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Topic ClosedThis is where I stand (H/C war)

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Darmon View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 21:33
Originally posted by BlindScribe BlindScribe wrote:

Right here in this thread...I forget who, but it surely seems a valid point, based on how the message got away from H? so quickly in this latest incident.  Bottom line...where diplo is concerned, you either control the message, or it controls you (that's another kind of power)...H? has failed to control the message.

You can point to any number of reasons why this is so, but often, the simplest explanations are correct.  H? is an alliance of warriors.  Diplo is...meh.

I vaguely recall someone giving that impression as well, but on combing through this thread (albeit very hastily) I couldn't seem to locate the exact quote.  Are you sure it wasn't in another thread?  Personally, all these threads are starting to blur together in my mind...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 22:26
That could well be...there have been so many!  Which rather proves the point, I think.  The messaging war was lost almost before this thing began...that we can no longer keep track of who said what, and when puts the exclamation point at the end of the sentence.

Regardless, I don't think anybody who comes here would argue that H? has, in any way "won" the messaging war, which also proves the point decisively.

I'm not sure they could have, based on what we now know, but there were specific strategies that could have been employed to at least give a fighting chance.

Control of the message does not happen by accident.


Edited by BlindScribe - 16 Oct 2012 at 22:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 22:39
Originally posted by BlindScribe BlindScribe wrote:

Much appreciate the reply, HM...thank you.

Out of curiosity, how do you wish he would have handled it?  - He found out that the alliance wasn't what he thought it was, he voiced his dissent, and now, is leaving.

What would you have had him do in place of those things?  (Edit:  Bearing in mind that we've already established that this isn't "just a game" and that this issue, taking place in full public view, was obviously something very important to him, and therefore, also likely to unfold in full view of the public--this isn't something that was ever going to go away in a series of quiet, backroom conversations, I don't think...not based on how much is already in the public eye)

~Scribe


The details you enumerate there are all ok.  The problem arises mostly from other inappropriate and/or out-of-order steps not mentioned.  There are a number of things we'd expect from someone who stands as one of us and thus claims a position of loyalty:
  • First and very foremost, stay abreast of events and the information that is made available.  It's hard to be a functioning member of the alliance if you don't know what's going on in it.  Or if you're going to be completely oblivious, maybe don't demonstrate this in public so it looks like your alliance doesn't tell you anything.
  • Second, give higher allegiance to one's current alliance and teammates than past acquaintances.  Where loyalties still conflict, disclose such to your alliance and hold a neutral position.
  • Respect the appointment of authority (which simply means do not attempt to perform a leadership role to which you've not been appointed either by selection or election, such as diplomat).
  • When presented with something unknown, get the facts before passing judgment.  That of course can apply anywhere, but when the case is being made against your own alliance, surely you'd ask for your own alliance's version of the story before presuming guilt.
  • When in disagreement with your alliance, speak up to your alliance.  All of it.  Keeping "subversive" viewpoints buried may be what other alliances want, but Harmless members know we don't go for that spiderweb of 1-on-1 dealings nonsense, nor for covering up disagreements.  That kind of hidden baggage weighs an alliance down and fragments it into pockets of divided loyalties, which heralds back to the issue with loyalties outside the alliance.  There's supposed to be unity and solidarity.
  • When in disagreement with your alliance and while still a representing member of that alliance, do not take up a role as secret advocate for the enemy.  A public stand of neutrality/conscientious abstention is somewhat disloyal to your alliance too, but depending on how it's performed could fly somewhere in the vicinity of acceptable behavior for a current member.  While a public statement did prompt the counter-statement to be made public as well, this is the least of the issues.
If there is a difference between member and alliance which cannot be resolved, it is appropriate to part, after which the only remaining expectation is that the ex-member not share intel or otherwise abuse privileges tied to the prior membership.

But while you are a member of an alliance, that alliance as a whole deserves your first consideration in all matters.  Imagine if some key members told Harmless representatives they thought Harmless was in the right and all of Consone were 100% wrong--that they would try on Harmless' behalf to convince Consone to surrender--and then contacted Consone leadership and said "hey, I have no idea what's going on, so what's up with this?"

One last point.  I can see how Harmless can be accused of failing to control the message diplomatically speaking, but you should understand that we've not really tried to do so.  Honestly I'm surprised to see that there are even people left like yourself who bear a shred of objectivity and/or have intelligent questions or discussion.  I normally wouldn't be bothering to carry any post-statement discourse at all.  The last time I was here, the forum's atmosphere had devolved into utter despotism and inane punditry.  I left because there was simply nothing worth being here for.

Yet even if that has changed, the fact remains that nothing is decided or controlled here--not even public opinion.  Word-of-mouth and alliance-to-alliance dealings still carry the greatest weight and volume of information among the older alliances at least.  Heck, before war broke out there was more activity and participation in Harmless's Embassy alone than the whole of these forums.  Anything that takes place here and now is just a puppet show and parade for the new faces.  And as much of a chaotic flurry as this seems, it also is just the same old song and dance from so many times before, and it's participants all comfortable in their familiar and well-practiced roles.  Who in their right mind would lose sleep trying to control a propaganda war when there's no prize for winning?  All those kind of prizes were handed out over the previous 3 months to 2 years (depending on how big a picture you're viewing).
"Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 22:44
Also, while skimming over the thread I did see someone ask if they could quote something I said.  I prefer not to be quoted out of context, but it's not like anyone can control how their words are used once published.  At any rate, go right ahead.  I think the quote in question is one of my more apt statements anyway, and I've never once been accused of humility. Ermm
"Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 22:59
Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

I've never once been accused of humility. Ermm

I think HM is the most humble soul to walk the land of Illy.  Clap
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 23:00
Libel I say!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 23:02
Well, I was using myself as the standard of ego, so it is pretty easy to see you as humble.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 23:15
HM, thank you again for the detailed, thoughtful reply.  I appreciate it and it sheds a great deal of light on things.

Many of your enumerated points not mentioned by me were not not mentioned due to any attempted subterfuge on my part, but rather, because we (on the outside) were not privy to those actions (or lack of), and in at least a couple of cases, the points you raise could be regarded as subjective, and as such probably subject to at least some debate.

As to the rest...you are part of a strong and proud alliance with a rich history.  Of those things, there can be no doubt or denial.  Illy would literally not BE the game it is today, were it not for the actions of your alliance.

That said, you're only as good as your most recent epic (Custer was not remembered for his long and honorable military career, but rather, for his "last stand.")  That is simply the way our histories work, and it's a trait of our own shared memory that has been transferred into Illy.

I can certainly appreciate that you'd pay a great deal of attention to the comings and doings of your own forum, but I would argue that by "writing these forums off" you are, in a sense, playing right into what your detractors keep saying about the alliance you hail from.

I have never been to the Harmless alliance forums.

I come here a lot.

When I come here, I often read about the stuff from here in GC, which tells me that the stuff posted here (visible to a minority of eyes) has ripple effects that reach far beyond the readership here.

It seems (to me) folly to simply write that off, because at the end of the day, no matter how storied your alliance's past, the fact remains that in total, H? consists of 12M population (out of a total 190M).

In other words, there are a whole lot more of "them" than there are of you, and it strikes me that that's precisely why this place is important.

As to what there is to "win," I could ask you the same question about your latest contest of arms.

What do you imagine that you'll "win?" at the end, even if you destroy every Consone town in the game?

Do you think this will dissuade others from growing? (perhaps growing large enough to one day challenge you?)

Do you imagine that the losers in such a contest cannot (or will not) simply create new accounts?

The "prize" such as it is, can be won by various means, of which, military is but one.

The others should not be ignored, lest they deliver a nasty bite when it's least expected, and (based on your own reply, plus the general sentiment of others from your alliance), it seems that this is the preferred course of action for you guys.

Again...I can't very well take you to task for it, because you folks play to your strengths magnificently (it's just that...as I said previously, the diplo/metagame does not seem to be one of those strengths).

Of course, in light of all that, it makes the fact that you've taken the time to come here and have this conversation all the more meaningful to me, so thank you again! :)

~Scirbe


Edited by BlindScribe - 16 Oct 2012 at 23:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 23:53
HM, I sort of wish you had been the initial/official spokesperson for H? affairs in all this (assuming H? has any sort of system for PR considerations, I mean).  There's something about the way that you approach and frame your thoughts and concerns that I find much more palatable than similar offerings by H? leadership.

Older players might have the luxury of forming opinions about H? from many months to years of witnessing positive contributions.  But newer players (like me) or people with limited dealings with H? will probably have their views shifted by this war.  And I'm not sure that the current representatives around these parts are painting you in the best light.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 23:55
Originally posted by Darmon Darmon wrote:

HM, I sort of wish you had been the initial/official spokesperson for H? affairs in all this (assuming H? has any sort of system for PR considerations, I mean). 

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