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The History of Illyriad (incomplete)
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BellusRex View Drop Down
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Points: 156 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BellusRex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2014 at 17:50
John Louis

I respect what you said, and ultimatum may be a fair view. If so, H? have given many themselves. When they destroyed Consone, and EE was the last alliance that had not yet surrendered, they could  have done just as you suggested. They did not. We had to publicly surrender, and accept punitive terms for reasons such as i've already mentioned.

Ceasefires are not viable in a game like this, since the time is used to rebuild military, etc. I'd be more than happy to consider "real terms". I don't think just stopping the hostilities is an option, some sort of post war actions or agreements are going to be a must. Speaking solely for myself here and not as part of EE's Council, I'm not a fan of punitive terms, especially demanding further cities. Nor do I want exorbitant resources paid, or florid public surrender statements.

I don't believe we have ever received even an idea from Team A of a starting point for discussing ways to end this. Aside from the just stop thing, which is obviously a non-starter. There are many of us who would like to hear a truly honest response as to a realistic settlement of the war.

And my thanks to you for the chance to have a rational discussion. Apologies to Nokigon if this has lead away from your thread. I'm happy to continue in IGM.
"War is the father of all things..."
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Nokigon View Drop Down
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I would like to request that you have this conversation elsewhere, so this doesn't get locked.
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John Louis View Drop Down
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@ BellusRex

With the greatest respect, I wish to point out the following:

1. In your first paragraph you state that it is not credible to think that one side will unilaterally cease operations because the other side won't consider terms - I must respectfully disagree. In war (from experience I will refrain from drawing RL comparisons, however tempting) once a side has accomplished its goals they will happily agree or even propose an end to hostilities with the other side because their goals have been achieved, without demanding that the other side must "surrender" first. And besides, no terms have been offered other than Team A must surrender - those are not terms they are called ultimatums.

2. I have come to accept now that your side will not propose a ceasefire or even suggest real terms for an end to this conflict - so be it. I suspect this is because your side's true aim (and I also accept not everyone from your side may feel this way, but the ones that count clearly do) is to destroy Team A (as they know they will never surrender - this is simply a fact).

Sure, you will deny it, say that we just need to surrender or whatever. However, the simple truth is (in my humble view) that the facts speak for themselves.

Beware Team B - the world you are creating is the world you will have to live in when everything has finally been said and done.

Happy gaming everyone.
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BellusRex View Drop Down
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Points: 156 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BellusRex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2014 at 16:32
I'd have to say there may be some truth in what Kumo says about 5 people being "run out" of the game, in the sense that deliberate efforts were made to destroy their cities until they left Illy. That's not the same as someone continuing to lose cities because they refuse to surrender and keep fighting. It's just not credible to think one side unilaterally ceases operations in a war because the other side won't consider terms.

As for what KP says, it may not be in H? forums, but it was certainly said to us many times in the last war that EE would keep losing cities until we surrendered, and would also suffer even harsher terms of surrender the longer we did not. Many of us have iGM's to this effect, from H? directors, not just random members. It's easy to point to forum posts that support that as well.

H? has undeniably told others on many occasions that the more the community tried to force a course of action on them or question their decisions, the more determined and possibly greater those punitive actions would be. People were punished for forum and GC statements, and we have "official"communication where we are told a player must lose cities because they were "stupid".

My point, I suppose, is if the actions occurring now are so terrible, then seek or offer terms. We were told it was our own pride that kept things going. I can only point out that that goes in the other direction as well.
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Mr Damage View Drop Down
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Originally posted by KillerPoodle KillerPoodle wrote:

Originally posted by Mr Damage Mr Damage wrote:

you may have threatened to do so


I know several people have said this recently but I checked over several of the negotiation threads in our forum and I don't think we ever threatened anyone with total destruction.

I'd love to see an official statement where we did.


Perhaps not in your forums, I was referring more to GC comment. I was not making aspersions that it was a good or bad thing either way, just that it has happened and the main reason it didn't occur was that the opposition conceded before it could. You KP cannot say it hasn't been said via IGMs from your members categorically either because you do not see every mail they send. I may have one or several from one of your members offering annihilation of one of ours, I'll send it if I get time to search for it. As I said, its not a judgement, threats are part of war.
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scaramouche View Drop Down
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Points: 432 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scaramouche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2014 at 16:48
Originally posted by Kumomoto Kumomoto wrote:


Originally posted by scaramouche scaramouche wrote:



Secondly, I noticed a good few examples where it was written that it seems there have been instances of where past players have been completely destroyed in previous wars..which surprises me that some peoples in the current war state that players being destroyed now is a step too far?
It seems what is happening now is nothing new.


Totally not the case in previous wars. There are less 5 folks who have been actively run out of this game (had more than half their cities wiped out) in all the wars in Illy combined until this recent one.

In this most recent one, there are more than 40 already. You do the math.


I'M not a mathematician tbh...but hypothetically...the 5 people run out of the game in the past, can it not be the equivalent to 15 people in todays war considering the far greater numbers of people and alliances involved at this present time??
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KillerPoodle View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Mr Damage Mr Damage wrote:

you may have threatened to do so


I know several people have said this recently but I checked over several of the negotiation threads in our forum and I don't think we ever threatened anyone with total destruction.

I'd love to see an official statement where we did.
"This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM

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Deranzin View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Kumomoto Kumomoto wrote:


Totally not the case in previous wars. There are less 5 folks who have been actively run out of this game (had more than half their cities wiped out) in all the wars in Illy combined until this recent one.

In this most recent one, there are more than 40 already. You do the math.


And, unless I am mistaken, all those previous cases were also leaders in their alliances/sides.

Which is obviously not something that one can claim now ... LOL



Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p
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Mr Damage View Drop Down
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Points: 598 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Damage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2014 at 05:05
I actually agree with you there Kumo, you may have threatened to do so but it never actually came to pass because the other sides have always surrendered. You guys won't be surrendering and your opposition won't be relenting so destruction/extermination whatever you want to call it seems inevitable. 

On a side note, if you want to talk cease fire/peace treaty with me I'm happy to do so, perhaps it may influence others to do the same. Despite neither parties wishing to relent, I am happy to agree that H has lost and will continue to lose this war unless the balance shifts dramatically, I don't need you guys to admit it or pay me to say so. Its only a small step but its a start, you guys have been great to fight with across all of the wars. Igm me to discuss further or if not, ignore this post.
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Kumomoto View Drop Down
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Originally posted by scaramouche scaramouche wrote:



Secondly, I noticed a good few examples where it was written that it seems there have been instances of where past players have been completely destroyed in previous wars..which surprises me that some peoples in the current war state that players being destroyed now is a step too far?
It seems what is happening now is nothing new.


Totally not the case in previous wars. There are less 5 folks who have been actively run out of this game (had more than half their cities wiped out) in all the wars in Illy combined until this recent one.

In this most recent one, there are more than 40 already. You do the math.
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