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Azreil View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2011 at 06:18

Hi HM,

With an effort to be succinct, and from both a personal and a leadership standpoint, please understand the following:

1. We the Valar did not and do not intend to malign the honor of H and wage any form of "slander war" against it.

2. We did not, have not, nor intended to insult H?

3. The exact nature of our complaint has already been directed via petition to the game devs.

4. We respect and shall abide by the decision and position of the game developers with respect to its definition of an "exploit."

5. By posting in this forum, I believe that we are no longer complaining but just responding and presenting our side of the story in a forum which you have started.

6. My personal post in this thread and the posts of Dakota, duQ and Boromir are legitimate opinions and free expressions of feedback about an aspect of the game which we shall leave to the game devs to sort out. 

7. Insinuating against our character just because we are expressing our own opinions is hitting below the belt already. I could just hope we respect each other's opinion rather than resort to such "character attacks."

8. I believe that the merits and demerits of balance and coherence in the game are something that could be discussed in the realms of debate and game improvement, which I do not wish nor have to time nor mastery to be engaging in.

9. We have expressed our "distaste" for your tactic. Now you are expressing your own distaste of our expressing our distaste. So i guess we are now even.

10. You said you will not begrudge us beyond the tournament. Similarly here, we will not begrudge H? All part of the game, as everyone is wont to say. 

11. This shall be my final post as far as this topic is concerned. I don't relish the rhetoric either.


Best regards,


Azreil






Edited by Azreil - 04 May 2011 at 07:11
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Llyorn Of Jaensch View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2011 at 00:36
Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

Originally posted by GM Stormcrow GM Stormcrow wrote:

We feel absolutely 100% that this is not an exploit...It's a clever, legitimate use of an ingame mechanic to hamper a competitor's tournament progress.


1.You don't like it. 

2.Do legions of giant rats taunt you and recite Vogon poetry in the town square? 

3. But not a single attempt has been made yet to actually respond to any of my original points by explaining, in factual terms, how a problem actually exists and how Valar have been mistreated.  And it's no surprise, for you simply have not been.


Simply put VALAR, (IMO) this is simply a case of sour grapes. You wish us to conduct the tournament on your terms (whereby you have the distinct advantage) and we, not surprisingly, differ in opinion.

Calling into question our honour and questioning our conduct in this matter is childish, petty, factually incorrect and frankly says more about the character of the accuser than the accused.

Post Script: That Vogon poetry line kills me. We love our Mule. Clap
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2011 at 23:07
Azreil, our tactic may or may not work as intended.  At this point, it appears you've catalyzed your members well with enough righteous fury to hold the lead.  Whatever the means, may the best alliance win.  That will probably be Valar, and I shall be the first to congratulate you all.  And I appreciate your distaste for having faced an unexpected form of opposition.  But I very much take exception to continued attempts, by yourself and others who speak for your alliance, to brand it as "a questionable exploit."

Originally posted by GM Stormcrow GM Stormcrow wrote:

We feel absolutely 100% that this is not an exploit...It's a clever, legitimate use of an ingame mechanic to hamper a competitor's tournament progress.


Calling it an exploit is a smear with no purpose but to wage a slander war and encourage negative opinions toward us.  Doing so will have no influence on the outcome of the tournament, and I doubt it sways the opinions in other alliances either.  You don't like it.  Fair enough.  Anti-Harmless propaganda that elegantly dances around inconvenient facts has likely been a valuable tool to motivate the membership.  But persisting with this already refuted slur in public only shows everyone else your character.  Simply put, you color our name with blatantly false and only thinly veiled accusations, and you do so completely without justification or even purpose, save to falsely besmirch our honor.  We have not earned this insult.  I will not bear any grudge regarding this, but you should realize exactly what you are doing and that we recognize it for what it is.

So, setting aside this implied and unfounded insult, can you please clarify the exact nature of your complaint?  You say we have "disturbed such coherence and balance."  What exactly is now unbalanced?  You speak of fearing this becoming a normal acceptable thing in the game."  What exactly is wrong with that?  Attacking and sieging cities is one of the core, intrinsic mechanics of the game--very much intentionally so.  So also is the use of diplomats to kill commanders, steal resources, find out about the strength of your army encampments, etc--even with difficulty, sometimes near impossibility, in uncovering the aggressor.  Who will be the defenseless victims plagued by "legions camping nearby?" 

Suppose there actually is someone negatively impacted by an enemy employing this tactic.  Heck, I'll even offer an example of how it might matter at all: perhaps someone with an incoming siege attack will ensure legions stick around to help him defend an adjacent tile.  Whatever the case, any "victim" has the freedom to seek redress according to whatever offense or grudge he bears, as he would for an offense by any other means.  Game mechanics don't kill people, people kill people.

The most pivotal question in all this is the premise no one in Valar has even attempted to address, and without it you have no case whatsoever:

What harm was done?

Are your cities in rubble?  Have your armies been poisoned?  Have you been robbed of some thing you were entitled to attain?  Is all that you've built in this game suddenly for naught?  Do legions of giant rats taunt you and recite Vogon poetry in the town square?  We have altered the progress of the tournament, as is the very thing we're supposed to try to do when losing.

There have been great volumes of talk, rhetoric, and outpouring of anguish.  Far more in fact than I could possibly have imagined coming from a very simple attempt to merely slow down a competitor.  But not a single attempt has been made yet to actually respond to any of my original points by explaining, in factual terms, how a problem actually exists and how Valar have been mistreated.  And it's no surprise, for you simply have not been.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2011 at 21:12
Originally posted by Azreil Azreil wrote:

a.  The legion-locker tactic is actually not a clever nor an effective tactic to clinch the advantage in this tournament.

I assume you realise that no one in H? is going to argue with you here? It's no skin off our back if you think our tactics are poor.
 
b.  I think that H? considered it "clever" when it thought that it had hegemony over the idea, during the time that it thought no one would else would be "clever" enough to think of the same.
 
No one else did think of the same. The reason everyone knows about it now is because H? has demonstrated it in use. I always heard that imitation was the greatest form of flattery.

d. And H? resorting to the use of the tactic has disturbed such coherence and balance in the tournament.

Yes we did disturb the balance. That was our intention. And "The Balance" that you speak of is the one where VALAR was confortably sailing unopposed towards certain victory.
 
e.  I will also agree with the observation that the tactic somehow solidified the Valar more and that in the end, we the Valar will look back at this opportunity of having locked horns with H? in this intellectual debate and the mental battles behind this tournament.

And we do agree on something. This has indeed allowed two competitors in this tournament to enter into a more direct form of competition. This also was our intention. Competition is fun. Farming is not.
 
 
Cheers to you our worthy opponents!  Keep up the good hunt. The tournament is not yet done. 

Likewise. You guys are more than worthy opponents. This tourny has been fun so far and maybe it will get even more exciting towards the end. Who knows? VALAR knows?


I gotta admit I will be glad when this is over too regardless of the result. It'll be nice getting a bunch of free-time back!


Edited by Createure - 03 May 2011 at 21:13
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Azreil View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2011 at 20:04
To HM, Creature and the Mighty H? Alliance,
 
Just some quick comments :
 
a.  The legion-locker tactic is actually not a clever nor an effective tactic to clinch the advantage in this tournament.  It diverts an alliance's effort from hunting to locking the legions, in futility. Very much like the tactic of  setting encampments outside Boromir's cities to prevent the animal  spawns and similarly futile. Unless you have players who have the patience to saturate every possible square.
 
b.  I think that H? considered it "clever" when it thought that it had hegemony over the idea, during the time that it thought no one would else would be "clever" enough to think of the same.
 
c.   I personally welcomed H? resorting to such tactic because  for me, it misled them to believing that it will be able to turn the tide in its favor because of this "clever" idea, diverting necessary focus, wasting precious opportunity.  Well the tournment is not yet over, it may just turn the tide who knows only H? knows.
 
d.  But I could understand the disappointment of my VALAR buddies like Dakota, duQ and Boromir because they see the game from a deeper perspective which involves mechanics and rules and coherence. And H? resorting to the use of the tactic has disturbed such coherence and balance in the tournament. And it has allowed a questionable exploit to now become a normal acceptable thing in the game. So after the tournament, when we notice some non-disappearing legions in our neighborhood we just say "ah its okey somebody is just being kind enough to lock them there for days and days on end. Now lets track where they are coming from so that we could siege them out of the game."  And so gameplay  evolves in a way that we believe was never the intention.  Well I am exaggerating but I hope you get my gist....
 
e.  I will also agree with the observation that the tactic somehow solidified the Valar more and that in the end, we the Valar will look back at this opportunity of having locked horns with H? in this intellectual debate and the mental battles behind this tournament.
 
 
Cheers to you our worthy opponents!  Keep up the good hunt. The tournament is not yet done. 
 
:) 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2011 at 17:50
I'm not even sure that we were having an argument.

But Dakota: You just lost it
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2011 at 17:37
Dakota, I'm going to do even better.  I'll let someone with a neutral point of view respond to you.

And Godwin...classy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2011 at 17:35
HonoredMule, I am sorry if I hurt your feelings.  But you are acting like a typical politician that will not address an issue, when the facts are not on their side.  Instead of addressing the arguments I made in my post, where I addressed each of the points you made; you instead attack the messenger.

If all you can do is attack me, instead of the subject on hand, then you do not give much credence to your credibility.  However, all will think better of you, if you can actually address the points I have made.

And trying to make excuses, that because the Valar have redoubled our efforts to counter your tactics, does not mean no offense has occurred.  I wonder how you would react if someone other than yourself were to say that.  It would be like saying that it didn't matter that Nazi Germany bombed civilians in London, because they lost the war in the end, so no harm was done.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2011 at 17:29
If anything... 99% of diplo interference is directed against the top 4 VALAR players in this tournament anyways. Handicapping the 4% of the VALAR alliance that was providing 50% of their total parts simply forces you guys to work as a team instead of depending on 4 dedicated and skilled players to bring you free prizes.

Infact I would have alot more sympathy for Dakota's anger if he was one of those 4 players.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2011 at 17:17
Boromir, I have read and considered what you have had to say to my fellow directors, for you spoke well and intelligently even in your anger.  As for Dakota's post, I refer you both to our alliance profile.  "He who would speak, speak well and be heard."

I have no compunction to absorb a nearly endless wave of vitriol and sour grapes.  There is but one blindly asserted premise in the whole sermon anyway, that locking tiles is viciously evil for reasons completely unspecified.

While Harmless tires ever more of the taxing attention required to launch dozens of armies on a regular schedule not of our choosing, Valar's numerous ranks have been catalyzed by this event, redoubling their efforts and showing more consistent activity.  When this is over, you'll all have a very hard time explaining exactly what offense was committed other than making you work a little harder to keep your lead.  Sorry for presenting a challenge?
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