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SugarFree 
Forum Warrior
Joined: 09 Feb 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 350
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 Posted: 08 Jul 2012 at 11:26 |
well he may be rude, unlike me (lol) but he IS right. the peace coated illy exists cause the mighty ALLOW it to.
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Darkwords
Postmaster General
Joined: 23 May 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 1005
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Posted: 08 Jul 2012 at 11:26 |
 Rorgash wrote:
you dont know what justice means then, the very word of it. justice does not = right
lets to a nice litle mind blast, if a person brutally murders someone, that person should go to jail right? well that person has a weapon and if you dont plan on using some kind of force im pretty sure they wont just follow you, and so without force justice will never be carried out.
also something that no one was told but that person killed that person because she/he was beating and abusing and nearly killing Him/her. Soo even if you use force and destroy this persons life was YOUR justice Right?
Rules and Laws arent always right... and if you are so naive to spout words about Law and justice needing be served, I will make a law for you, you are not allowed population size over 500 pop.
Anyone can make rules and laws, only the mighty ones can enforce them to give them meaning beyond the words.
New law, anyone that posts after this will get attacked by the person who posted naive sh*t about weaklings being able to rule the strong.
Edit, i think i just forgot, to to make it simple, JUSTICE is getting back at someone for having done something. its not the RIGHT things, its not the WRONG thing, if someone punches me I can BY MY RIGHT punch them back, thats justice. paying someone back for something, either by money if you are the one in debt or in some other way.
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Actually Justice is always right, that is taking it on its litteral and philosophical meaning. In Justice you access each individual action aswell as its motivations and final effects, you then assess any harm done and aptly set a sentence or take punitive action against the wrong-doer. What you are talking about is not Justice, but retaliation from the strong and powerfull to the weak. However I do agree with your point that rules and laws are not always right, but this is due to the fact that rules and laws do not make justice. In reference to you statement about the weaklings being able to rule the strong, of course they can, if the strong are in such a minority and the weaklings are organised into one majority group.
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Rorgash
Postmaster
Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 894
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Posted: 08 Jul 2012 at 11:34 |
Darkwords wrote:
In reference to you statement about the weaklings being able to rule the strong, of course they can, if the strong are in such a minority and the weaklings are organised into one majority group.
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making them the powerful no?
I dont feel me having to sit in jail or die because i killed someone is right, so its not right to me, right and wrong is opinion based, so you can never win on that argument.
( my other post will be deleted and i will get a warning any minute im sure)
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SugarFree
Forum Warrior
Joined: 09 Feb 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 350
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Posted: 08 Jul 2012 at 11:44 |
( now i may blow my cover with this statement, but whatever..) true justice is subjective. the awareness of justice is filtered trough culture and environment, so the personal feelings about what is the most "just" course of action in response to whatever offense is different from person to person. Law and such are here to compromise between the different ways of thinking to get something that is acceptable for the majority of the members of a society. now, with all respect for the most cuddly and hug happy among us, illy is still a game where you can actually enforce "law" if you have enough power to back it up. what the weak can do is mostly bark laud about their "right" and "freedom", but actually, you live in this peaceful server just by chance. yes. Happens that for once the ones that came out on top of the first great "clash of powers" where the community happy people, instead of the dark overlords that take pleasure in demoting and humiliating people. now now... it's fine and all to not be straight jerkish, but there is also a limit on how sugarcoated this shall get. thieves are a tool. a tool can be used in many ways, just like a knife... use it to cut bread it's a good use.. use it to stab someone it's a bad use. now.. if people decide "rules" about how game mechanics shall or shall not be used you take away the freedom of other to play how they want. ( by "people " i talk about the few chosen that actually have an account here and care to make up this pile of crap, not the Kk of users that play non caring about the forum or whatever) a skilled thieve can, whit his skills alone, set things peacefully with his victim, if he has enough tact and finesse to compromise something that works for both. obviously, this is only possible with both sides being somewhat flexible and capable of compromise a peaceful resolution.
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Gilthoniel
Forum Warrior
Joined: 11 Oct 2011
Location: Cuiviénen
Status: Offline
Points: 211
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Posted: 08 Jul 2012 at 14:06 |
SugarFree wrote:
true justice is subjective... ... a skilled thief can, with his skills alone, set things peacefully with his victim, if he has enough tact and finesse to compromise something that works for both. obviously, this is only possible with both sides being somewhat flexible and capable of compromise a peaceful resolution. |
This just about sums up the situation for me also. Any attempt to regulate theft with "fixed penalties" for all those caught will not only kill an exciting aspect of the game, but have further ramifications for gameplay in alliances who would have to resolve the situation of a thief being caught . That is part of the fun of Illyriad and a necessary part of buildling, administrating and developing alliance strategy. sandbox=sandbox=sandbox. Care bears and others who want police how the game is played should learn how to appreciate the wonderful mechanics that the devs have made available to us ...otherwise the trap door is  that way
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Wolfgangvondi
Wordsmith
Joined: 04 Sep 2011
Location: Orc Grand Arena
Status: Offline
Points: 106
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Posted: 08 Jul 2012 at 14:32 |
Hadus wrote:
Personally, my first attempt would be to ally with the theiving player. They're obviously willing to risk their tail for gain against other players. That kind of daring could make them a useful companion some day. Example: Months later you get in a conflict with someone else. You message the player who theived you: "Hey, there's this guy hassling me, and I just so happened to have cleared out all his runes. I know you like thieving..." and, well you get the idea. If that doesn't work I would turn to my alliance or, only if I was unallied, the GC, to help me negotiate a fair repayment based on how hard and often they hit me, how experienced they are at the game, etc. Personally I think the important thing with all hostile actions AND their rebuttals is purpose. At one extreme, we have the PvP-hungry whiners who desire open PvP along the lines of Log In>click World Map> think "Hm, what random player below my population shall I attack for fun today?" At the other we have "White Knights" in Illy who jump into incidents that they have no business in and even less to gain from as the initial offender had in attacking. On both sides of these conflicts, we have players engaging in military and diplomatic actions that offer them no significant gain other than to satisfy an urge, just because they can. The PvP whiners fight to satisfy their need for conflict and competition, the White Knights their desire for peace and heroism. Does it really make one side better than the other just because one is fighting for "justice" and another for "action"? Fortunately, I think most Illy players do not fall on either extreme but occupy moderate areas of the spectrum, and most actions are fueled by purpose. |
Hadus, from a very old Orc, that is around almost since illy itself: totaly agree whit you! A shame you are not a Orc... well, at least you are not an elf : P
Edited by Wolfgangvondi - 08 Jul 2012 at 14:33
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Hadus
Postmaster
Joined: 28 Jun 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 545
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Posted: 08 Jul 2012 at 15:52 |
Wolfgangvondi wrote:
Hadus wrote:
Personally, my first attempt would be to ally with the theiving player. They're obviously willing to risk their tail for gain against other players. That kind of daring could make them a useful companion some day. Example: Months later you get in a conflict with someone else. You message the player who theived you: "Hey, there's this guy hassling me, and I just so happened to have cleared out all his runes. I know you like thieving..." and, well you get the idea. If that doesn't work I would turn to my alliance or, only if I was unallied, the GC, to help me negotiate a fair repayment based on how hard and often they hit me, how experienced they are at the game, etc. Personally I think the important thing with all hostile actions AND their rebuttals is purpose. At one extreme, we have the PvP-hungry whiners who desire open PvP along the lines of Log In>click World Map> think "Hm, what random player below my population shall I attack for fun today?" At the other we have "White Knights" in Illy who jump into incidents that they have no business in and even less to gain from as the initial offender had in attacking. On both sides of these conflicts, we have players engaging in military and diplomatic actions that offer them no significant gain other than to satisfy an urge, just because they can. The PvP whiners fight to satisfy their need for conflict and competition, the White Knights their desire for peace and heroism. Does it really make one side better than the other just because one is fighting for "justice" and another for "action"? Fortunately, I think most Illy players do not fall on either extreme but occupy moderate areas of the spectrum, and most actions are fueled by purpose. |
Hadus, from a very old Orc, that is around almost since illy itself: totaly agree whit you! A shame you are not a Orc... well, at least you are not an elf : P
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The more I play, the more I realize I should have been an orc. Ah well, perhaps I can write up a backstory where my gread grandfather was actually a well-respected orc who settled down in old age and married a human...or something like that. Or maybe I'll stop by the Horde and say hi? I just want to clarify that in my original post I was not referring to protecting new players or being mass-theived. Both of those actions have plenty of purpose and incentive for the people involved. I was more referring to the infrequent but inpractical acts of (A) attacking players for fun without considering the risk-benefit analysis (and how to minimize the risk portion), as well as (B) defending players to the extreme, even if those players are perfectly capable of protecting themself and the damage done has not impeded the victim's overall progression in the game.
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Subatoi
Forum Warrior
Joined: 01 Mar 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 380
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Posted: 08 Jul 2012 at 16:38 |
Hmm yes,
once I realized that I error'ed in replying to Hadus's post I quickly sent a forum message to him, explaining my position on the matter and with his quick reply we both realized we had the near same ideas. So a manner of initial confusion as to what the other was saying, but all is well now.
Edited by Subatoi - 09 Jul 2012 at 20:54
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Hadus
Postmaster
Joined: 28 Jun 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 545
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Posted: 08 Jul 2012 at 16:47 |
Subatoi wrote:
mm yeah we cleared up the confusion in our PM's. I read your first reply but didn't really see what you were trying to say, oh well the PM's cleared it up. |
Yep, the post above your was more to clear up a couple other replies from other posters. If you didn't get what I was saying, I'm sure someone else is confused as well.
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Mafro
Forum Warrior
Joined: 01 Apr 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 312
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Posted: 08 Jul 2012 at 22:01 |
Thanks to all who have taken the poll...very interesting results! If I could summarize, it seems: - 1/3 of respondents are in favor of no punishment - either ignoring thefts or simply seeking the return of what was stolen (I imagine this most likely represents the Illy thieving contingent, and quite likely my particular thief and any of his supporters)
- 1/3 of respondents are in favor of some sort of punitive measure
- Half of these, or 1/6 of respondents, support a "reasonable" penalty of 3x recompense
- Half of these, or 1/6 of respondents, support a serious smack-down penalty of 10x recompense or death
- 1/3 of respondents were more nuanced in their approach, with the circumstances or motives behind the theft being important. I would characterize most of the explanations as being "if the thief is new or the theft justified, show mercy...if not, exact scathing retribution".
This has been a great barometer for the response to my own painful situation  , as described in my earlier TL;DR post. It has also confirmed to me that the vast majority of players in my situation would feel justified seeing that action was taken to ensure that strong punitive measures were carried out against the thief.
Thanks again to everyone for humoring this poll!
Mafro
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The Proper Punishment for Thieves