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Jane DarkMagic 
Postmaster
Joined: 10 Sep 2011
Location: Tennessee
Status: Offline
Points: 554
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 Posted: 17 Oct 2012 at 23:53 |
 Arian wrote:
Just out of curiosity do you conclude the same about Crowfed?
From everything I have read each Crowfed alliance also makes it's own decisions. So can you explain the difference to me?
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With Rill helping to lead two wings, how could we hope to get away with bullying even if we wanted to. She scares us all way too much!
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Silverlake
Forum Warrior
Joined: 15 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 417
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Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 00:04 |
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OH Jane, Mister DrakMagic is a lucky man
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Hora
Postmaster
Joined: 10 May 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 839
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Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 02:20 |
HonoredMule wrote:
Speaking (unofficially in some cases) for the aggrieved parties we represent, I can say issues with Consone usually did not involve any major losses of troops. Rather, the entity within Consone perpetrating the issue simply took what he wanted and the aggrieved felt unable to mount any effective resistance. I know of only one time where someone in Consone tried this kind of stunt and didn't get his way, and that was when a member of Harmless was the intended victim.
A large portion of the incidents were also simply cases of aggressive territorial encroaching by harvesting/gathering units and/or the unwarranted destruction of such in neutral territory. Given that we could not be so easily bullied, our issues directly involving Harmless were usually great in quantity rather than magnitude. More grievous offenses were reserved for far weaker foes (including players in Toothless and DLords, BTW--alliances possessing our very oldest military pledges of support).
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OK... I always find your threads hard to read, but I'll try anyway 
Any negotiations I got involved (especially big ones, like expensive mine disputes with DLords) were settled diplomatically in the end. Yes, there had been military incidents, but mostly when both sides simultaniously had the idea of protecting their gatherers with troups (always a bad idea IMO...). Possible solutions had been shared harvesting (complicated to organize), swaping with other resource plots (you mine this one, you get that one), or even backing down in some nonstrategical cases.
Especially those incidents with DLords had been tricky discussions around some difficulties in their 10 square policy for res plots. But to my knowledge, those had been stated as RESOLVED by BOTH sides.
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Darmon
Forum Warrior
Joined: 15 Aug 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 315
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Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 09:00 |
Hora wrote:
Any negotiations I got involved (especially big ones, like expensive mine disputes with DLords) were settled diplomatically in the end. Yes, there had been military incidents, but mostly when both sides simultaniously had the idea of protecting their gatherers with troups (always a bad idea IMO...).Possible solutions had been shared harvesting (complicated to organize), swaping with other resource plots (you mine this one, you get that one), or even backing down in some nonstrategical cases.
Especially those incidents with DLords had been tricky discussions around some difficulties in their 10 square policy for res plots. But to my knowledge, those had been stated as RESOLVED by BOTH sides. |
It seems to me that a lot of the responsibility for diplomatic talks (successful or otherwise) should fall to the diplomats and parties involved. But for some reason, that aspect seems to have been almost completely ignored, and instead Consone as a whole got blamed very quickly (suspiciously so, in fact).
I can see how that could happen, particularly if the Consone chain-of-command is very uncertain, which seems to be the case. Who knows, maybe this really did spiral out of control and suck everyone in, and there really aren't some ulterior motives driving it all (that would be a hard sell to me, tho).
At some point though, isn't everyone going to have to take a step back and calm down and assess who (if anyone) should be held most accountable for this? Obviously everyone is at fault for the continual escalations, but there seem to be some individuals directly related to the original mine incident that particularly dropped the ball. Unfortunately for the Consone rationale, most of the individuals fall on that side of the battle-lines.
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Hora
Postmaster
Joined: 10 May 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 839
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Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 15:07 |
Darmon wrote:
Who knows, maybe this really did spiral out of control and suck everyone in, and there really aren't some ulterior motives driving it all (that would be a hard sell to me, tho).
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In every war, there are reasons and trigger points, and in most cases, they aren't the same.
Trigger point undoubtly was this mine incident... Set a rare mine between two cities, take out your watch and note the time it takes until the first incident... 
The reason for this war, I'm sure, hasn't been this mine, nor SkB, ABSA, RHY, or Consones actions about it. H? stated nearly immediately after founding of Consone, that Consone is percieved as competitor, maybe even a threat. Diplomatic relations to member alliances went icy, small disputes became hard to discuss, as almost always, sentences like "We would have negotiated, but now you are in Consone..." appeared instantly.
Consone had skipped many strange "incidents" with H?, also several accusations, insults, etc. as we knew H? was prepared for war, and only searching for some point, where they could get onto us without all the bad PR a direct attack would bring.
The (originally) small struggle between ABSA and RHY would have been over soon, and looking on former disputes, most likely via counting damages, stating, it turns out equal, and then discussing about that mine again.
But having such a dispute, while evryone had their armies marching off to tournament plots, must deemed H? as an early birthday present. They would have been silly, not to take this unique constellation to become active.
Oh, and all that talk by KP about players not being able to join White is correct! I'm one of the oldest players in VIC at the moment, and when I started, White was in peaces already. Everything I remember of White are Diablitos silly, racistic insulting and totally MAD posts in forum.
To my knowledge, VIC even was founded by those players in Danger! not even WANTING to join White. Thus peaceful from the start.
So PLEASE don't connect us to those warmongering madmen.
Edited by Hora - 18 Oct 2012 at 15:11
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Tordenkaffen
Postmaster
Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 821
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Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 15:16 |
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Hora I think you all may have meant well when founding Consone, but it would have been better to form just one alliance of able players with respective wing alliances and not push things out on this meta-game level where everything becomes a blurr. It undermines everyones ability to trust fellow players as I see it. Thats bad for Illy.
Anyway, I think I've voiced my opinion on this matter enough, Iacta alia est.
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belargyle
Forum Warrior
Joined: 17 Jun 2010
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 401
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Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 17:01 |
Hora wrote:
Any negotiations I got involved (especially big ones, like expensive mine disputes with DLords) were settled diplomatically in the end. Yes, there had been military incidents, but mostly when both sides simultaniously had the idea of protecting their gatherers with troups (always a bad idea IMO...). Possible solutions had been shared harvesting (complicated to organize), swaping with other resource plots (you mine this one, you get that one), or even backing down in some nonstrategical cases.
Especially those incidents with DLords had been tricky discussions around some difficulties in their 10 square policy for res plots. But to my knowledge, those had been stated as RESOLVED by BOTH sides. |
This is not to be rude but ... Dlord's has never negotiated anything with Consone, only those alliances that are a part of the Consone Confed. Many don't seem to grasp the fact that an alliance in ConFed with Consone is NOT Consone itself. Regarding negotiations with Consone we in fact refused to speak with Consone over issues were the Consone group could have come in if they wished. The reason mostly revolved around the fact that Consone (as a group) was most often brought up in the initial conversation as bully tactic, that if we did not do what the other party wanted they would call in Consone. We told them as we did two in other incidents where they stated they would bring in Consone (implying to make us acquiesce to their wants).. we do not fear Consone nor anyone else in this game however we will not deal with Consone because this is a matter between you and us.
But I do agree.. the discussions were tricky and they resolved themselves, and most specifically of note was HATH of EE and his working with us and making sure His alliance was not shafted in the process. There was even a point when it come to military action for a short time and about 100K troops were lost in total. Neither was 100% satisfied but neither was deprived entirely either. That is where real diplomacy comes into play. An unfortunate event happened at the end where the player at issue left the alliance, but even then it worked itself out with the other alliance.
And yes.. all issues have been resolved, and Dlord is meticulous in the wording and understanding of such contracts.. so we can be real a real A** and stickler about specific things. Such are battlefields of negotiations.
While Consone, in and of itself, has not (to my knowledge) done anything overtly negative prior to this war, it is the actions of some in the group that gives Consone a bad taste in the mouth if not out right anger toward them for allowing such to happen. Everyone in Consone are representatives of Consone. Thus, to quote "Remember the Titans" - "Actions reflect leadership". If these things are allowed then you agree, and you stand behind those decisions as a group even though they are made by individuals.. same as with alliances.
An incident alone by an individual does not make the alliance responsible as a whole. However if that alliance accepts and defends or in the very least does nothing about the 'said' incident, they have agreed with and support the action of the individual thereby making the alliance NOW a part of the issue at hand. They have given licence to act in the manner displayed with their consent and approval thus final authority of the act goes back to the alliance in question.
Edited by belargyle - 18 Oct 2012 at 17:03
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Hora
Postmaster
Joined: 10 May 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 839
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Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 17:11 |
Tordenkaffen wrote:
Hora I think you all may have meant well when founding Consone, but it would have been better to form just one alliance of able players with respective wing alliances and not push things out on this meta-game level where everything becomes a blurr. It undermines everyones ability to trust fellow players as I see it. Thats bad for Illy.
Anyway, I think I've voiced my opinion on this matter enough, Iacta alia est.
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A single alliance would have been easier to organize, thats true. But that never was our aim. We consist of several alliances, each with leaderships and history. Why taking them appart?
As for becoming a blurr...
We had some points stated right from the start:
- Independent alliances, as long as they aren't wing to each other - Shared knowledge, intel and fun via separate forum (advantage: no trolls) - Diplomatic assistance: In conflicts, alliances not being part might still have the cold blood needed for constructiv diplomatic solutions. - Political impact in forums: We chose Jasche as Diplomat for voicing decisions made within the circle of the leaders of our member alliances. Nothing more, nothing less. - Mutual defense: A protocoll you can see in action atm 
All that was stated from the start, thus I don't see your point on how this should hinder anyone trusting his fellow player. Just because some didn't think we would stay true to this points doesn't equal us not being trustworthy.
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ES2
Postmaster
Joined: 25 Sep 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 550
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Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 18:30 |
Hora wrote:
Tordenkaffen wrote:
Hora I think you all may have meant well when founding Consone, but it would have been better to form just one alliance of able players with respective wing alliances and not push things out on this meta-game level where everything becomes a blurr. It undermines everyones ability to trust fellow players as I see it. Thats bad for Illy.
Anyway, I think I've voiced my opinion on this matter enough, Iacta alia est.
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We had some points stated right from the start:
- Independent alliances, as long as they aren't wing to each other - Shared knowledge, intel and fun via separate forum (advantage: no trolls) - Diplomatic assistance: In conflicts, alliances not being part might still have the cold blood needed for constructiv diplomatic solutions. - Political impact in forums: We chose Jasche as Diplomat for voicing decisions made within the circle of the leaders of our member alliances. Nothing more, nothing less. - Mutual aggression: A protocoll you can see in action atm
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Hurm.. yes we can see all those points in effect.
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Eternal Fire
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Kumomoto
Postmaster General
Joined: 19 Oct 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 2224
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Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 21:00 |
Hora wrote:
Oh, and all that talk by KP about players not being able to join White is correct! I'm one of the oldest players in VIC at the moment, and when I started, White was in peaces already. Everything I remember of White are Diablitos silly, racistic insulting and totally MAD posts in forum.
To my knowledge, VIC even was founded by those players in Danger! not even WANTING to join White. Thus peaceful from the start.
So PLEASE don't connect us to those warmongering madmen.
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I'm sure you think you can claim that safely with Warrior Bunny no longer being around, but we both know that many in VIC wanted to throw their weight onto the side of White/Black during that war...
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