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The History of Illyriad (incomplete)

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_duQ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _duQ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2012 at 01:13
What a defamatory peace of crap about me!

Nonikon, you can't imagine how wrong you are about my personality and my goals as a player. I've always said it's all been a set up. And a set up using metagame (meaning not controlled by game rules and incoherent with the game fantasy) is nothing less than cheating.
I'm still wondering, was Berberos a real player or just another metagame cheat to push me (and later Valar) out of the way? But the mob has been deaf to any argument. As long as you had a black duck to lynch, culpability doesn't matter. 
Moreover, I wasn't kicked out of Valar subsequently to the Berberos-gate but because I was tickling Anjire, weeks later. And Lorre was just another bored player hoping to have, at last, a fight. He's lost several thousands troops to wrong timing and bad usage of terrain against me alone, before having to face Valar reinf. But I wont brag, because I know for a fact that Lorre is a good World of Tanks player, so it may well have been bad luck.


my History

When I joined, in april 2010, some already big players had already an edge over the others due to their seniority. They have been playing since before-the-game-existed. And I would become one of them if I had played regularly. As a game designer IRL, I know how detrimental to the fun of new players such unfair advantages can be.

In 2010, first game rule change. I was upset because I had planned my development with the first set of rules. If you change the rules, you change the game. And here no new server! An incoherent and unbalancing city teleporting system and naturally the old players increasing their unfair advantage. I did quit some months. Checking now and then for professional reasons, but not planning playing again.
One day, I got an igm from Azreil who planned quiting Illyriad Empire to found Valar with some IE brass. Fellowship is the most driving source of fun for me, so I decided to give it another try.

After several weeks, I was bored again. I appointed darkone as a sitter and let him do the daily clicking. I became active again at the very beginning of the second tournament. Although, the tourney itself was the worst case of farming sh*t (farming animals 4 time a day), my motivation came again from the fellowship. And to give you a better idea of who I am, I didn't care about winning the tournament, my goal was simply doing the best for my team.

After the tournament, I had 2 choices, either use a sitter or try to play the wargame by attacking the biggest fish in the pond. When I presented my choice to Azreil, he agreed with attacking H as the good move.
Problem was H was far too big to be attacked by numbers. So I began analysing the map, especially the traveling times between cities. And I began elaborating a global strategy. An open world, not enough travelling constraints, it wasn't an easy task. All those years spent playing tabletop wargames and my period as superior officer cadet (and all the warfare theories and books) sure came handy.

Suddendly, when I was almost ready to submit my plan, the worst part, the Berberos-gate. As the mob never allowed to explain what happened, I won't even bother to get into the details. Was it a premeditated cheat, an opportunistic one or just bad luck? I don't know and I don't care. Because I didn't pray on a newbie and I put up with all the subsequent attacks from the mob without retaliating although I had the mean to (well not, I guess, against Createure and Fluffy). 
What I know is that Azreil assured me that Valar had my back. After several weeks, things calmed down and I was back at planning a big scale attack against the bullys of this server.
At that point I needed infos about H coordination and mobility. So I tickled Anjire by settling next to a 20food square that he hadn't been claiming for months. The answer was quick and very H-ish, no attack, no war, yet some petty vans skirmishes, but the main action was some political pression over Valar.
Then, Azreil, darkone and some other, instead of being politically smart, did coward in front of the big H. We know how they were rewarded some months later.
I don't know if my plan would have worked because it was only a plan and it's how you operate it that counts in a military campaign. But at least Valar would have had some chances and a better political odd to negociate with third parties. When you say every one you're stronger, every one tends thinking you're stronger.
What Valar? Still alive? No! they just happen having bought the brand to H.


What is wrong in Illyriad?

I might mistaken, but it seems to me that Illyriad has quite a turnover of paying players.

The main problem of Illyriad is not the game in itself, it's this server. More exactly, it's
  • the way events in addition to unfair advantages have reinforced one unique dominant alliance
  • a conglomerate of rules and changes
  • and self-righteous players setting how any should think and play.

This server adopted a peacefull and farming approach. Which is fine with me as long as, I don't HAVE to play that way.
My problem with that and the general tendancy of electronic entertainment coming from (wrongly called) social games is that farming is addictive but not ludic at all (ludic, from latin ludere: intrinsically playful). It's a kind of false fun where the "fun" comes from the reward, the aftermath and not the playing experience (like in gambling).

The obvious richness of Illyriad comes from its diversity. So the first fun source should be discovery. But, as for any MMO, it's quickly spoiled by the sharing community.
Naturally, there is some fun due to expression (you can build how you want, where you want). But, again, eventually you will reach the 10 cities cap and fullfill your objectives one after another. But the main opportunity for fun is the mind challenge of the wargame. This server forbade it, not the game rules, the player's dynamics.
It's true that fighting is still possible, but you have to fight 1 vs 10 or 1 vs 100. Neither side can be challenging. Either, you're crushed or crush. You win by numbers not strategy.
The tournaments have been a way to let go some steam. But is it challenging? A bit, sometimes, but in actuality, it's a form of farming based on numbers, meaning the time spent playing the game.
Lastly, I reckon that the story, the narrative is an important source of real true fun. It's teh only part that pledge for long term servers.

I spent some time testing Illy's new features because it's part of my job to be up to date with game and playing genres. I'm afraid this server will only see the farming opportunities and not the challenging one. Guys there are some challenge with the trading. Think of monopoly, think of killing the competition over certain goods, etc. But remember that usually leads to military wars.

Lots of people oppose Illyriad with Evony, Travian and their clones. But illyriad has much more in common with those games than you know.

I've studied about 50 servers of that kind of game some time ago and it appears that server duration is what kills the real fun.
  • Because the map becomes crowded,
  • Because the pseudo-politics comes to a statu quo. (pseudo because it's way too simple to be called politics. It's like diplomacy the board game)
That's basically a description of Elgea.
Then, I have seen 2 big dynamics occuring, either, 1984-servers, some huge meta-alliance enforces an utopic (boring) peace or scavanging-servers, every one prays on newbies and loners. To be clear, both sucks.
Well, simply Elgea is in the first case. But if we had 20 Illyriad servers, I bet some would be scavaging-servers. So, in my professional opinion, Illyriad isn't that much different from Evony and Travian in term of player's behaviors. Diversity is the actual difference.


So what?

First of all, I been waiting for a new server since Q4 2010.

Then how to avoid the statu quo effect?
It's important to solve that problem in order to get the most of the narrative source of fun.
The statu quo is the plague of MMO RT builders (sorry I reserve the word strategy for games like Total War series).
Without having spend much time on it, I think one answer can lie with the AI (Artifical Intelligence meaning the NPCs).
Something like players having to swear allegiance to their local factions. Then factions being at war with each other. And if you create a player alliance, the alliance also pledges to a faction. It give to the devs the means to create challenges without preventing farmers to farm, to have a narration tool that has an impact on gameplay and on game dynamics.
I know that a group of creative game designers can come up with many workable solutions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LordOfTheSwamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2012 at 06:43
Originally posted by _duQ _duQ wrote:

What a defamatory peace of crap about me!
 

No, it isn't. It's heavily biased, inevitably selective in its coverage (as Noki can't have full knowledge of events), and in places of questionable accuracy; on the "_duQ incident" it seems to suck up to Lorre absurdly, downplays the role played by Createure and others, etc. ...

But it is neither "defamatory" nor "crap"

Originally posted by _duQ _duQ wrote:

After the tournament, I had 2 choices, either use a sitter or try to play the wargame by attacking the biggest fish in the pond. When I presented my choice to Azreil, he agreed with attacking H as the good move.

Now that is without a doubt one of the most interesting things I've ever read on this forum.

It's the first I've heard of it, and there's no way to know if it's true, but it's certainly an interesting assertion.
"A boy is building sandcastles on a beach. You go and kick down his castle. You could say that it only reflects how you play with sandcastles. Others may think it reflects who you are." - Ander.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SugarFree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2012 at 08:36
really? Az was not the brightest bulb in the store, but he knew he and VALAR did not stand a chance against H?'s power. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _duQ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2012 at 10:24
Sure! Clap

And Noki can't have full knowledge of events but you can.
And you're not being defaming when you imply that I lie about Az.
And you're not biaised, because you've never been one of my detractors in the past.
And you're not illustrating what I said about right thinking people "knowing" the official holly truth.
And my reply wasn't at all analysis and thoughts about Illyriad but was fully dedicated to a parochialism quarrel.

And remember what everyone knows: _duQ kills puppys each time he sneezes and he eats children for breakfast.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _duQ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2012 at 11:58
Not a chance?
1st, can you tell me how many troops H and Valar had in summer 2011, before and after the tournament?
Assuming the numbers were bad, what about travelling time, recalling delays, siege camp setting delay? Timing is essential in Illyriad combat. And timing allows strategy, even if I don't remember anyone using actual elaborate strategies in Illyriad... yet. 

There are plenty of stratagems (actual stratagems not the game rules' stratagems) allowing to take down a superior force:
  • Drawing reinforcement to 1 place: either the enemy takes the bait and you attack elsewhere or he doesn't and you destroy the first target
  • Attacking weakest or loneliest players
  • Scorched earth policy
  • forcing a cav attack by being just in range for the cav but not the other troops
  • etc.
In term of pure numbers, Valar shouldn't have been able to win the 2nd tournament. But more active players, less troop-consuming hunting, new player mentoring dedicated to hunting, appropriate recruting (Boromir, Angrum, Kurdruk, etc.) have been the keys. How do you that happened? By chance?

A war would have been much more difficult, but "not a chance" looks like H propaganda to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LordOfTheSwamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2012 at 12:20
Since I'm assuming that was directed at me...

Originally posted by _duQ _duQ wrote:

And Noki can't have full knowledge of events but you can.

I think I've always been clear that Illy is too complex for one person to understand, and that people should always be mindful of their ignorance (e.g.  http://wisdomofkurdruk.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/so-its-war/ , http://wisdomofkurdruk.wordpress.com/2011/06/13/the-danger-of-ignorance/ , and http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/seeing-the-good-and-the-bad-in-h_topic3901.html )

Originally posted by _duQ _duQ wrote:

And you're not being defaming when you imply that I lie about Az.

At the time, Az assured me that he was trying to calm you down and avoid war. You posted here that you and Az were plotting war. Someone's not telling the truth. I have no way to know which of you it is.

I regard your past actions as a menace to the peace of Illyria (and I turned out to be right), and I'm still angry that Az ran away when the war started and left the rest of us to try to work out what on earth was going on - so I'm not a fan of either of you, but I'm in no position to tell which of you is/was being less than truthful.

Like I say, yours was an interesting assertion. I'm not in a position to say more than that. But it certainly was interesting.

Originally posted by _duQ _duQ wrote:

And you're not biaised, because you've never been one of my detractors in the past.

I have always been quite clear on this. I regard peace in Illyriad as a good thing, and I have frequently held up both you and Lorre as prime examples of people who threatened that peace. So certainly, I am not a fan.

I also didn't enjoy being one of the people who had to sort out the "war". I didn't enjoy watching good players quit the game (remember DakotaStrider and KingAtreus?). I didn't enjoy having to explain to 80 mystified players that H? and the jackal-pack could destroy everything they'd worked to build if they felt like it and that neither I nor anyone else knew why it was happening. I didn't enjoy watching players I had previously respected turn into a misguided lynch mob. The "war" was the single most unpleasant experience I've had in Illyriad, and I nearly quit the game over it. And I hold you partially responsible for that. So absolutely, I'm not your fan.

Originally posted by _duQ _duQ wrote:

And you're not illustrating what I said about right thinking people "knowing" the official holly truth.

Correct. I am quite clearly not illustrating that.

Originally posted by _duQ _duQ wrote:

And my reply wasn't at all analysis and thoughts about Illyriad but was fully dedicated to a parochialism quarrel.

Actually, as an analysis it was pretty interesting. Your conclusions, I would argue with. The basic observations are pretty solid. But if you wanted a discussion about that, you should perhaps have posted elsewhere. Instead you decided to post in Noki's history thread.

So, I ignored the off-topic analysis, and focused on your utterly incorrect assertion that Noki's post was defamation and "crap", and on the entirely relevant assertion that you made that you and Az were plotting war - which was, as I said, a really interesting comment.
"A boy is building sandcastles on a beach. You go and kick down his castle. You could say that it only reflects how you play with sandcastles. Others may think it reflects who you are." - Ander.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kumomoto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2012 at 13:57
Originally posted by LordOfTheSwamp LordOfTheSwamp wrote:


Originally posted by _duQ _duQ wrote:

After the tournament, I had 2 choices, either use a sitter or try to play the wargame by attacking the biggest fish in the pond. When I presented my choice to Azreil, he agreed with attacking H as the good move.

Now that is without a doubt one of the most interesting things I've ever read on this forum.

It's the first I've heard of it, and there's no way to know if it's true, but it's certainly an interesting assertion.


We knew this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _duQ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2012 at 16:29
Quote
Actually, as an analysis it was pretty interesting. Your conclusions, I would argue with. The basic observations are pretty solid. But if you wanted a discussion about that, you should perhaps have posted elsewhere. Instead you decided to post in Noki's history thread.

History allows analysis.
My own experience is necessarily relevant to my analysis and part of the method I used to analyse.

But dully noted.
I will copy the relevant parts in a more relevant topic as soon as I have some time, perhaps tomorrow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KillerPoodle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2012 at 16:40
Originally posted by Kumomoto Kumomoto wrote:

Originally posted by LordOfTheSwamp LordOfTheSwamp wrote:


Originally posted by _duQ _duQ wrote:

After the tournament, I had 2 choices, either use a sitter or try to play the wargame by attacking the biggest fish in the pond. When I presented my choice to Azreil, he agreed with attacking H as the good move.

Now that is without a doubt one of the most interesting things I've ever read on this forum.

It's the first I've heard of it, and there's no way to know if it's true, but it's certainly an interesting assertion.


We knew this.


I also know what you had for breakfast.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nokigon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2012 at 19:34
Firstly, if Luna browses over this, I don't mind the debate in the history despite the terms of the Traveller's Tale. I always welcome criticism, so long as it is constructive. The only thing I would object to is generalising- the bit about you is in the scale of the whole thing rather small.
 
Anyway. I actually disagree with the statement that it is heavily biased. It may emphasise the actions of some over others, possibly wrongly, but I have never once in that complimented Lorre or Createure or anyone. Quite possibly, wrongly, but anyway. My largest objection to that piece is the shortness, as I feel that it was an important event and I don't think the  piece does it justice.
 
_duQ. Thanks for imforming me about the Anjire thing; my main source of information, unfortunately, is the forums and as you can probably imagine this is not a particularly trustworthy source. I should really be grateful that this is the first protest that I have received.
 
Your analysis about Illyriad is interesting, very much so. In a lot of your points I completely agree with you, and most certainly agree that the one server is the main cause of the atmosphere in the game- in a charitable mood, I'd call it peaceful; in an angry mood I'd call it dull. However, this is beside the point of the post. I never ONCE wanted to have this thread as a debate on the comparative merits/disadvantages to the game, and I think you based the majority of your post on an impression given to you by a sentence that was not intended to give that meaning. If it offended you, I apologise. If you would like me to change it, I will. I have never been one of the lynch mob. A quick forum search will reveal that my alliance was one of the few alliances that was involved in the S&B war, but not in the Valar war. Why? One was a fair cause. The other was cruel and in my opinion unnecessary.
 
Please, however, do submit the reasons for the berberos incident. As far as I'm aware, the only explanation ever given is that you wanted to secure your cities and you deemed berberos too close. If there is another side to the story, then I would appreciate it if you told me and I will adjust the account accordingly.
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