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The_Dude 
Postmaster General
Joined: 06 Apr 2010
Location: Texas
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Points: 2396
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 Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 17:42 |
Militiad, could you show a math example of the bonuses that includes a Prestige bonus?
Thanks.
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Miltiad
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Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Location: Illyriad
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Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 17:45 |
Well knight commanders can get some impressive kills against cavalry alone. 5 knight commanders in elite divisions with just lvl 10 avoid charge + nimble horse + pike + thick ring chain (or reinforced plate)
base defense with lvl 10 avoid charge: 1708 equip. bonus: 54%*2 Each commander on plains behind lvl 20 wall has 1708 *2.08*2.45 = 8704 defense against cavalry... commander alone kills 92 attacking knights. If you manage to add 10% divisional defense bonus it has 9059 defense ... meaning it alone kills 96 attacking knights... Of course in cavalry city same commanders can be used for defense as for offense. Above lvl 100 commanders shouldn't have any problems maximizing all needed skills. At least 4 commanders can always reinforce defending city and 1 can do the attacking with the rest of the army...
Interestingly orcish death pack is better than knight in defense. Elite death pack commander with appropriate skills and equipment can alone kill 100 knights.
well prestige bonus is multiplied at last, so this would mean 1708*2.08*2.55 (with extra 10 % divisional bonus)* 1.1 (prestige - defense against cavalry) = 9965.1552 (killing 105,73 attacking knights)
edit: added prestige example
Edited by Miltiad - 28 Feb 2013 at 17:54
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The_Dude
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Joined: 06 Apr 2010
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Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 17:58 |
OK, So equipment modifies "base" values. Then terrain, walls, Cmdr bonuses are added together then applied to the "equipment modified base." That result is then modified for Prestige Bonus.
Cool. Thanks for laying that out for me.
So the caution is the malus modifiers for equipment. Those will be amplified by the subsequent modifiers, too.
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Miltiad
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Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Location: Illyriad
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Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 18:10 |
 The_Dude wrote:
OK, So equipment modifies "base" values. Then terrain, walls, Cmdr bonuses are added together then applied to the "equipment modified base." That result is then modified for Prestige Bonus.
Cool. Thanks for laying that out for me.
So the caution is the malus modifiers for equipment. Those will be amplified by the subsequent modifiers, too. |
Exactly. Usually all direct city attacks on plains are done by cavalry, everything else is just waste of troops since they all get attack penalties and their attack is low anyway. You can also determine, if attacking army is cavalry by it's travelling speed. If attacker is smart and adds one slower unit (or division) in the army than you can always use plainsman spear and plainsman armour + nimble horse = 48% * 2 equipment defense against everything on plains.
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Elmindra
Forum Warrior
Joined: 10 Sep 2012
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Points: 464
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Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 18:16 |
You can think of it this way: Base Value x Equipment Bonus x Original Bonuses x Prestige Bonus. Original bonuses include terrain, commander, walls etc.
The commanders pose an interesting situation as well. Take your 5 elite divisions of spears at 20880 def each, add 5 commanders at 9059 and your total cavalry defense is 153,695.
If they attack with 10k knights with 1 commander, they have 947,719 attack. According to Innoble, casualties is calculated by total army size x off/def ratio. So according to this, you 5 commanders and 1k spears would kill 1622 T2 knights. If they send 20k knights, you would kill 1626 T2 knights. Not bad when you keep all dropped equipment.
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Miltiad
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Joined: 24 Feb 2012
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Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 18:27 |
Elmindra wrote:
You can think of it this way: Base Value x Equipment Bonus x Original Bonuses x Prestige Bonus. Original bonuses include terrain, commander, walls etc.
The commanders pose an interesting situation as well. Take your 5 elite divisions of spears at 20880 def each, add 5 commanders at 9059 and your total cavalry defense is 153,695.
If they attack with 10k knights with 1 commander, they have 947,719 attack. According to Innoble, casualties is calculated by total army size x off/def ratio. So according to this, you 5 commanders and 1k spears would kill 1622 T2 knights. If they send 20k knights, you would kill 1626 T2 knights. Not bad when you keep all dropped equipment. |
and what prevents me to reinforce my own cities? Or my alliance mates to reinforce my city? Few members can easily kill 10K attacking knights by having very small losses...
Well Elmindra your own member Hannibal launched around 10 cavalry attacks against me and he was nice enough to leave few hours in between attacks so I could reequip and refill my elite divisions. Since his armies were rather small (largest being 3500 marshals) I doubt that he got any report back. I urged him not to stop, but he stopped anyway 
Edited by Miltiad - 28 Feb 2013 at 18:35
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Elmindra
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Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 18:30 |
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Hehe nothing at all, we have done this as well. Going back to the original purpose of the thread, this simply shows the one area where T3 equipment is actually worth the effort to produce and use. Every thing else is simply fluff for commanders to kill a few more troops. Watching less than 10k spears kill 10k T2 knights is priceless.
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Brandmeister
Postmaster General
Joined: 12 Oct 2012
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Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 19:45 |
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@TD: if you don't want to amplify penalties for other defense categories, you might try mixing specialized defense items with terrain optimized items, biome items or heavy armor. That will make all modifiers positive, although your desired defense stat will be lessened by at least 4 points.
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Salararius
Postmaster
Joined: 26 Sep 2011
Location: USA
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Points: 519
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Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 20:29 |
geofrey wrote:
Aha wrote:
Some remarks. You don't have full heroism bonus with 19 units. I think that t3 items change the unit stats, so that divisional bonuses apply to these new stats. But I never checked this.
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You have full heroism regardless of the number of units in your army, so long as you've leveled it up.
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If the work Innoble did is right, then Aha's point is correct. The attack value of a commander is limited to the attack strength of the troops in the commander's army. Thus, an army with a knight commander having level 10 Heroism and 19 knights would have a total attack strength of 3,211, 1,606 from the 19 knights and 1,606 from the commander.
The bottom line, you would need about 40 knights for the OP example to be correct. The point is valid but I don't think but it really changes the discussion.
The real cost of t3 equipment is in "clicks" (player keyboard entry events). In a mature city, with one click, I can que up 10k of any t2 resources from the 100s of thousands of basic resources automatically created in the city. With 100k plus stockpiles of t2 equipment, I can que up any size army I want with one more click. Certainly this is not the most efficient in terms of progress but it maximizes the efficiency of a player's time.
At most, a player might have 90 herbalists, skinners or miners that he can send out to gather the rare goods needed for t3 equipment. Mature players will have much fewer cotters and if they wish to acquire these goods on the market then the player will need to be amassing gold and that is a separate process all unto itself. Ultimately, I believe it takes 3-20 times as many game interactions to add the equipment for a soldier as it did to create the soldier. That's a lot more game interaction for the benefit.
Proffering that it takes a significant amount of game time to acquire "meaningful" quantity of T3 gear I would suggest that T3 gear serves to further differentiate the players putting a "great deal" of time into the game from players playing in a more casual manner. Yes, t3 gear is helpful, but the cost is high.
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Brandmeister
Postmaster General
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Location: Laoshin
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Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 22:17 |
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Sal, I think crafting also appeals to a particular play style. Some Illy players are notably non-military, and gathering and crafting give them ongoing activity. That is of course separate from the military advantage to using crafted gear.
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