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Topic ClosedThis is where I stand (H/C war)

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KillerPoodle View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 17:16
Despite the fact that this game allows it there is no requirement that you make the number and strength of your allegiances public - especially if not doing so gives you an advantage. Information is power.
"This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 16:42
Originally posted by Darmon Darmon wrote:

Originally posted by BlindScribe BlindScribe wrote:

Yes Dun...I "get" that NAP's are visible, but that's not really what was kept hid, was it?  I mean...there's a difference between a NAP and a "secret confed" as it has since been described by members of H? since, in these forums, right? (that is, after all, why we have two different designations...NAP and Confed, is it not?)

;)

re: diplomacy...hey...whatever you prefer! I am merely asking questions to wrap my brain around the mindset so as to better understand.

~Scribe

I'm a little unclear of how H? treats the distinction as well.  If they consider NAP the same as confed (which I really doubt), then I guess at some point in the future we should expect H? to rush to the Crows' defense (heh, imagine how mad that would make EF).

I had heard that H? is very choosy about their allies, but over the last few days 4 "new" confeds have been added to their diplomacy stats.  Were these groups always aligned with H? and one side was too embarrassed to admit it (the non-H? side, I presume, if H?'s assertions about anti-H? sentiments are correct), or are these allegiances of convenience and the confeds will be dropped once the war is over?

Hmm.  Something interesting I just noted while looking at their page.  None of their Confederations were declared by them, and very few NAPs were.  I assume this just indicates which side initiated the relationship (with the other agreeing to it).  Maybe that's just a coincidence, but if so, it's a pretty interesting one.

Like you, I have to raise a skeptical eyebrow at the notion that "NAP" and "Confed" are essentially interchangeable (for the reasons I touched on above), but hey...maybe to someone who acknowledges that diplo is basically ignored...*shrug*  maybe they ARE considered to be close cousins.

I can tell you that our alliance treats the two very differently, and I'd imagine it's the norm (prevailing tendency) to do so.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 16:38
Another way to look at this

You have a trade agreement with another, that person gets attack, you cant intervien and fight for your trade ally to protect your trade and the people you have been talking with under a very long time?

BUT and a possible reason for lack of Confed is drawing their friends into the H? empire and put them in that position.  Rather with a nap and being friends they can decide depending on whats happening they can either help or break their bonds. 


Edited by Rorgash - 16 Oct 2012 at 16:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 16:37
Yes...that is true, but we can also glean at least something from the language and the definitions behind the words chosen, can we not? (I mean...that's not going too far out on a limb, right?)

NAP = Non Aggression Pact  implies one "level" of relationship

while

"Confederation" implies quite something else (these, woven into the very fabric of the words chosen to represent them).

Sure...you could call that splitting hairs I guess, but there's some mighty important distinctions that live between those two sets of carefully chosen words, and the devil is always in the details.

Always.

That's why (strictly IMO) you guys get dinged so regularly here, and diplomatically.  

Because in the public arena, words are important.

Sure, sure...you can play as a military alliance.  You can ignore diplo, but IF you do, then it should come as no great surprise when you get dinged....kinda like you are now by in about a dozen different threads.

Believe me, I don't mention this to stir the pot or to cause trouble...as I said from the start, I only wanna better understand the mindset, cos it is very different from my own.  But I do enjoy diplomacy, and I understand the metagame.  In the above, I'm simply pointing out that TO YOU, the two (NAP vs Confed) might be no different in your mind.

But this does not hold true consistently, even within your own ranks (large groups of people kept intentionally in the dark about the true extent and nature of "friendships" as evidenced and supported by several H? posts in this very thread, for example)....so, while you personally might not find much difference between the two, I think it does not put me far out on a limb to say that your opinion is not universally held, and the space between the two explains much (but not all) of the reason you guys seem to struggle in the diplomatic arena, and it's cool.  It's understandable.

By your own admission, it's not something you care about, so it naturally follows that you wouldn't be top notch at it.  $0.02


Edited by BlindScribe - 16 Oct 2012 at 16:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 16:30
Originally posted by BlindScribe BlindScribe wrote:

Yes Dun...I "get" that NAP's are visible, but that's not really what was kept hid, was it?  I mean...there's a difference between a NAP and a "secret confed" as it has since been described by members of H? since, in these forums, right? (that is, after all, why we have two different designations...NAP and Confed, is it not?)

;)

re: diplomacy...hey...whatever you prefer! I am merely asking questions to wrap my brain around the mindset so as to better understand.

~Scribe

I'm a little unclear of how H? treats the distinction as well.  If they consider NAP the same as confed (which I really doubt), then I guess at some point in the future we should expect H? to rush to the Crows' defense (heh, imagine how mad that would make EF).

I had heard that H? is very choosy about their allies, but over the last few days 4 "new" confeds have been added to their diplomacy stats.  Were these groups always aligned with H? and one side was too embarrassed to admit it (the non-H? side, I presume, if H?'s assertions about anti-H? sentiments are correct), or are these allegiances of convenience and the confeds will be dropped once the war is over?

Hmm.  Something interesting I just noted while looking at their page.  None of their Confederations were declared by them, and very few NAPs were.  I assume this just indicates which side initiated the relationship (with the other agreeing to it).  Maybe that's just a coincidence, but if so, it's a pretty interesting one.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 16:29
As far as I know the main differences between "confed" and NAP are the "edit alliance foreign affairs" permissions and the 10 square rule for exodus, otherwise the effects are identical.  What it additionally means for the affected parties depends on the alliances and the folks who negotiated the NAP or confederation.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 16:09
Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

  You might also note that we didn't do it on convenient timing, after using up his troops in defenses and such.


So was it a mutual agreement to part ways or sunstorm left on his own accord?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 15:44
Yes Dun...I "get" that NAP's are visible, but that's not really what was kept hid, was it?  I mean...there's a difference between a NAP and a "secret confed" as it has since been described by members of H?, in these forums, right? (that is, after all, why we have two different designations...NAP and Confed, is it not?)

;)

re: diplomacy...hey...whatever you prefer! I am merely asking questions to wrap my brain around the mindset so as to better understand.

~Scribe




Edited by BlindScribe - 16 Oct 2012 at 16:29
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dunnoob View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 15:19
Originally posted by BlindScribe BlindScribe wrote:

H? apparently even keeps its own membership in the dark about who their secret (ubersecret?) friends are
The NAP was published months ago in the Herald Diplomatic, it was visible on the public alliance diplomacy pages, and players interested in diplomacy knew that the farmers rarely offer or accept NAPs.
Originally posted by BlindScribe BlindScribe wrote:

Just trying to understand what I view as a most "unusual" mindset.
Most players in my alliance don't care about diplomacy, and I guess that's the "usual" mindset everywhere. Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 13:19
Much appreciate the reply, HM...thank you.

Out of curiosity, how do you wish he would have handled it?  - He found out that the alliance wasn't what he thought it was, he voiced his dissent, and now, is leaving.

What would you have had him do in place of those things?  (Edit:  Bearing in mind that we've already established that this isn't "just a game" and that this issue, taking place in full public view, was obviously something very important to him, and therefore, also likely to unfold in full view of the public--this isn't something that was ever going to go away in a series of quiet, backroom conversations, I don't think...not based on how much is already in the public eye)

~Scribe


Edited by BlindScribe - 16 Oct 2012 at 13:24
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