Play Now Login Create Account
illyriad
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - The State of the Community
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedThe State of the Community

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345>
Author
 Rating: Topic Rating: 1 Votes, Average 5.00  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Rill View Drop Down
Postmaster General
Postmaster General
Avatar
Player Council - Geographer

Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 7078
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2014 at 01:07
I agree with a lot of what Anjire said.  I think it's possible that part of the problem is growing pains of Illyriad Ltd. as the operation becomes more complex.  It seems like the choice has been to create a layer of bureaucracy to "protect" the developers from the burden of dealing with players.  

From the point of view of a busy CEO, this makes sense.  However, sometimes it doesn't seem that the manner in which this has been implemented is consistent with the spirit in which Stormcrow and ThunderCat have interacted with the community in the past.

Having a community manager (focusing on that part of the role alone) can have a number of goals such as 1) engaging the community and providing more hands-on attention than a busy administrator and/or coder can do and 2) freeing up the top executives to focus on the roles that return the most value for the company (and the players).  These are really good goals, and things that likely need to happen.  And to some degree, they are happening now.

The question is, is this being done as effectively as possible?  And if not, how can it be more effective?

I am sure that Stormcrow, Rikoo and others ask themselves these questions daily.  I would hope that Illyriad players are seen as a resource and not a barrier, a source of solutions rather than a source of problems to be solved, as the Illyriad team moves forward.

We really do want to help.
Back to Top
Lwyllyn View Drop Down
Wordsmith
Wordsmith
Avatar

Joined: 03 Mar 2013
Location: Humboldt
Status: Offline
Points: 119
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2014 at 01:34
GM Rikoo- the entire issue at hand is about communications between GMs and players. So what are you saying? It's not as if I am trying to start an uprising against you, I am merely telling illy that everything you do has GM Stormcrow's full support. Whether we like it or not. Love it or leave it.

Why was my first post deleted? And why were my IGMs ignored? <--- honest question seeks honest answer.

My entire alliance is a bit up in arms over this. I have been trying to talk an alliance mate out of quitting, prognosis not good. Another alliance mate clicked 'abandon' today- We were too late for him. And folks are attempting to talk me out of quitting, prognosis also not good.

Remember when we used to try to talk our friends into joining illyriad?
Back to Top
Angrim View Drop Down
Postmaster General
Postmaster General
Avatar

Joined: 02 Nov 2011
Location: Laoshin
Status: Offline
Points: 1212
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2014 at 01:43
Originally posted by Lwyllyn Lwyllyn wrote:

It's not as if I am trying to start an uprising against you, I am merely telling illy that everything you do has GM Stormcrow's full support.
GM Rikoo will have GM SC's full support just as GM Luna had GM SC's full support. it is absolutely essential that the community manager have the full support of the company; if that support were ever perceived to waver as a result of player pressure, the community manager position would lose all authority. if one frames one's argument as a contest with the community manager, one should expect to lose the argument. as a matter of strategy, players should find another way to approach whatever problem they are seeking to address.
Back to Top
KillerPoodle View Drop Down
Postmaster General
Postmaster General
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 1853
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2014 at 02:09
Originally posted by Angrim Angrim wrote:

It is absolutely essential that the community manager have the full support of the company.


I agree but I also believe the flip side which is that it's also essential that the company have the full support of the player community, specifically the vets, rather than relying on fresh meat to keep them afloat.

There is also that old saying about power and corruption.
"This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM

"a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill
Back to Top
abstractdream View Drop Down
Postmaster General
Postmaster General
Avatar

Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Location: TEXAS Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 1865
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2014 at 02:46
As a player of Illyriad, I want to add my two cents worth to this discussion.

There have always been (as far I have seen, for 2 & 1/2 years now) players with complaints and gripes about the "unfairness" of the rules or the way those rules have been applied to themselves specifically or someone they know. I think it's safe to say that is just the way it is and ever will be. The majority of us just ignore that and play as usual.

I can't really attest to the way GC is now because I rarely venture into it, but in the past I saw morons, smart ass know-it-alls, kids acting like kids and apparent adults acting like kids, players who had nothing better to do than antagonize everyone around them and the occasional entertainers. It was a hodgepodge of people and honestly, rarely held my attention for more than a few minutes. Now, whenever I venture into GC it's to say hi to players I know and thats about it. I truly don't find anything of value about it and would likely not notice if it were discontinued. The community manager can ban whoever he wants from GC and I wont notice. He can delete whatever forum posts he pleases and I wont care. I believe that is the majority view. I could be wrong but I doubt it.

Now, as for the Dev-player relationship, I have been as patient as anyone, I suppose however it is becoming glaringly obvious that TBL is way over due, there hasn't been any sort of major release at all for well over a year and there hasn't been a tournament in months and months and months. There have been new players come and go for some time now and nothing new has come online since the release of Trade 2.0. We have been teased for years about so many great things and I do understand the problems that are popping up to keep them away but it is frustrating. Pathfinding, Battle Magik (which, I can only assume many of the useless crafting materials are meant for) and an improved chat/IGM system are a few of the things I would like to see but it seems less and less likely that they will ever happen. I guess the biggest mistake the Devs made was revealing things before they were ready. It was interesting but now it's just sad.

Having said all that, Illyriad is a free, browser based game, with so much depth that it has held my attention five times longer than World of Warcraft did, the game I played longer than any other before Illy. What the Devs have created is a wonder of online games. It has allowed myself and others of a similar mindset to get together and become as close as online gamers could ever be. I call us a family. While that could be seen as absurd by outsiders, it is as near the truth as digitally allowable. If Illy never has another update and stays exactly as it is now, it will be enough.
Bonfyr Verboo
Back to Top
Brandmeister View Drop Down
Postmaster General
Postmaster General
Avatar

Joined: 12 Oct 2012
Location: Laoshin
Status: Offline
Points: 2396
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2014 at 02:53
Under normal conditions, I think it's possible to have a sensible disagreement between developers and customers without resorting to either player invective or GM censorship. However, it is undeniable that players have grown heated in their opinions over time, as major gameplay problems dragged on. Cities were destroyed via the exodus bug, armies misplaced, sov issues remained tangled, and other problems were encountered with no apparent response. Patient discourse requires trust. After a certain amount of time, players will resort to invective, and GMs will be forced to censorship. When players have invested real money via prestige, their threshold for impatience falls rapidly (and it should).

For the record, the community manager rarely deserves the heat. But they are the front line of customer service, and that does tend to make them a lightning rod for discontent.
Back to Top
Malek View Drop Down
Forum Warrior
Forum Warrior
Avatar

Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 252
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2014 at 04:40
Originally posted by Brandmeister Brandmeister wrote:



For the record, the community manager rarely deserves the heat. But they are the front line of customer service, and that does tend to make them a lightning rod for discontent.

AS the first line of defense for the Devs, being hired for the particular skill in managing a community, it is a given that a pre-requisite skill for the position is the effective management of people, hence the term Manager. Respect in any situation needs to be earnt and can never be commanded. Censoring people for disagreeing with you or arguing with you is exceptionally adolescent like behaviour. 

One thing that has been showcased is the influx of newbies, this would have more to do with the demise of LoU rather than any effective marketing campaign and I am not sure how long those new players are hanging around. 

One thing that needs to be made clear, you may just call us "Gamers" the reality of it is that the majority of people in this game are not only mature aged, a lot of them are also professionals (i.e accountants, engineers, doctors etc), we enjoy playing this game immensely, we have the disposable income to throw around on frivolous things like games which also means we can also throw it at something else. Which personally I have already done, the money that I could have spent on prestige went to Star Citizen and that game is not even finished yet. 

That points out another issue, no one cares that broken lands is not out. I have said this before, keeping us informed on your progress, what has happened, any issues that you have encountered in coding or bugs is what people like to see. This is a digitial product we cant see it being built like a traditional house or building, in lieu of that, we need to be able to see what is being done could be pictures or simulated movements on youtube to watch, anything like that we dont care just FEED us. 

You want the invective against GM's to stop? You want players to play nice? You want everything to be hunky dory? Then you have to work at it, it is what we pay you for in the purchasing of prestige, we are bored, we are frustrated. You should be very proud of the fact that there is a very loyal customer base here that has stuck around playing this game, though the number of those loyal customers still here is starting to decline. As Anjire stated the community is put on show when it needs to be for game reviews and such, what happens if we are not around? You have the release of Broken Lands coming out eventually and you will be using its release to target a whole new lot of players, I hope you have a business plan for the release of BL, if you dont get one, if you do, you will need the current player base to assist the new people playing the game, in how it all comes together and what not as the Devs wont be around to introduce them to the game like they did when it started. If nobody wants to help the new players in BL, then player retention will be non existent there.  

It is always cheaper to retain a customer than it is to attract a new one.  
Back to Top
Lwyllyn View Drop Down
Wordsmith
Wordsmith
Avatar

Joined: 03 Mar 2013
Location: Humboldt
Status: Offline
Points: 119
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2014 at 05:27
I agree that the players who are active in GC are the minority. Most players log in, work their build and production queues, dispatch gatherers, and log out. Those players almost never come into contact with a DEV, even one who is on as often as GM Rikoo. And some almost never even come into contact with other players. This discussion isn't really for those players. It's the same as those talks about who is razing too many of their enemy's cities. It affects those who have a direct interest in the matter, and the rest don't care.

Some players are in chat every time you log in. Some are liked, some are loved, and some are despised. This is the community that is affected by negative player-developer relations. These are the folks who do care. If you love your alliance, but it is being torn apart from within, then your AC would not be having uplifting convos. Fortunately, the Fellowship is a close family with a harmonious AC. But the community in GC is like my second alliance, and i am seeing a decline in participation. Partly from vets leaving, from disgusted players turning GC off, and partly because folks are afraid that their normal banter will get them banned.

The outpouring of support I have gotten in this matter- both from my alliance and from my friends in GC has blown my mind. It also proves (at least, to me) that there is hope for our community. We are not perfect. My role in this issue isn't perfect. I made a valid point in GC to GM Rikoo, concerning his interpretation of the CoC. What caused him to silence me was... well, admittedly, I could have worded it better. More to the point, I probably could not have worded it worse. But why censor for a week when a 'Hey, Lwyllyn, don't be an ass!' would suffice? We all need that reminder once in a while, don't we?

That said- the fact that this thread has more participants than just me and GM Rikoo seems to show that there is an underlying issue, and not just one isolated incident with one lone player.
And for one lone player of 18 months in GC so far, the thought of clicking 'abandon' is akin to moving 8000 miles from your family and friends and throwing your phone in the ocean. Not a decision all of us can take lightly.

GM Rikoo: while my opinion of how GC has been handled recently has not changed, I do recognize that my comment in GC was out of line, and my handling of the matter through IGMs, the petition, and my more hostile forum posts was all wrong. I once mildly opined to you that you should relax. I failed to take my own advice here, and made a mess.
     ...And now to really surprise everyone:

GM Rikoo, my actions to this point have been out of line. Please accept my sincere apology, and my promise to let you do your job in peace. And please get something positive out of this; I did.
Back to Top
Myll View Drop Down
New Poster
New Poster


Joined: 25 Jul 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 25
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2014 at 06:19
I applaud the move Lwyllyn made in her apology.

My two cents on the community as a whole: we are getting many new players, and this trend will continue on through the month of May when Lords of Ultima (LoU) shuts down, regardless other marketing efforts.  We need to embrace the new players and welcome them in - many are experienced gamers and will be great for the game.  I have said this many times: the first 24-48 hours are critical to Retention of new players.

GM Rikoo: Illyriad needs folks like you.  Your motivation to hold events is a breath of fresh air and you will always have both strong points and weaker points.  Your strong point is definitely in pushing these new events to create something new and keep things lively.  With increased numbers in this game, maybe one day we can get a 2nd community manager/assistant to help balance your workload.  

One thing all of us need to remember is that the game company behind Illyriad is still maturing (much as Rill said earlier), but that doesn't mean they have the ability to go hire lots of folks to manage individual issues (yet).  They're all multi-tasking, as we see, although some in our community complain more than others as to what tasks in that list should be prioritized more than others.

Critical changes needed: At the top of the list should be work toward new chat rooms; the game needs additional chat rooms beyond Global Chat (GC).  Player Retention should be considered - a new default GC that allows any player to enter, even one who just registered and may be initially plodding along with the tutorial, should stay the default.  However, we need other "Trade" and/or "Diplomacy" rooms also where sidebars can go to leave GC for a more detailed conversation along those lines.  Having new players in my alliance, I hear lots of fresh ideas, and some players are surprised especially at no Trade Channel for those who would rather have a Social process to Trading things in the game.  And consider - you must have a Trader to be capable of buying and selling the more recently added resources: minerals, herbs, and anatomies, and resultant crafted items.  A new player short of a Trader has no other option but to be social and attempt to sell in a Global Chat, as consideration.

Myll
Back to Top
Coltaine Blackwing View Drop Down
Greenhorn
Greenhorn


Joined: 28 Jul 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 74
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2014 at 07:07
As someone who frequently shuts off GC entirely, I have to say that I don't care about much of what Malek has said.

My reason is not invective against the GMs. The people who frequent GC can claim to be mature adults all they like. Maybe they are outside the game, but what I see these days more and more is what abstractdream said. People can blame the GMs, but everyone is responsible for their own behavior and the level of vitriol in GC is appalling. Rikoo has become a target since he showed up, and he did nothing to deserve it. It's just all degenerated since then, but the point is this: the players struck first.

It's not just directed at the GMs, either. Between the wars, personal attacks and people intentionally bringing up real life topics they know are controversial and forbidden, GC is almost constantly setting a poor example to new players and alienating vets. I'm disgusted by the fact that they now complain about being silenced for repeatedly bringing negativity into GC without offering anything else to justify their presence on chat. Anything else a person may do in the game with an alliance or friends is irrelevant when speaking to the community as a whole. The real truth is that the attitudes of the players have driven more people from GC and Illy than anything the GMs could possibly do.

There are plenty of other venues for you to make your voices heard that won't drag down the community even further. I don't much care if other people are happy with the game or not at this point. Just keep it off GC. You've done more than enough damage as it is.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.