The Mystery of the Zau Brulk Trolls

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   Thanks for that, Freyja! In response to your points regarding rationales for the expanded DRSes: yes, I would definitely think about them in the context of Faction AI. Also, I wouldn't limit understanding their rationales merely based on geography. We've also used the lore and even more creative rationales to create new connections between factions.
Let's look at our not-so-friendly trolls as examples:

Several of the DRS ratings are tied to mentions in Zau Brulk's lore:

"They have been known to trade with other Greenskins, and we know from the Orcs of Pax Orcana that they have done so for as long as they can remeber. . . "

This gives some clues as to why they have a +20 with the Pax Orcana. And while there's nothing in the lore directly about their closeness with the Parvacones, we know that they have an affinity with greenskin races, and we know that they uttery loathe the Dyadans. We know this from the Dyadans' lore:

"The Dyadans now find safe haven in their peaceful, beautiful home, happy to sing and dance their lives away. But it’s not going to be all song and dance when the Zau Brulk advances northwards. Our military intelligence divisions have noted that the trolls have been supplying weapons to the Greenskins for years; why should the Dyadans consider themselves safe?"

As for the trolls' hatred of the Turyns, it is more likely a "sympathy hatred" based on their closeness with greenskins, aka Parvacones, and the Parvacones' antipathy toward the Turyns. Also, the Faction Ranges tool reveals that the trolls and kobolds' hub ranges do indeed intersect. This slim but crucial intersection could justify this relationship geographically.

Hopefully this reveals some of the thinking behind DRS "webs" like these. 

Other connections are made through references in the lore, such as Saxil's ruminations on the Kingdom of Tal:

"I learned, the neighbours of the Kingdom of Tal were a rough and warlike tribe of Trolls. Clearly a life at sea would be preferable to struggling against the merciless heat and the murderous Trolls."

This suggests that the Kingdom of Tal deal with the Trolls regularly. Also, the Tals have a mildly positive relationship with the Dyadans.

As for Drangu Mundas, the DRS between them and the trolls might be thought of more as an interesting NPC vs. NPC relationship between 2 "bigfolk" factions, so that all of the giantkind are not "on the same team" in the game, so to speak. Part of our thinking in updating the DRS standings was to eventually give players an opportunity to rank high enough with some of the more mystical creatures in Factions and have their military units come to players' and alliances' aid in battle. That's why you'll now see an opening via DRS and the inter-factional relationships to eventually move the needle with some of these mystical factions.

Also, there is some justification in the lore to suggest that the Ogres could have roamed enough to meet the Trolls at some point. Di'qualinin tells us that:

"Until recently the Ogres of Illyriad were wandering beasts, roaming in managble packs - but after the Fourth Rebellion, instead of scattering as they had normally done without a war to unite them, they went on a terrifying trek through the Northern Lands, killing as they went." 

This would suggest that their roaming was relegated to the north, however, later in the lore, Di'qualinin notes:

". . . Ogres roaming the entire countryside of Illyria is now a thing of the past."

Could ogres have roamed far enough south to have met and clashed with the Trolls? Any such clashes do not appear in the lore, but it may make sense, as who among the giantkind are literate enough to have recorded such events? It would have had to have been witnessed by someone and reported.

All of this is to say that there was indeed thinking and rationales behind all of the DRS and inter-factional augmentations. Admittedly, I am not your equal in commanding the lore, but in the process of doing this, I did the deepest dive I could to make the new connections and ratings interesting.

I will fully admit that maybe some of them are probably a bit self-indulgent on my part and more a species of my imagination. 

Edited by GM Jejune - 30 Nov 2023 at 23:46

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GM Jejune Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group GM Joined: 24 Feb 2022 Location: Illyriad Status: Offline Points: 73	Post Options Post Reply Quote GM Jejune Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 30 Nov 2023 at 15:08
	Thanks for that, Freyja! In response to your points regarding rationales for the expanded DRSes: yes, I would definitely think about them in the context of Faction AI. Also, I wouldn't limit understanding their rationales merely based on geography. We've also used the lore and even more creative rationales to create new connections between factions. Let's look at our not-so-friendly trolls as examples: Several of the DRS ratings are tied to mentions in Zau Brulk's lore: "They have been known to trade with other Greenskins, and we know from the Orcs of Pax Orcana* that they have done so for as long as they can remeber. . . "* This gives some clues as to why they have a +20 with the Pax Orcana. And while there's nothing in the lore directly about their closeness with the Parvacones, we know that they have an affinity with greenskin races, and we know that they uttery loathe the Dyadans. We know this from the Dyadans' lore: "The Dyadans now find safe haven in their peaceful, beautiful home, happy to sing and dance their lives away. But it’s not going to be all song and dance when the Zau Brulk advances northwards. Our military intelligence divisions have noted that the trolls have been supplying weapons to the Greenskins for years; why should the Dyadans consider themselves safe?" As for the trolls' hatred of the Turyns, it is more likely a "sympathy hatred" based on their closeness with greenskins, aka Parvacones, and the Parvacones' antipathy toward the Turyns. Also, the Faction Ranges tool reveals that the trolls and kobolds' hub ranges do indeed intersect. This slim but crucial intersection could justify this relationship geographically. Hopefully this reveals some of the thinking behind DRS "webs" like these. Other connections are made through references in the lore, such as Saxil's ruminations on the Kingdom of Tal: "I learned, the neighbours of the Kingdom of Tal were a rough and warlike tribe of Trolls. Clearly a life at sea would be preferable to struggling against the merciless heat and the murderous Trolls." This suggests that the Kingdom of Tal deal with the Trolls regularly. Also, the Tals have a mildly positive relationship with the Dyadans. As for Drangu Mundas, the DRS between them and the trolls might be thought of more as an interesting NPC vs. NPC relationship between 2 "bigfolk" factions, so that all of the giantkind are not "on the same team" in the game, so to speak. Part of our thinking in updating the DRS standings was to eventually give players an opportunity to rank high enough with some of the more mystical creatures in Factions and have their military units come to players' and alliances' aid in battle. That's why you'll now see an opening via DRS and the inter-factional relationships to eventually move the needle with some of these mystical factions. Also, there is some justification in the lore to suggest that the Ogres could have roamed enough to meet the Trolls at some point. Di'qualinin tells us that: "Until recently the Ogres of Illyriad were wandering beasts, roaming in managble packs - but after the Fourth Rebellion, instead of scattering as they had normally done without a war to unite them, they went on a terrifying trek through the Northern Lands, killing as they went." This would suggest that their roaming was relegated to the north, however, later in the lore, Di'qualinin notes: ". . . Ogres roaming the entire countryside of Illyria* is now a thing of the past."* Could ogres have roamed far enough south to have met and clashed with the Trolls? Any such clashes do not appear in the lore, but it may make sense, as who among the giantkind are literate enough to have recorded such events? It would have had to have been witnessed by someone and reported. All of this is to say that there was indeed thinking and rationales behind all of the DRS and inter-factional augmentations. Admittedly, I am not your equal in commanding the lore, but in the process of doing this, I did the deepest dive I could to make the new connections and ratings interesting. I will fully admit that maybe some of them are probably a bit self-indulgent on my part and more a species of my imagination. Edited by GM Jejune - 30 Nov 2023 at 23:46


Tensmoor Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Postmaster General Joined: 07 Apr 2015 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 1805	Post Options Post Reply Quote Tensmoor Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 01 Dec 2023 at 08:30
	If I'm understanding you correctly Jejune then you are saying that it will also be possible to encounter a given faction around hubs belonging to other factions depending on their relationship. Depending on whether they are hostile or friendly you may see military or trading visits. Again, this is opening up even more possibilities for influencing our standings with factions. Attack hostile troops from another faction in the area of a hub and suddenly the hub owners are giving you a slight discount! I'm also in slow time looking into ways of improving both the relationships and ranges tools. Not happy with how either of them work. Tens Edited by Tensmoor - 01 Dec 2023 at 08:32

GM Jejune Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group GM Joined: 24 Feb 2022 Location: Illyriad Status: Offline Points: 73	Post Options Post Reply Quote GM Jejune Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 01 Dec 2023 at 14:31
	I think you're definitely on the right track, Tens. To be sure, Faction ranges will play a major role in the expanded behaviors of Faction units, and you're not likely to see units from Factions roaming everywhere on the map. That being said, we expanded the inter-factional relationships to give players additional opportunities to improve their standings with factions. It stands to reason that one dimension to relationships with factions will involve not only how you interact with them directly, but also how you interact with their factional friends and allies. Attacking a Faction's enemies may improve your standing with said Faction. There are definitely inter-factional relationships that are not justified by geography; you'll find IFS relationships where the 2 factions' ranges do not intersect. However, this might be a unique opportunity: if you seek to make friends with Faction A by making enemies with Faction B, and Faction A is close to you but Faction B is farther away, that might be a good value proposition. Sure, you might have a -90 with Faction B, but they're not likely to trek far across the map to hurt you. And you might end up with +90 from Faction A, and they will join you in battle, give you cool things, etc. Alas, I'm not being a good GM and am hijacking this thread to make it about Faction AI. However, to bring it back to Zau Brulk, their DRS and IFS numbers are all very interesting, and a good place for players to start traversing some of the inter-factional webs. I highly recommend players bookmarking and messing with Tensmoor's very excellent Faction Relationships tool. Selecting Zau Brulk, Parvacones, Dyadans, Kingdom of Tal, and Turyns really pictorializes what we've been talking about.


Sif Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Forum Warrior Joined: 10 Apr 2021 Location: Athens Status: Offline Points: 248	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sif Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 01 Dec 2023 at 19:59
	can we interact with factions and gain/lose points by attacking their human "friends" or "enemies" ? i whould like something like that

Dorci Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Greenhorn Joined: 11 Jun 2022 Status: Offline Points: 40	Post Options Post Reply Quote Dorci Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 Dec 2023 at 06:42
	Long live trolls!!!!
	No one is here