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Topic Closedthe nature of the crows

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Wolfgangvondi View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2013 at 17:05
Come on... every one Knows the crows are evil. And every one know's there's only thing to do. crush them to oblivion! 
Just stop to think for an minute: 

1. Ther banner is a crow. Crows are as every one knows, in nature, littel pesky thiefs ... 
 In symbolism signs of death or evil.

2. They attacked me when i was an littel Orc, just cuz i was attaking repeatably an crow member to "farm" him. Yes they did ask me first to stop it. But they still attaked me when i refuse to stop. And after they clean my troops out, and after i surrender(agree to stop attaking.. oky i was out of troops by them)   they send an gift (of more tham i stole and lose in the fights all together). The gift was ofc to humiliate me. The bastards.

3. Normally when ther is an incident somewhere, somehow, and alliances start to jump in to start a mutch mutch larger conflict, crows stays out. (The nerve of them thinking that they can simply go on ther business and ignore the "world". )

4. They are many, and like it was already said, The human condition (even if they think that they are birds) demands that for that alone they are evil, OR theres like two or three elements among them that are evil and so, we must squatch them! Preaty much what happens when you are the top alliance whit the bigger armys... same thing. Lot of number = evil. Lot of Armys = evil, Number one = evil. I just love this logic, makes things simple for us Orcs.

5. They are keeping me here against my will. Please come save me! It may be others, so be prepared.

6.Don't say to any of them that i said this.

note:
This are my opinions and my opinions alone, others in crows or otherwise might already have been brainwash and really think that we can still manege to have the crow family in illy and not totally ruin the entire game for each and every one that does not goes in the sunset cawing...  the fools. lets crush them too.


Edited by Wolfgangvondi - 08 Oct 2013 at 17:10

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Brandmeister View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2013 at 17:06
Originally posted by abstractdream abstractdream wrote:

Interesting point, Kumomoto. I think I did not understand your reservations before. The problem, as you see it (if I read your post right) is that some players will perpetrate unsavory actions under cover of the confederation, basically abusing the relationship. The "victims" of said actions will be unable to get justice. The reason they won't receive justice is that the confederation's size makes it resemble a massive bureaucracy in which "the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing".

There's indeed a perception that this is true. When a belligerent player from the Crows, Harmless, Consone starts stomping around in GC, people just assume that they are speaking with the full force of several million troops. Fortunately (or unfortunately) that's an Illyriad urban myth. In 90% of the conflicts I have seen, a courteous e-mail to that player's alliance leadership has resolved the problem quickly and fairly.

Where people have failed to get problems resolved, it's usually one of two things. Many send rude or confrontational IGMs to alliance leaders. Taking the dispute to GC or the forums will just cause a confusing pile-on that aggravates everyone, making the situation extra hard to resolve. That's painting your cause in the worst possible light. The other common mistake is demanding an immediate response. Even if the alliance leader reads your IGM (and their inboxes are quite full), a good leader will still take the time to get the full story from their own team. Illyriad is a slow game. Conflict resolution can take several days. Being impatient just frustrates everyone.
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Brandmeister View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2013 at 17:34
Originally posted by Kumomoto Kumomoto wrote:

I hate to break it to you, but the Crowalition has outnumbered H? and our only confed, Dlords, now for about two years.

Dwarven Lords is your only declared confederation. They are certainly not the only ally of Harmless. I have no objection to secret alliances--indeed, in many cases I find them more sensible than public declarations of allegiance--but this claim of "only one confed" is spurious and getting rather stale.

Regarding size, several wars have demonstrated that total alliance population is a poor proxy for fighting ability. I'd argue that even total troop count is a poor predictor of victory. Among its friends, Harmless numbers several of the most battle-hardened alliances from the Trove War. That's a valuable asset to oppose the potential tsunami of snuggling.

Originally posted by Kumomoto Kumomoto wrote:

It is a concern now (as we see it happening), but the major concern is that The Crowalition decides to continue expanding. Then Illy will see itself being benevolently smothered.


Illyriad is a sandbox game. Benevolent smothering is one of the many possible outcomes. Illy is likely biased in that direction by its large population of Australian, Canadian, American and British players. It is further propelled towards peace by requiring the patience and time investment of a city-building game.

That said, uCrow just declared war on NC. It seems safe to assume that the Benevolent Smothering outcome is off the table, at least for a while longer.
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Angrim View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2013 at 17:56
to abstract's point, what cannot be established is not the number of incidents dealt with, but the number of incidents not brought to the alliance leaders.  part of my effort to demystify here is to encourage players who have experienced issues with the crows to bring them to the alliances involved.  not all will be satisfied with the results, but that is the nature of disagreements.

i have encountered one concerning situation that fits the profile.  eCrow encouraged a player to go to another alliance because we felt, after several weeks, that he was a poor fit for the organisation.  upon his transfer, i received igm from an unaffiliated player inquiring if he had been dismissed because he'd been repeatedly attacking him.  of course we made that right and passed the word to the other crow wings, but there is no way to know how many other such incidents there may have been.  the argument from silence is a weak one.

so, acknowledged, but i don't see the problem as being confined to a large confed.  rogue players happen even in small alliances, and while one's chances of going undetected may be better in a larger organisation, the resources and mechanisms to deal with the problem are also greater, and the rogue runs a corresponding risk of running afoul of his former allies--which, if they are intimidating to outsiders, ought to be intimidating also to him.

the real issue, it seems, is not the size or military competency of the organisation, but its reputation for and willingness to take and consider evidence from aggrieved parties, and to deal with them fairly.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2013 at 18:00
Originally posted by BellusRex BellusRex wrote:

Personally, I find the various Crow alliances to be no more threatening, indeed far less, than those alliances with "hidden confederations"

I also find it a bit hard to accept the statements of those players who argue this is stifling or a threat to the game. Especially when you consider the source of those very same statements appear with their concerns any time they perceive their own power and game control to possibly be threatened.

If so many members of our game community felt threatened by Crows or their structure, then I wonder what it means that they all voted with their feet and joined that structure. If so many players feel the need to join Crows, I wonder what the threat is in the game that draws them to the Crow aegis?

I think this question is fair and not answered now.


Edited by Janosch - 08 Oct 2013 at 18:02
You like Democracy? Join the Old Republic!
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Tordenkaffen View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2013 at 18:29
Seems to me that the Crows(of any feather) want their old role back as the in-between guys while others went gungho on eachother. They have so far done good job steering clear of the worst of the trouble. They would be able to continue doing so indefinitely if not for that single little difference that now they are in some aspects of the Illyriad world "the man".
If not by vitue of military strength then by any other measure of magnitude and influence as the CrowFed has grown quite comprehensive with more social interaction and conflicts to follow.
 
Whichever frustration, injustice or the like, directed at a crowfed alliance will cast the same reflection on the Crowfed Entity as a whole. Grievances are unavoidable on this scale.

Bottom line I think, the Crows should find a better way of administering their federal policies so that they avoid entangling themselves in trivial conflicts, or/and simply be more restrictive about the Crow Federation - i.e. reduce the maximum number of alliances within. This would facilitate communication with other alliances.

Id like to hear from ScottFitz on the matter.
"FYI - if you had any balls you'd be posting under your in-game name." - KP
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2013 at 19:43
Originally posted by Redfist Redfist wrote:


He needs to brush up on his propaganda theoreticals though. This one is a bit second rate. I am even tempted to say that Deranzin could do better and that is no yardstick to be measured by - believe you me. Wink

I find people that feel the need to project their own pettiness to others, very funny ... Big smile ... especially when they use fake accounts to hide their accusations.

To the point now, I have no idea what happened in Oct 06, but I find Angrim's post very eloquent and very interesting too. Imho it states more or less the unconscious idea that most people have about Crows and that is quite nice.

Thank being said, indeed I will agree with people that claim that Crows and Consone are totally different in many aspects. Besides, in the Consone war I actually used the CrowFed as a positive example of how such things should have been done. Wink

The way I see it, every large or small collection of people have their occasional "bad fruits" and all these years the Crows have proven that they have good enough caretakers and leaders to locate and eventually either straighten or weed out the people that did not fit to their ideals and the way the CrowFed thinks and works, as Angrim explained.

So, if something is wrong or something is out of the ordinary I expect it to be reported to the CrowFed leaders and eventually worked out calmly and fairly. Just like every other time (or at least that is my impression of their efficiency on such matters :)  ).

Originally posted by Brandmeister Brandmeister wrote:

That's a valuable asset to oppose the potential tsunami of snuggling.

[...]

Illyriad is a sandbox game. Benevolent smothering is one of the many possible outcomes.


Well, I am fine with "Benevolent smothering", but no hugs for me please Tongue
 
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Brandmeister View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2013 at 19:44
Torden, you seem to have missed Angrim's original point. The Crow family is a true confederation. It is not a hierarchy. There are not any "federal policies" to administer to the whole, beyond some broadly shared guiding principles.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2013 at 04:38
Just to further highlight Angrim's point about the lack of rigid structure or monolithic unity within the Crowfed, at the time Harry declared the "Ursor Directive" , I was a rook of both Crow and nCrow, I was totally unaware Harry was going to post what he did, and despite the fact I believe he did so in order to support a very minor tussle I was involved in, neither I nor Rill, or Cookieman ever discussed it beforehand.  It was a very organic (and intended to be benevolent, even if its message was likely, and understandably misunderstood) spur of the moment act by the master rook of nCrow, there was certainly no input from other wings...  there wasn't even any from within nCrow ...  but it goes to highlight that what perceptions there may be on the outside, sometimes the reality is quite different ...   and very much less evil or maniacal ....

.. in the end,  there was no horrific oppression of the masses, no stiffling of the expansion of other alliances within Ursor or elsewhere...  and even those who railed against the original post , have to look back at it now and realize it was part of no master grand evil plan to either ruin Illy or rule the world ...

.. just the 2 cents of wisdom from someone who really is very much trying to be a disinterested 3rd party ...  if only Ditto would stop dragging me back in....  (reminds me of a scene from Godfather...)...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2013 at 14:45
On confederations in general and with no concern or relevance to Crows.
I do believe confederation is a political power bloc tool. I agree with the above notions that the offset effects of power blocs is only at the discretion of those few in high influence over such a power bloc. But as we have seen in RL coalition and power bloc building it does arise i.e personality cults where feedback to powerful elite influencors deminish over time in fear of the cost from fallout with these/ this person(s). This one of the most serious negative developments a confederation can have. Stalin is one example and his cult turned so acidy for feedback that there is a Hotel in Moscow built in two architectural styles because Stalin approved plans containing two seperate ideas without reading them...nobody deared to tell him of his mistake (Please do check this story and come back to me with confirmation or falsification. It is still a good story that I have heard and I find it worth sharing until I know better).

Clearly, Illyriad is not yet so acid in terms of influencive players and feedback/ social dynamics between layers of players throughout hierarchies. But this is no guarantee this same political dynamics can occur. There is a romour that a political scientist is writing an article about Illyriad politics, so attention may be given to this and other effects.

Both informal and formal confederations share the same dynamics. So I cannot in this strict theoretical framework see any difference between Illyriad domination by informal confederational structures or the declared formal ones. They are potentially equally dangerous, but it is also naive to think they should not arise at all. However, the mere fact they exist (informal or formal) is not a cause in itself to go to war or hostile actions against it.



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