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The Great War

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Epidemic View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epidemic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2015 at 21:11
What started the war and what caused supposed peaceful alliances to turn the game into evony? As an outsider who was quite active at the time I can give my perspective;

1)The confederation who lost the last war was still bitter and wanted revenge.
2)The minor wars between NC and BANE, which saw many players from other alliances join in.
3)A minor skirmish between Tcol and some other alliance I can't remember the name of.
4)Personal hatreds and feuds, especially against The_Dude.
5)Fear that H? would somehow come back to win became 'destroy them before they destroy us'
5)Bored players with a ton of resources and permasits, plus blind followers.
6)A snub of general chat for outside confed chat rooms that alienated the community
7)The war between I think uCrow, Alt, Celtic Knights and RE unleashed the game plan that the 'peaceful' alliances coordinated at least 6 months beforehand.

All this lead up to Illy turning into Evony for close to a year.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tamaeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2015 at 23:50
Originally posted by Hora Hora wrote:

Guys, why not offer some dates, approximate or even exact data on towns lost, number of players who chose personal surrender, etc...
I have some data from the war, but its purely for archival purposes.

Originally posted by Hora Hora wrote:

So point 2: When would each side date the start of the war, maybe starting with the smaller alliances' wars at the beginning?
For me the war started when H? threatened war against DARK for intervening to stop the NC vs. BANE conflict. Elsewhere in illyriad Kumo and KP were making very public comments to the effect that Crowfed was getting too large, and was starting to smother the game. And in yet another corner of illyriad... H? was threatening to siege a player called Hannibal Foulwind out of the game.

There might be some protest/upheaval about that last claim, but make no mistake; its a confirmed fact.

It would ultimately take a few weeks before the first war declarations; but in my opinion it was these events, which lead to the conversations which ultimately gave birth to a Grand Alliance.

As far as timelines go, I'd say this happened in August and early September 2013.

edit: Corrected dates from 2014 to 2013 LOL


Edited by Tamaeon - 14 Jan 2015 at 00:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tamaeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2015 at 00:52
lol Epi LOL

As an insider I would comment the following...

Originally posted by Epidemic Epidemic wrote:

What started the war and what caused supposed peaceful alliances to turn the game into evony? As an outsider who was quite active at the time I can give my perspective;

1)The confederation who lost the last war was still bitter and wanted revenge.
I can't comment on desires for revenge and such; but I can say with absolute confidence that most Consone alliances were not involved in the Great War.

Originally posted by Epidemic Epidemic wrote:


2)The minor wars between NC and BANE, which saw many players from other alliances join in.
Spot on. The circumstances surrounding that war (especially the flimsy casus belli) were a major factor for at least 6 alliances (including my own) to join the GA.

Originally posted by Epidemic Epidemic wrote:

3)A minor skirmish between Tcol and some other alliance I can't remember the name of.
Could it have been the skirmish between BSH(TCol) and uCrow? If you're referring to this incident... then yes, it also played a role.

Originally posted by Epidemic Epidemic wrote:


4)Personal hatreds and feuds, especially against The_Dude.
I'm not sure what to say to that, except that The_Dude was never an "objective" for the GA. He was obviously a high value target as the leader of RES; but I doubt he was ever a prefered targeted due to his infamy.

Originally posted by Epidemic Epidemic wrote:


5)Fear that H? would somehow come back to win became 'destroy them before they destroy us'
This one's definitely wrong. Everyone in the GA knew the war was won from the very beginning. We had overwhelming numbers and the geographical advantage to win the war.

Here's a little fact that only the leaders of the GA alliances know: We put considerable effort early on, into discouraging the other side from fighting. Unfortunately their messaging was stronger than ours, and it resulted in the other side being even more determined to fight. Geek

Originally posted by Epidemic Epidemic wrote:

6)Bored players with a ton of resources and permasits, plus blind followers.
I respectfully disagree. As far as I know; every alliance informed their members and offered them the possibility of opting out of the conflict. So no blind followers, only willing participants.

Originally posted by Epidemic Epidemic wrote:


7)A snub of general chat for outside confed chat rooms that alienated the community
I don't know what to say to that. Illyriad does not have confed chat, or the ability for group chats so people have to resort to other mediums like chatzy.

Originally posted by Epidemic Epidemic wrote:


8)The war between I think uCrow, Alt, Celtic Knights and RE unleashed the game plan that the 'peaceful' alliances coordinated at least 6 months beforehand.
It definitely wasn't 6 months beforehand, but I will not deny that there was some premeditation. Please my comment above for more info...

Originally posted by Epidemic Epidemic wrote:


All this lead up to Illy turning into Evony for close to a year.
And yet you made a killing on the markets, and never suffered a single attack! lol Tongue

All in all I found your insights quite interesting and even a little funny. Hope my comments don't come across too harsh. Thanks for sharing!

Originally posted by DISCLAIMER: DISCLAIMER: wrote:

I have no intention of hijacking this post, or dictating the outcome of Orin's historical account of the Great War. I will limit myself to offering my personal opinion; sharing some insider secrets every now and again, and disagreeing where necessary. As the war has long past, it is my sole intention, to have a constructive conversation about its history.

"How happy is the blameless vestal's lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each prayer accepted, and each wish resigned."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tamaeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2015 at 01:09
If we're going to discuss war, why not do it while enjoying good music? Wink


"How happy is the blameless vestal's lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each prayer accepted, and each wish resigned."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KillerPoodle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2015 at 04:23
Originally posted by Tamaeon Tamaeon wrote:

For me the war started when H? threatened war against DARK for intervening to stop the NC vs. BANE conflict. Elsewhere in illyriad Kumo and KP were making very public comments to the effect that Crowfed was getting too large, and was starting to smother the game. And in yet another corner of illyriad... H? was threatening to siege a player called Hannibal Foulwind out of the game.

There might be some protest/upheaval about that last claim, but make no mistake; its a confirmed fact.

It would ultimately take a few weeks before the first war declarations; but in my opinion it was these events, which lead to the conversations which ultimately gave birth to a Grand Alliance.

As far as timelines go, I'd say this happened in August and early September 2013.

edit: Corrected dates from 2014 to 2013 LOL


I was gonna stay out of this but I'm compelled by the sheer egregiousness of this biased doublethink and slander.

Case 1 - Dark/Bane/NC
Doublethink Exhibit A:  Dark threatened war to defend an ally, H? responded with a similar threat and yet Dark = Good and H? = Bad.

Doublethink Exhibit B: The reason NC/Bane war was still going was because Bane didn't want to surrender. So Tamaeon is using an alliance defending another alliances right not to surrender as his excuse for war.  Have a look at the other posts he's made about surrender in this thread and see if you can reconcile that piece of fancy footwork

Doublethink Exhibit C: Dark chose to break the former ties of the coalition by siding with Bane against NC (their former ally) so despite the fact that every H? action was only in response to a Dark move they proceeded to whine in GC for over a year about how H? betrayed them.

Case 2 - Crowfed
Firstly, I said nothing about Crowfed being too large (but as we know Tamaeon does not let facts get in the way of a good story).

Secondly, Kumo's concerns (despite the poor way they were voiced) proved to be completely accurate and valid based on the subsequent behavior of vCrow, uCrow, nCrow.  Fortunately other crows like mCrow and eCrow showed they had a little more moral fiber.

Case 3 - HFW
There was a period in time when HFW would regularly login to one of the accounts he was sitting and rant about H? in GC under that cover - not realising it was perfectly obvious who it was. Then he went silent and we were informed he had quit so we decided to take a few cities for our members (especially since one was still owed from the Consone settlement).

Once we found he had not quit and he finally started being somewhat reasonable we quickly came to an arrangement where he stopped trying to trash us all the time and we left him alone.

At no point did we threaten to remove him from the game.  We did threaten to do him some serious damage if he didn't stop being obnoxious but no threat of sieging out of the game. I did say to Hath that if the poor behavior continued then it would be of benefit to the entire game if he just abandonded but that was as far as it went.

Case 4 - more hypocrisy
Originally posted by Tamaeon Tamaeon wrote:

We gave everyone the option of individual surrender on good terms.

Originally posted by Tamaeon Tamaeon wrote:

You know full well that we ultimately held you and your former alliance responsible for the enormous toll of the great war. It's rather obvious that you wouldn't be afforded the same treatment as the other alliances

Even in the context of this thread, you're still making stuff up to suit whatever argument you are trying to present.  The fact is that the surrender terms were much harsher than previous wars, did include city surrender (in some cases) and you also admitted that even if H? had surrendered we would not have received reasonable terms whereas at the time you were all "Just surrender and it will be fine" in public.

Case 5 - looking for the facts
Originally posted by Tamaeon Tamaeon wrote:

Everyone in the GA knew the war was won from the very beginning.

In this very forum The Duke himself claimed that he had no idea if GA would win or not - so who's lying, you or him?

Conclusion
I think the main issue here is that Tamaeon has been fed a such a steady diet of Anti-H propaganda that he just comes out with a constant stream of whatever he can think of to say that is anti-H? regardless of the fact that is self-contradictory rubbish at best and flat out lies at worst.


Edited by KillerPoodle - 14 Jan 2015 at 04:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hora Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2015 at 11:44
If I learned anything from the Consone war, then it was that each side has it's own facts (honest facts they believe in).
Even if one manages to take away all the "propaganda", you'll end up with two different biased stories!

So why not compare those and tell one story with two sides; without accusing the other side as liers. 
It might be true, it might be vaguely untrue from your point of view. 
And that is even more true for motives and reasons than it is for the facts themself...

Just state your view/facts is/are different and don't start another war on history writing Wink


Edited by Hora - 14 Jan 2015 at 11:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KillerPoodle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2015 at 14:59
Hora - if those "honest facts" manage to contradict themselves within the first 4 pages of a thread then I think you can pretty safely say that they are neither honest nor facts.


Edited by KillerPoodle - 14 Jan 2015 at 15:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thexion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2015 at 16:20
Just looking at this thread Im not sure is history of that war be very fun or interesting,but it would create lot of that old and bitter illy forum discussion that we all miss LOL

Seriously maybe all parties involved and interested enough should write their version of what took place.
Perhaps out of this forum since it is nice to see orginal copies of IGMs and such to prove things. 

 


Edited by Thexion - 14 Jan 2015 at 16:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tamaeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2015 at 18:11
First of all, welcome to the thread KP. Hope we can have a good conversation without resorting to propagandist tactics, truth monopolization and spin. Here's my reply...
Originally posted by KillerPoodle KillerPoodle wrote:

Originally posted by Tamaeon Tamaeon wrote:

For me the war started when H? threatened war against DARK for intervening to stop the NC vs. BANE conflict. Elsewhere in illyriad Kumo and KP were making very public comments to the effect that Crowfed was getting too large, and was starting to smother the game. And in yet another corner of illyriad... H? was threatening to siege a player called Hannibal Foulwind out of the game.

There might be some protest/upheaval about that last claim, but make no mistake; its a confirmed fact.

It would ultimately take a few weeks before the first war declarations; but in my opinion it was these events, which lead to the conversations which ultimately gave birth to a Grand Alliance.

I was gonna stay out of this but I'm compelled by the sheer egregiousness of this biased doublethink and slander.

Case 1 - Dark/Bane/NC
Doublethink Exhibit A:  Dark threatened war to defend an ally, H? responded with a similar threat and yet Dark = Good and H? = Bad.
Did I at any point say that H? is/was bad?
genuinely believe that people were increasingly threatened by H?'s words and actions, and especially that pathological need to always claim moral superiority.

Originally posted by KillerPoodle KillerPoodle wrote:


Doublethink Exhibit B: The reason NC/Bane war was still going was because Bane didn't want to surrender. So Tamaeon is using an alliance defending another alliances right not to surrender as his excuse for war.  Have a look at the other posts he's made about surrender in this thread and see if you can reconcile that piece of fancy footwork
Quite the opposite.

Dark was not defending BANE's right not to surrender. They were trying to mediate an end to the war. There was considerable commotion, even outrage over the casus belli and a general perception that the war was unjust.

Halcyon was in fact trying to negotiate white peace as an alternative to surrender. When this failed, he tried to join BANE and eventually offered DARK as a substitute sparring partner.

Here's a link to one of the pivotal public discussions about the NC vs. BANE war:

Originally posted by KillerPoodle KillerPoodle wrote:


Doublethink Exhibit C: Dark chose to break the former ties of the coalition by siding with Bane against NC (their former ally) so despite the fact that every H? action was only in response to a Dark move they proceeded to whine in GC for over a year about how H? betrayed them.
I disagree. I know quite a few people who believe that H? chose to isolate DARK. This happened during the very public disagreement over the NC vs. BANE war. I cannot speak for DARK, but it seems rather obvious that H?'s actions and rhetoric at the time, gave common cause to multiple alliances that eventually joined to form the GA.

Originally posted by KillerPoodle KillerPoodle wrote:


Case 2 - Crowfed
Firstly, I said nothing about Crowfed being too large (but as we know Tamaeon does not let facts get in the way of a good story).

Secondly, Kumo's concerns (despite the poor way they were voiced) proved to be completely accurate and valid based on the subsequent behavior of vCrow, uCrow, nCrow.  Fortunately other crows like mCrow and eCrow showed they had a little more moral fiber.
I'm not even going to justify this nonsense with an answer. Save that Koolaid for your followers LOL

Originally posted by KillerPoodle KillerPoodle wrote:


Case 3 - HFW
At no point did we threaten to remove him from the game.  We did threaten to do him some serious damage if he didn't stop being obnoxious but no threat of sieging out of the game. I did say to Hath that if the poor behavior continued then it would be of benefit to the entire game if he just abandonded but that was as far as it went.
You forget that members of the GA previously had access to the H? embassy, and other coalition resources. I won't name any names, but a convincing case was made that H? directors were saying the game would be quote: "better off without Hannibal Foul Wind".

Again, my intention is not to accuse or slander. I'm merely pointing out some of the factors that played a role in the formation of the GA.

Originally posted by KillerPoodle KillerPoodle wrote:


Case 4 - more hypocrisy
Originally posted by Tamaeon Tamaeon wrote:

We gave everyone the option of individual surrender on good terms.

Originally posted by Tamaeon Tamaeon wrote:

You know full well that we ultimately held you and your former alliance responsible for the enormous toll of the great war. It's rather obvious that you wouldn't be afforded the same treatment as the other alliances

Even in the context of this thread, you're still making stuff up to suit whatever argument you are trying to present.  The fact is that the surrender terms were much harsher than previous wars, did include city surrender (in some cases) and you also admitted that even if H? had surrendered we would not have received reasonable terms whereas at the time you were all "Just surrender and it will be fine" in public.
Let's look at the facts then, here's a link to the Harmless surrender announcement:

I will state once again that I'm only participating in this discussion to share my own opinions and insights about the Great War and the Grand Alliance. I have no interest whatsoever in accusing anyone and pointing fingers; I'm merely trying to express my own thoughts about the events, and recounting them as I and other leaders on my side experienced them.

Originally posted by KillerPoodle KillerPoodle wrote:


Case 5 - looking for the facts
Originally posted by Tamaeon Tamaeon wrote:

Everyone in the GA knew the war was won from the very beginning.

In this very forum The Duke himself claimed that he had no idea if GA would win or not - so who's lying, you or him?
I don't know if the duke had any doubts about our chances to secure victory; but I will say that this isn't a black and white situation. Of course its possible that some leaders on our side had doubts about the viability of the war, but that doesn't automatically imply a lack of consistency or decisiveness on our part. The fact is that we fought together to the end; fulfilling the pledge we made to each other when the GA was formed.

Originally posted by KillerPoodle KillerPoodle wrote:


Conclusion
I think the main issue here is that Tamaeon has been fed a such a steady diet of Anti-H propaganda that he just comes out with a constant stream of whatever he can think of to say that is anti-H? regardless of the fact that is self-contradictory rubbish at best and flat out lies at worst.
I don't have any kind of animus towards H?. Kumo and I used to be quite friendly, until it became clear that our interests were being targeted. We went from viewing you as a natural and longstanding ally, to an actual threat to our continued existence. It's not a personal matter, but rather an issue of geopolitical interests.

Ultimately the choice is yours, to chalk up the war and the events that preceded it as a personal matter... or acknowledge the obvious fact, that you (H? et al) were viewed as a growing threat that needed to be dealt with.

In closing I'd like to invite constructive reflection going forward. Please try to ease up on the Orwellian drama and false outrage; so we can focus on telling all sides of the story. All perspectives are valid, and should provide insight into the reasoning behind each and every faction involved in the Great War.

"How happy is the blameless vestal's lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each prayer accepted, and each wish resigned."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tamaeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2015 at 18:24
Originally posted by Hora Hora wrote:

If I learned anything from the Consone war, then it was that each side has it's own facts (honest facts they believe in).
Even if one manages to take away all the "propaganda", you'll end up with two different biased stories!
I couldn't agree more Hora, wise words! Thumbs Up

Originally posted by Hora Hora wrote:

So why not compare those and tell one story with two sides; without accusing the other side as liers. 
It might be true, it might be vaguely untrue from your point of view. 
And that is even more true for motives and reasons than it is for the facts themselves...
Strongly support this, and I want to second this motion. Perhaps we should attempt to make it the mantra for this discussion.

As I mentioned in my reply to KP; all the perspectives of the war are valid, even if one side might disagree with some of the statements. At the end of the war there was a common sentiment on both sides, that there were important lessons to be learned, and agreements that needed to be made in order to avoid a future repetition of the enormous destruction seen during the Great War.

Originally posted by Hora Hora wrote:

Just state your view/facts is/are different and don't start another war on history writing Wink
Agreed, I'm all for this!
"How happy is the blameless vestal's lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each prayer accepted, and each wish resigned."
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