The Great War

Well past is past i think    people should move on  i have.. no hard feelings towards anyone. I am out just wanted to quickly respond to that.

Tamaeon wrote: Consul Zynot wrote: Tamaeon wrote: Consul Zynot wrote: Prares wrote: I've sent my even more lengthy remembrances of the war privately to Orik, but since Celtic Knights have been mentioned in this thread several times want to let you all know my view of these matters from our side (not through our RT, just my personal thoughts). RE - we declared war against them for much the same reasons we'd fought before. Why did Ajeka declare war rather than just hit them a few times - no idea. Did he declare "we'll eliminate them" in his war speech to the alliance - yes he did, but I frankly took no notice of that as was pretty standard AC fare. I did have good conversations with Bonfyr Verboo, and then with Zynot and Nistiner and others in RE and our war was resolved in about 10 days. The war status remained there for months because that was the bargaining chip with Sir Bradly - his sole aim in discussions was to split us from our friends in BANE, NAAM and the warring Crow alliances (we did have good relations with CalcCr prior but no real connections with the others) KP, Kumo and The Dude - vituperative responses on forum when I was putting forward our position resolved me to keep going regardless of what I thought was certain destruction of my account. At that stage we had no war allies but Ajeka was talking to all possible helpers. The H? pax in Illy was a pox on the game for me and I'm very glad that amount of wideranging power has been broken as a result of the war. Ajeka declared war on RE because RE at the  time was a very easy target for him   he did not even bother to mail me   and when i mailed him about the causes he  refused to  respond to me and nistiner  all he did was cry later on when NC   decided to help out. Now  i know    SB and  CK was having good peace talks, especially with TVM also who was trying to mediate peace   but then Tamaeon came into the phrase and    everyone kissed   peace good bye on that matter. Just had to respond to that as it   involved RE. For the record, I still have the messages exchanged with RE, including... the negotiation of a ceasefire between CK and RE, immediately after uCrow declared on NC your rejections of white peace with CK my warnings not to add TVM players to RE  our complaints after RE declared on uCrow my proposal for a ceasefire between uCrow and RE my promise that uCrow would not launch any sieges against RE, provided the ceasefire agreements with uCrow and CK would be upheld And more... This is one of the key reasons the war became so destructive. Early on there were alliances on your side which could not be trusted to negotiate in good faith. This definitely changed somewhere down the road, but it was really frustrating in the early stages. I would  love to see the mail in which Celtic Knights  and Ucrow offered NC and RE white peace,   But  i am sure it never happened thus it does not exist You're right, it does not exist... because white peace was offered before RE declared on uCrow. I've sent you an igm of my discussion with Nistiner. Consul Zynot wrote: Peace was going well without Ucrow  in the  fray as  soon as you joined    all you did was threaten people and it got no one anywhere. Just to highlight the hassle of negotiating with RE at the time, I'll post a timeline below... Consul Zynot wrote: RE  never could fully exit the war with you handling the diplomacy   it was dittobite that finally  made peace  for us and it only took   48 hrs with him. True, it was Dittobite who secured peace in the end. Though the efforts of uCrow, CK and NAAM cannot be ignored. Achieving peace with RE was probably the most difficult negotiation in illyriad history. Here's some of the highlights starting from October 14th. (note that before this, uCrow had negotiated a ceasefire and an offer of white peace for RE) 14th of October - uCrow warns RE (3rd time) to immediately remove all TVM members from their ranks, warning that failure to comply will lead to an imminent escalation of the war. 15th of October - RE reject white peace. Nistiner replies stating that RE will not sign peace with CK, until CK sign peace with NC. He was also glad to point out that NC would siege uCrow into submission. 17th of October - EE declares war on TVM. All players visiting in RE return home. 18th of October - CK and uCrow start talks for new surrender terms, upon RE's renewed interest in peace. We eventually settled on: - RE are to move all cities within 15 squares of CK cities. - uCrow and CK will provide all the resources needed for RE to build up towns and exodus. - After exodus, uCrow and CK will provide all the resources to help RE rebuild towns. - RE agree not to settle within 15 squares of CK cities. - RE promise to never attempt to corrupt any CK members again. These terms were initially rejected, uCrow and CK return to the drawing table...   30th of October - RE declares war on uCrow and NAAM. 30th of October - Myself and Nistiner exchange various messages regarding the war declaration. 30th of October - uCrow promises RE that no sieges or attacks will be sent to their cities. 30th of October - Nistiner sends various attacks to my cities. 30th of October - Peace talks break down. uCrow notifies RE that we refuse to continue peace talks while RE armies march towards our cities. 1st of November - Nistiner contacts me again to ask for peace, I remind him that uCrow will not negotiate while we have inbound attacks. 3rd of November - Nistiners attacks prove to be feints. 4th of November - Myself and Janosch discuss terms for RE, she agrees to take the lead in negotiations. 8th of November - Peace talks break down. Zynot attacks kErru, a member of HEAT (Non-Aligned-Movement Confederation) 9th of November - I notify Janosch that given the recent ceasefire violations by RE, I no longer wish to waste my time with peace negotiations. We agree that a month-long ceasefire is the only way forward. 29th of december - Dittobite and myself exchange messages regarding RE's surrender terms 4th of January - Prares and myself exchange messages regarding Ajeka's (CK leader at the time) absence, and the possibilities for peace with RE. 8th of January - uCrow posts on the forum declaring peace with RE. link below...  > http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/ucrow-naam-ck-declare-peace-with-roman-empire_topic5381.html The whole debacle took 3 months to resolve. It should be noted that there were more incidents like ceasefire violations. But despite everything, RE faired pretty well in the war and peace was achieved with virtually no destruction or punitive terms. edit: corrected spelling

Tamaeaon wrote: 14th of October - uCrow warns RE (3rd time) to immediately remove all TVM members from their ranks, warning that failure to comply will lead to an imminent escalation of the war.

I have a couple of questions about this.

1. Why was our presence a point of contention? There were maybe 3 accounts that went over (before uCrow got involved and maybe more accounts went over, but I don't have the records available to tell me) and they never once sent armies or diplomats at any accounts. The entire time, Nalleen was doing her best to teach RE members how to defend themselves, which they clearly had no idea of how to do. She told them that if there were any offensive action from RE, she and the rest of our members would leave and they would lose all support from us. I was in communication with Prares and disclosed all of the above to him. As far as I know, RE followed these instructions and not once launched any type of offensive action against XckX.

TVM members never once did anything that could be construed as offensive. In the alliance, we did nothing to indicate we were taking an offensive role. In RE, our members never did anything to indicate that. Prares knew about all of this.

2. Why was TVM not contacted? There was never a message to me or any other member that I am aware of from you or any other uCrow member or anyone at all, including RE stating that our presence in RE was an issue of contention. We were never asked by RE or anyone to leave RE. The first I heard of it was AFTER our guys came home.

Edited by abstractdream - 27 Jan 2015 at 00:46

Consul Zynot wrote: Tamaeon wrote: Consul Zynot wrote: Prares wrote: I've sent my even more lengthy remembrances of the war privately to Orik, but since Celtic Knights have been mentioned in this thread several times want to let you all know my view of these matters from our side (not through our RT, just my personal thoughts). RE - we declared war against them for much the same reasons we'd fought before. Why did Ajeka declare war rather than just hit them a few times - no idea. Did he declare "we'll eliminate them" in his war speech to the alliance - yes he did, but I frankly took no notice of that as was pretty standard AC fare. I did have good conversations with Bonfyr Verboo, and then with Zynot and Nistiner and others in RE and our war was resolved in about 10 days. The war status remained there for months because that was the bargaining chip with Sir Bradly - his sole aim in discussions was to split us from our friends in BANE, NAAM and the warring Crow alliances (we did have good relations with CalcCr prior but no real connections with the others) KP, Kumo and The Dude - vituperative responses on forum when I was putting forward our position resolved me to keep going regardless of what I thought was certain destruction of my account. At that stage we had no war allies but Ajeka was talking to all possible helpers. The H? pax in Illy was a pox on the game for me and I'm very glad that amount of wideranging power has been broken as a result of the war. Ajeka declared war on RE because RE at the  time was a very easy target for him   he did not even bother to mail me   and when i mailed him about the causes he  refused to  respond to me and nistiner  all he did was cry later on when NC   decided to help out. Now  i know    SB and  CK was having good peace talks, especially with TVM also who was trying to mediate peace   but then Tamaeon came into the phrase and    everyone kissed   peace good bye on that matter. Just had to respond to that as it   involved RE. For the record, I still have the messages exchanged with RE, including... the negotiation of a ceasefire between CK and RE, immediately after uCrow declared on NC your rejections of white peace with CK my warnings not to add TVM players to RE  our complaints after RE declared on uCrow my proposal for a ceasefire between uCrow and RE my promise that uCrow would not launch any sieges against RE, provided the ceasefire agreements with uCrow and CK would be upheld And more... This is one of the key reasons the war became so destructive. Early on there were alliances on your side which could not be trusted to negotiate in good faith. This definitely changed somewhere down the road, but it was really frustrating in the early stages. I would  love to see the mail in which Celtic Knights  and Ucrow offered NC and RE white peace,   But  i am sure it never happened thus it does not exist

Page 22 to finally rate a mention from Angrim!! Please remember that all of his conclusions are based on his summation of the facts as he sees them. That does not make them invalid, but highly questionable as Angrim does not believe in the warring part of the game. ( but his is a warrior in the forums!)
As someone who emraces the peaceful side of the game (and we need these players too!) and not privvy to our skype chats, many of these one on one, his conclusions will be dubious as they do not include all the facts.