The Great War |
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KillerPoodle
Postmaster General
Joined: 23 Feb 2010 Status: Offline Points: 1853 |
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Posted: 22 Jan 2015 at 03:16 |
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You aren't looking back far enough. A significant part of what people think they know about H?, mostly the negatives, can be traced to Rill's long term defamation and slander campaign against us. |
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"This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM
"a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill |
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Angrim
Postmaster General
Joined: 02 Nov 2011 Location: Laoshin Status: Offline Points: 1173 |
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Posted: 22 Jan 2015 at 02:46 |
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Rhino70
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Joined: 10 Jul 2012 Status: Offline Points: 22 |
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Posted: 22 Jan 2015 at 01:42 |
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Gee, thanks Mr D. I was hoping to stay out of this but it appears I can't. Since this post started I really thought that not much good could become of it and while it doesn't exactly look good, maybe it turns out okay. On that note, I am really not going to elaborate on the reasons why SOON joined in this fight. We had our reasons but I am not going to have my words picked up, chewed on and then spit back out as some ongoing conspiracy or slander. I will keep this short and simple:-We joined in the war. (Again, we had our reasons) -We participated in the war. (This was quite interesting and we did learn a lot from this) -Once we felt our goals were achieved, we got out. Quietly. (We had our reasons for this too) Best wishes to the rest that participate in this ongoing discussions. May the odds be in your favor.
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Mona Lisa
Wordsmith
Joined: 22 Feb 2012 Status: Offline Points: 120 |
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Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 23:09 |
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Memoirs of a “Banshee” (so named by a fallen foe…)
Fade in : The Consone War was raging, and a poorly timed tourney kept
those of us not in the War busy with troops in a somewhat less destructive
manner. I just so happened to be a Rook (Rooks are the leaders of the respective Crow Wings) in both Crow and nCrow deeply immersed
in trying to keep two tournament strategies in line and out of friendly
fire. Events outside the tourney, and the Consone War, transpired
to have me call into question my role in leadership within
the Crowfed. Seeking not to stir further
dissension, I resigned my Rookdoms and, as soon as the tourney ended, left the
Crowfed, spent a little time as a Trout, then formed my semi retirement
alliance of BLOC-Q. I had grown weary of
Illy, and expected my full departure was very near. Through my semi-retirement, I maintained contact (in and out
of game) with people in Crow. I kept
abreast of developments in game, and was eventually convinced by a certain key
player that storm clouds were brewing, and that Crow’s northern borders sorely
needed a strong presence. Harry,
Cookieman and Rill had all gone inactive in nCrow, and new Rooks had come to
the fore in potentially dangerous times.
In August before the war, I was convinced to return Mona and Roux to
vCrow ( not initially nCrow) in order to help bolster the lines in the North. Certain powerblocs were beginning to take shape and that War
with H?, unthinkable in the past, was not out of the question. . . a host of reasons, shifting
allegiances and past histories had conspired to alter the status quo . . . Dlords, H?’s blood brothers, was now part of the Dominion. . . nCrow had had a long history of minor territorial squabbles with TCol in
Keshalia, relations with TO had always been strained as well . . . any blow up
on the Dominion front now could embroil Dlords who had historically been on
very good terms with vCrow and the Crowfed in general. If Dlords became embattled, their strong
bonds with H? could then commit H? to defend their Dwarven allies. Politics had become messy. In the Consone war, NC had cozied themselves up closely to
H? and was their reliable ally in the conflict, H? made never shied away in GC
of the fact that they would stand with those who stood with them. NC had a long history of tweaking some
Crowfed noses at every opportunity, nearly coming to blows with uCrow and nCrow
in the not too distant past, they were getting more and more reckless and unpredictable (from Crow view). Leaders in H? seemed amused by NC's antics, and did little to calm Crowfed's anxiety. Toss TVM’s
increasing ties with N, NC and their role in the BANE war, and the long
standing tension between them and nCrow further complicated the mix. Trouble
with NC now meant trouble with TVM and most importantly H?, trouble with H?
invoked trouble with Dlords , trouble with Dlords invoked trouble with the
Dominion … messy times indeed . . . Further tangles could found within Crowfed itself, many within mCrow had long and storied ties
with people in H?, conflict between H? and Crowfed would cause certain strife
within Crow. It was similarly known that eCrow had certain tolerances for NC
that were not necessarily shared by vCrow, nCrow, uCrow, likewise the geography
of eCrow and the evolution of various relationships put eCrow on very
comfortable ground with alliances of the Dominion. Alliances can indeed be very tricky affairs (I now look back and better appreciate both of
their positions) . . . . Eventually I was moved from vCrow back to nCrow to help rally
the troops and brace for what was to come …. Sooner or later something was bound to give, nearly any
altercation on any side could trigger Armageddon. The metagame reached a fevered pitch, unlikely
alliances were forged, formerly tense or outright hostile past dealings were
laid to rest in the interest of a common goal, and the Grand Alliance was
formed. It is not proper for me to go
into details, but it was a truly herculean feat. I was aware of a great deal, but no doubt much occurred
that I can only guess at . . . There was little surprise when a relatively minor
altercation (shades of the Trove War) blew up out of proportion into the
biggest war in Illy’s history, it was inevitable at that point. The only
question was where the fence sitters would lean… Contrary to Tam’s view (no doubt accurate for him, but
gauging these things is never an exact science, and likely I was privy to
details that Tam was not), the final outcome was never a foregone conclusion in
the early days. Any number of events could have entirely derailed the war from
the GA’s viewpoint. Could all the
various alliances be kept focused and engaged?
Could internal bickering cause some alliance to flip? Would the “Neutral”
alliances remain neutral, or might they suddenly throw down the gauntlet? Could the GA shoulder the immense cost of the
war? Could coalition alliances be split
out of the fold or would they all fight to the last city? Eventually, sheer weight of numbers did make the outcome a
foregone conclusion, but it did take a good long time (although actually faster than I had guessed).
In the end, Illy is very much ruled by simple mathematics. 1 on 1 I do not doubt that H? would most likely defeat
any single alliance, they are an incredibly disciplined and efficient
organization. However, given the numbers arrayed against them, it was only a
matter of time before attrition would take its toll. I have to believe that if leaders of H? were honest about the events, they would admit that the solidarity and the unity with which the GA acted had to have caught them off-guard. I worried often that the train would come off its rails, it was never an easy task to keep the tracks well-oiled and pointed in the right direction. The real crowning achievement in the war was that so many alliances with such disparate views and objectives could be wielded effectively. Make no mistake, the war was won in the metagame . . . and that story would be a good one . . . ( I was but an observer, that tale is not mine to tell . . .) Mona Lisa Aka “Banshee of the North” P.S. One commonly held myth I can, without question, totally dismantle based on first-hand knowledge. Contrary to the beliefs held by many in H?, Rill played utterly no part in any of the events that formed the GA or led up to the war. In fact, Rill had gone missing from Illy in the months leading up to the war, she had already abandoned Ryelle’s account during the Consone war, and did not return to actively playing until well after hostilities began (as one of Rill’s sitters, I can swear to that fact…). Sorry
to burst any conspiracy bubbles . . .there was, however, no shortage of other conspiracies much more entertaining . . . . Edited by Mona Lisa - 22 Jan 2015 at 00:49 |
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Tamaeon
Wordsmith
Joined: 19 Dec 2011 Location: Centrum Status: Offline Points: 152 |
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Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 22:43 |
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That's a good thing. For the record, I have no problem with an honest debate. There's a reason why I'm only posting on the forum, and not just writing Orin igm's giving my own accounts. That said, as mentioned in my reply to Brandmeister... we're better of agreeing to disagree on certain things.
We were indeed a tranquil alliance, despite my occasional belligerence and our involvement in the Great War. I've been reading through my inbox and have uncovered more interesting info to share with those interested. Would you have any suggestions?
Regarding terms, I've already indicated that I personally have no objections to them being made public, under the condition that H? and the coalition agree to do the same for previous wars. That being said, you mentioned that "reasonable" and "good" were a matter of perception, and I already agreed with you. Regarding parole, not sure I agree with the term... but its entirely possible that some players or alliances had to wait for an extended period for replies etc. Large wars are very chaotic and it can be very hard to keep track of everything. I remember negotiating a ceasefire with RE, and then relying on Dittobite to step in and complete a peace deal. RE had to wait for weeks, but if memory serves, the ceasefire was mostly upheld.
What would you consider to be propagandist tactics and spin? So far I've really been going out of my way to accommodate your objections by using the words "subjective", "perceived" and "in my opinion" in most of my sentences. I've even suggested that we simply agree to disagree on certain things. Regarding "truth monopolization"; I don't subscribe to the absolutist school of "there is only one truth". In my opinion truth is a relative concept, this may be another one of those things we need to agree to disagree on.
I was in fact around for most of last year, otherwise my account would have been removed due to inactivity. At some point I think I was gone for 80 days, which isn't even close to most of the year. I will concede that I was relatively inactive for most of the year. Real life happens.
All I have to say to that is... . I'd use a facepalm, but we don't currently have that emoticon.
I agree. And if you remember, I started sounding the alarms from the moment NC thought it would be "funny" to siege a HugCr town back in April of 2013.
I'm not aware of anyone breaking confed agreements or even leaving the confederation, but maybe I missed something.
I'm open to the idea that "my faction" may have mischaracterized the point of that post, if you care to enlighten me about it, I may be open to showing you a chat transcript in which you were quite vocal about your intention to quote: "up eCrow's numbers, and get some land from (insert other Crow alliance)" and also your intention to "redefine who crows really are".
I really hope I'm not the reason you've chosen not to be confederated with vCrow and nCrow.
That's not what I heard. But I can understand that you didn't consult some of us; after all, you did intend to kick us out of the confederation. I recall rather vividly your remarks about vCrow and uCrow breaking an unwritten rule, by deciding to join the war without a 100% consensus amongst Crowfed leadership. You made comments like "If I knew we were counting rooks, I would have made everyone in eCrow a rook." also "Crowfed is not a republic, stop trying to make it one".
No comment.
Not so much a secret agenda, but a clear preference for, and allegiance to the coalition.
Most if not all of what you tried was out in the open, whether or not you were aware of it. I'll give you that.
I want to correct something I said above, as it may misrepresent my position. We didn't contact our fellow leaders to "notify" them that the war was happening, but rather to inform them that it was about to start. It was a heads up and a reassurance, not a press release or something of the sorts. I made my peace with your dissenting opinions and commentary before the war even started. In one of the messages I wrote during the early days of the war, I sincerely apologized for being harsh at times, and explained that the war had already started, so I was no longer able to continue our long discussion over its merits, causes or the eventual consequences. Not because I wasn't interested in what you had to say, but rather due to the time constraints. I'm sure you can understand that my time, attention and focus were needed elsewhere. |
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"How happy is the blameless vestal's lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each prayer accepted, and each wish resigned."
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Rill
Postmaster General
Player Council - Geographer Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 6903 |
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Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 20:12 |
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@KillerPoodle: Disagreement is not the same as intolerance. My main point is that the CrowFed can handle having disagreements and even heated arguments without "breaking." When I disagree with someone, I am not shy about expressing it. I do not attempt (other than by persuasion, and on one occasion by city placement ) to change the beliefs of people with whom I don't agree.@Nokigon Then there is the question not of beliefs but of actions. At what point does one decide that another person's actions have crossed a line into one's own virtual space and decide to take action to address that? It's a question I struggle with. I did not have the answer to this prior to the war, and I don't now. I would say that is the question about which I perceived the Crows to be most divided. I think many in the Crow Fed were concerned by some actions of NC and Harmless? The question was what, if anything, should be done about it. This was a question that different Crow alliances had different views on, and I respect the choices that each made. In terms of when to act and when to remain neutral, that is also a question that different Crow alliances have decided differently during their history. For example, mCrow was the only Crow alliance to join in the Valar war; the others decided to remain neutral. (Keep in mind that at that point there were only 3 Crow alliances: mCrow, Crow and Calcr.) In the most recent war, mCrow, eCrow, KCrow and HUGcr remained neutral, while vCrow, uCrow, Calcr and nCrow participated to differing degrees and against different opponents. Differences of opinion (and sometimes conflict of personality) divide us, but we remain Crows.
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Epidemic
Postmaster
Joined: 03 Nov 2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 768 |
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Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 18:23 |
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That is one of the nicest things anybody has ever said about me.
I openly, and privately, supplied anybody who needed help. A wide range of players from Ditto to Sir Bradley. |
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Mona Lisa
Wordsmith
Joined: 22 Feb 2012 Status: Offline Points: 120 |
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Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 17:40 |
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Perhaps one of the most concise summations I have seen to date, shades of truth lie within ! Certainly the last reason should not be trivialized . . . I would love to see the impact the war had on the DEV's bottom line, I know people decry the point that sooo many veterans were "driven" from the game, they tend to forget that prior to the war Illy had been on a steep decline (and had been apparently forgotten about by the DEVS), people were already leaving in droves (witness the rise of the sat account syndrome), if anything, love it or hate it, the war did breath some life back into Illy . . . Now, seemingly a new crop of players appear to be joining in the face of renewed attention from the DEVS and a bit of positive press, life begins anew . . . the sky did not fall, the alliances "sieged out of existance" seem to be doing quite well . . . games ebb and flow, alliances rise and fall . . . afterall, it is indeed only a game . . .
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Nokigon
Postmaster General
Player Council - Historian Joined: 07 Nov 2010 Status: Offline Points: 1452 |
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Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 16:31 |
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My apologies for the double post, incidentally.
I cannot claim to have any knowledge of the internal subterfuge involved with both Epidemic and eCrow. All I can state is that if Epidemic was supplying the Coalition too, I was unaware of it- and I find this unlikely, unless it was purely to an alliance which I was not in hugely regular contact with. As for eCrow- Dark Blight considers ourselves to be friends of eCrow, and have been visitors in their alliance on a couple of occasions. I do not believe that Angrim would ever "betray" the Crowfed in the way that you are suggesting, nor was I ever at any point aware of anything more harmful within the ranks of eCrow than pure disgust at what they perceived as manipulation and bullying. Ultimately, of course, we cannot know for sure, due to the ToS in this forum. The Dominion has been accused of being a major power bloc that flexes our muscles in order to bully smaller players and alliances. I bear an unfortunate level of responsibility of this; Aurordan himself has claimed in the past that it was, in large part, my actions in declaring war on the House of Plantaganet that led him to join the Grand Alliance's crusade. I would like to stress for the umpteenth time, simply for the sake of posterity- we do NOT bully new players. As for alliances- wars of aggression undertaken by the Dominion had a very clear purpose, and were fair fights unless escalated by our opponents. But I digress. The Dominion suffered very greatly from the war, and gave us considerable reason to not undertake wars such as the DB-PLAN war again. Despite my confederation's poor reputation within the Grand Alliance, we do not bear the responsibility for orchestrating the war. We were, at best, allies and advisers. Our role was limited to promising our support to NC and TVM, who were fighting wars against opponents who greatly outnumbered in terms of population. Later on, we were ostensibly drawn into the war due to a settlement dispute between TCol and uCrow. This dispute was because Robbrit had settled within the ten square radius of an inactive and unaffliated player called Timothy_. Later, Timothy_ became active once again, joined uCrow and demanded the removal of Robbrit's city. Robbrit was a member of BSH at the time, and referred the matter to Rorgash. Many of you may remember Rorgash; diplomacy was not his strong point, as illustrated by the nature of his in-game departure, in which he attempted to siege his former allies in TCol. He refused point-blank to remove the city, as he claimed that any cities in Mal Motsha belonging to the Black Skull Horde were not privy to the rules and regulations behind the ten square rule. Later, BSH merged with TCol, without informing Kale Weathers of this issue. The first that Kale heard of this entire issue was Tamaeon's notification to Kale that he had sent three sieges in order to remove this city. Kale, angered by Tamaeon's neglect in not discussing the issue with him previously, and also aware that war with uCrow was already looming on the horizon, warned him that these sieges would be broken. It is, however, important to understand that the Dominion did NOT go to war over this dispute- a flimsy casus beli for both sides. Tamaeon's second siege was a feint, and uCrow declared war before the third siege ever landed (the first siege was broken). The Dominion was inevitably going to go to war with the Grand Alliance, because they were determined to achieve war against our allies. Why did they want to go to war against Harmless and NC in particular, but also the Dominion? I have received a wide variety of speculation for this reason.
For the record, I don't actually agree with any one of the above reasons. I suspect that a combination of a couple of them were the true reason, as well as undoubtedly more that I am unaware of. Now- every one of these goals, minus boredom (an ever present problem), have been achieved. The Grand Alliance has achieved what they set out to do. Now I ask them this- if you have achieved such global domination, then why should these terms being revealed be of any concern whatsoever to you?
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Nokigon
Postmaster General
Player Council - Historian Joined: 07 Nov 2010 Status: Offline Points: 1452 |
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Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 15:18 |
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Also fairly amusing judging by the general intolerance vested behind the discussion between Angrim and Tamaeon. Were uCrow a truly tolerant alliance, they would not have taken umbrage with NC's playing style and would not have decided to help to organise the suppression of NC. The only truly "tolerant" alliances that are in the Crowfed by that same logic, then, are the ones who decided to remain neutral. Tamaeon accuses these alliances of being traitors. Further amusement to be had by all.
So, if I am to understand this correctly, were I to simply state the terms (eg. DB had to pay X, Y and Z) without copying it straight from an IGM (which was actually what I was originally suggesting) then that would not violate the ToS? |
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