specifically asking for peace or discussion for peace, I don't see it happening.

Maybe they will come begging on their knees as the more peaceful wish them to. but no signs of that yet. they seems to have got some self esteem left. extinguish it completely.
   
these are the closing lines of a mail circulating inside Valar, forwarded to me by a small player asking what to do. Had to tell him I really didn't know what he could do.

However, by standing together and not giving in to the demands of a obnoxious minority that seems to run General  Chat, and the leadership of the forces against us, we will achieve another type of victory.  The longer we last, and do not stoop to their level, the more people will see our enemy for the hypocrites and bad influence to the game that they really are.  This will be the victory we can hope for










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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 13:25
Originally posted by LordOfTheSwamp LordOfTheSwamp wrote:

Rill, you are joking?

If every single post I've made in the last week has passed you by:

This war should not be happening.
Lots of people who don't deserve to get hurt are in danger of getting hurt.
Ergo this war should end.

I thought I'd been saying that for the last week, and I thought that was the subtext to most of the Valar guys' comments. 



And what about the other members of Valar? Has Azriel asked for peace? Darkone? Tigre? It's one thing for a member of Valar to be against the war and another thing for the leaders to be against it. Until Valar makes a thread specifically asking for peace or discussion for peace, I don't see it happening.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 12:42
Ok first of all I didn't missunderstand you Bartozzi. Just said that it appears both parties use the same arguments. I was answering to Rill whos version is: "we declared war because Valar failed to use diplomacy and went at war instead". Lots of people are pretending they don't see any contradiction in this... on the merit of the reasons from which this war generated I don't want to discuss, yeah there are 30 pages, and in these pages everyone just give their own version. Just because someone decides that they should believe only one version doesn't make that version the true one. However I can read Lorre in this thread telling me that diplomacy failed and in the other thread suggesting that PA declared war as a payback for a previous issue. This is the same person saying two different things, anyways I think I'm pretty much done trying to talk to the walls. I tried to understand the real reasons of this party behind this war and I think I have been given a good picture. I suggest that perhaps you read the post by VIC to have an example of what is a diplomatic approach towards a war issue. It goes a bit beyond the statement that "Azreil isn't answering my messages, so he forces me to declare war on Valar".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 12:09
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

 
Still haven't heard a single Valar say they want this war to end.  Are you in Valar?

Rill, you are joking?

If every single post I've made in the last week has passed you by:

This war should not be happening.
Lots of people who don't deserve to get hurt are in danger of getting hurt.
Ergo this war should end.

I thought I'd been saying that for the last week, and I thought that was the subtext to most of the Valar guys' comments. 

"A boy is building sandcastles on a beach. You go and kick down his castle. You could say that it only reflects how you play with sandcastles. Others may think it reflects who you are." - Ander.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 12:05
Can someone explain to me which side is meant to be which? Which is the "sandboxers" and which is the "wargamers"?

I'm a sandboxer, and a member of Valar.
The guys in PA I've been chatting too (excluding Lorre) are also sandboxers.
We're on different "sides".

A previous thread suggetsed that Valar were wargamers.
Virtually everything I've read from H? recently makes it clear that they are wargamers.
Again, different sides.

So, please, which is meant to be which?
"A boy is building sandcastles on a beach. You go and kick down his castle. You could say that it only reflects how you play with sandcastles. Others may think it reflects who you are." - Ander.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 10:20
Uno, I think you misunderstood me a little Big smile  As Leungarific states, there is plenty of backstory to cast the players in this drama.. and once you catch up a bit, reread what I posted. I'm not justifying or condemning anyone's actions, merely adding my outsider's perpective and overview.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 10:00
Uno, there are TWO huge topics regarding Valar, both in excess of 30 pages. Please read them, then let us know when and where Valar has been willing to solve the issue diplomatically.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 09:33
Bartozzi, exactly, you hit the point. In this case it appears that both sides use the same argument and behave in the same way. When even a reasonable person like Rill refuses to acknowledge what is clear to anyone not involved in the conflict I don't think there's much that can be done... I only hope that those that claim to be against war yet declare war don't find out the hard way what it means to be at war...

Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Diplomacy doesn't work when the other side won't talk to you.  I am only a teeny-tiny part of the "other side" from Valar (and although we are technically at war I don't see them as "enemies"), but I am available.  I would have tried.  I did try.  That's all I'm saying.

Edited to add:  There's still time.  My door is open.  I don't know what I can do, but I will do what I can.

So you're saying that Valar was not willing to solve the issue diplomatically? You realize that it was others to declare war on it though, don't you?


Edited by Uno - 30 Sep 2011 at 09:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 09:22
Let it be said and made clear: bullies and agressors are usually the first to cry "We're being bullied and aggravated!!" when another party joins in and calls them on their stuff.

Let it also be said that *allowing others to play their own style and have the freedom to choose their own path* means that you don't let your own desires impinge upon theirs. I.E. you can't say "Yes, we attacked/raided/afflicted this person without provocation and against their wishes....because that's our style of play, so let us be, since the goal is to let everyone play their own style!!" 
Well, I guess you can say that, but it would be hypocritical and not have a leg to stand on..
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