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Topic ClosedThis is where I stand (H/C war)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 21:30
Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

 
Conclusion:
"It's only a game" is a nonsensical metric akin to "how many angels on a pinhead."  And whatever that statement is supposed to mean, Illyriad is clearly not "only a game" anyway.

It's only a game and when people are pissed off they have all chances to quit it, unlike real life where you can't do anything like that. Never did I speak of metrics... the only nonsensical thing I can read in this post is your opinion (presented as a matter of fact) about Illyriad not being only a game.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 22:10
Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

either you're wrong about us and them now, or you've been wrong about us all along before.
 Apparently I have been wrong about a great many things.  Harmless, I wish you all the best.  Truly.
"Side? I am on nobody's side because nobody is on my side" ~LoTR

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 22:21
Here are my thoughts on this, for what they're worth.

The absence of real consequences makes Illy "only a game" in my opinion. All the variations and addendums make it quite a fascinating game but still a game.

I first thought it odd that any member of a clearly defined, militarily powerful and ominous alliance within this game would publicly voice dissent, until I realized that like my own alliance it too is made up of real people.

I found SunStorm's line of questioning of Consone to be quite relavent and was interested in the response. I find his questioning of H?'s motives to also be relavent and interesting. Honored Mule's reply was eloquent and very satisfying.

Having no dog in this race I eagerly await the next chapter in the H?/Consone saga.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 23:03
When you have invested time and effort into building something and that thing is damaged or destroyed such that you have to rebuild it or start over then that is a real consequence regardless of whether the "thing" concerned is made from pixels or something "real".

For me the chance that things I have invested significant effort in might be destroyed gives the game it's edge/excitement/challenge, and is a big part of why I play.


Edited by KillerPoodle - 15 Oct 2012 at 23:04
"This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 00:59
Its like saying this program i made over the past year spending every waking hour making and i pushed in every dime i had that you deleted was not real so why you so upset?

Its a game, but the TIME we put in is not, a "game" if you spend time in it is a part of your life, and your life is real, so your game life is real.

H? I hope for a good war, show us some action!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 01:17
Originally posted by KillerPoodle KillerPoodle wrote:


When you have invested time and effort into building something and that thing is damaged or destroyed such that you have to rebuild it or start over then that is a real consequence regardless of whether the "thing" concerned is made from pixels or something "real".

For me the chance that things I have invested significant effort in might be destroyed gives the game it's edge/excitement/challenge, and is a big part of why I play.



Excellent point. I will not argue with you that there is a certain thrill when the mechanics of the game get into gear and that that thrill comes from the possibility of loss but at best this "realness" is just at the edge of "reality."

Except in some wild, fantastical, extreme example, no one who ever clicks a mouse in Illy is ever in any true danger whatsoever. It is true that time, effort and even money are good examples of real things that can really be lost, however at no time is there ever any tangible danger. No one dies, gets hurt or gets sick. Therein lies the seperation from reality.

There are always consequences, however I don't believe we should lump the consequences of pissing off some anonymous someone on the other side of a keyboard in with the consequences of pissing off someone standing in front of you. The only similarity with actual consequences I can imagine is if one becomes "addicted" to the game to the detriment of their real life.

That being said, I do see the point you make. I pretty much agree with what you say. I think we are simply seeing things at slightly different angles. We seem to be debating the nuances of what is and isn't real and I believe eventually we will not be able to slice it any thinner and the debate will stall.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 01:38
Im here its real, Alot of people waves around the reality stamp trying to tell me my life playing games is not reality and i should get out and what? drink booze get drunk and have sex with random people, is that life?  I have alot more fun then they ever seem to have every day, im here to stay and you can drink your poison and do your "looking at faces" thing and i will just have more fun then you :P
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 03:39
Originally posted by SunStorm SunStorm wrote:

In that sense, this might have been stopped had Consone furnished a policy in which diplomatic channels would always precede attacking a 3rd party who is in negotiations with someone else.

This summary doesn't include SkB's perspective on the "negotiations".  Is that fair?

The bigger point is:

What I hear you saying is that if any confederate of any member of Consone feels that negotiations are not working out and calls on said member of Consone for help that Consone member should try to restart negotiations per Consone rules (laws?).  Also, Consone should do likewise before assisting a Consone member from attacks.  Is that true and fair?  You also believe that before H? attacked Absa and Consone, it too should have tried to restart negotiations.  Is that also correct?  Do you think H? attacked Absa when the active members attacked or when members left to join RHY to attack Absa?  Are those members welcome back into H?


I think Absa did mess this up.  I think Consone messed up and I think H? has messed up.  I think Neytiri messed up and Messer and Hugie but so too did Dave888 and lots of members of RHY.  I think SkB messed up.  I know I've said lot's of things that I think are a mess and I'll probably be attacked at some point because of them (I'm on that list, right).  Russian Blue messed up too, she trusted the wrong people, so too did Zebazga, Skim Milk, Snapdragon, Calisi.  It's a leap to justify an action because the target isn't flawless.

An alliance or confederation is only as good and just as it's members.  If an alliance or confederation has secret members or members that can leave and do as they like and return, what is the point of alliance rules?

We can talk about rules, but does H? have rules.  I was curious after all your posts and I looked for them.  How many people reading your posts have read the Diplomacy section of H?s alliance page?  It has things that may be rules, but nothing they would go on record stating is actually a rule.  If something stated actually is a rule, the document goes on to state there may or may not be a repercussion for that rule.  Furthermore, those repercussion are at the discretion of H?  #1 alliance, no rules.  That's a precedent.  According to the posts you've made, not a good one.  Essentially, no promises given, no quarter asked, no quarter received.  That would be easier to write.

You state your frustration because you see the good in Consone.  What is that good?  Is there good in H?  Do you feel as KP does that Consone is composed of anti-H players?  Is it most members in Consone or just a core.  Will you please tell the poor manipulated masses in Consone who those players are and if they are in Absa?

Speaking of KP, I read his post in response to your praise.  I read 9 paragraphs vaguely discussing the history of Illy and the genesis of the current situation is summed up with "they acted like ass holes".  Superficially, it seems insightful, but then I thought about what it said and it wasn't really insightful.  Why is it that H? members will not examine the details of the genesis of the current conflict?


RHY was negotiating (if you don't shed more light on the meaning and context of this word in this part of the conflict then this isn't really meant to be a fair discussion) and Messer sent troops, and told RHY troops were coming (is this agreed on), RHY left the troops there because Messer had no right to do that.  It all went from there because Absa wouldn't negotiate.  It seems to be a big deal that Messer wasn't in SkB.  It seems to be a big deal that Messer and the big guys in Consone did not transfer to SkB like Phym did before sending troops.  Is that Absa and Consone's biggest mistake?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 05:37
As a newish player, I think HM's post contained some interesting points.

Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

You didn't know about our close relationship with RHY, so you felt free to presumptuously assign blame to them, satisfying your thirst for an honorable position that gets to perform some theatrical moral objection.

Do H? members not know who their own secret allies are?  I thought the allies were just supposed to be secret to outsiders?  Some kinda...double-secret allies?  This seems like one potential downside to non-public relationships.

Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

The position you're taking is one that finds fault with the blasting cap in this explosion while ignoring all the actual payload.

I'm not sure this analogy did you much service.  I guess you must be talking about some sort of payload that is inherently unstable, and the blasting cap is only necessary for a more reliable detonation?  I don't really know anything about explosives, but I just watched the episode of Mythbusters where they tried/failed to detonate C4 using everything but a blasting cap.  

Isn't it kind of like saying it's the guns fault if you shoot someone?  I mean, I guess technically you couldn't "shoot" someone (with a gun) if you didn't have a gun.  But likewise, guns don't usually go around shooting people themselves.

Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

Maybe you need to review who we are as an alliance.  Keeping the powder wet is simply not our priority.  Quite the opposite, burning it off before it's too big to contain is.

Can I quote you on this?  I mean, again?  Some other time(s)/place(s)?  I hear from other people's forum signatures that you're quite quotable, and I found this excerpt particularly illuminating.


Edited by Darmon - 16 Oct 2012 at 05:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 06:15
Although i agree with some of your points regarding the absa and rhy situation and see that you have taken your own quotes from the Consone thread, i do feel that it was wrong of you to voice your opinions and views against your own alliance.  

At the end of they day, they were your fellow team mates and your allegiance should of been with them first and foremost regardless of how much you wanted to speak your mind.

Anyway, all the best with your new endeavours 




Edited by STAR - 16 Oct 2012 at 06:16
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