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Deranzin 
Postmaster
Joined: 10 Oct 2011
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Points: 845
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 Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 09:51 |
 Meagh wrote:
Secondly, I believe that it is more efficient for both attack and defense to build defensive tier 1 units when you consider the cost of recruitment and maintenance per attack / defense point (and even movement points).
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Actually this isn't so, unless you are playing Orcs. With the current lowest centrum prices we have that :
HUMANS - T1 spears cost = 1150g and need 8 minutes 45sec build time
- T2 spears cost = 1900g and need 10 minutes 30 sec and are twice as effective as T1
ELVES - T1 spears cost = 1150g
- T2 spears cost = 1900g
DWARVES - T1 spears cost = 1150g
- T2 spears cost = 1270g (this really is cost effective, to adress Meagh's points, 1 chain and 1 plate is MUCH CHEAPER than 1 chain 1 leather, to adress Elmindra's point as well)
ORCS - T1 spears cost = 375g
- T2 spears cost = 2125g
So, at least as spearmen are concerned T2 units win easily in all races excluding orcs.
For the original conversation, to be honest I do not understand why people propose knights to be used defensively as a cost effective solution and I do not know who would create elite squads for defensive purposes.
Edited by Deranzin - 28 Feb 2013 at 09:56
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Aha
New Poster
Joined: 12 May 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 22
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Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 07:57 |
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If I understood it correctly, then the equipment bonus is multiplied first. The other bonus (walls, divisional, etc) should add up as usual, so they are not multiplicative. That's what I meant with equipment alters unit stats and is thus more valuable than any other bonus.
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Meagh
Forum Warrior
Joined: 16 Jul 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 224
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Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 05:12 |
Elmindra wrote:
I thought dwarven spears were 13 cav def for T1 and 29 cav def for T2? Just checked my alt (is a dorfy) and those numbers are correct. So that means 13cav def per gold for T1, and 14.5cav def per gold for T2. Now I will say that your spears are much more expensive to train initially, 1 chain 1 plate sucks.
As for the town terrain, attack a town directly and you will see in your report that it uses underlying terrain. Same goes for when you do a capture/raze attempt. It lists the building intro when attacking via this method. I am sure someone else can verify but it is the case. |
you're right, for some reason i was looking at the defense against spears. I suppose it really depends on troop makeup and play style... For me, there is no clear benefit of T2 units. The bulk of my army is T1 Infantry and T1 Slingers for defense. In my view the better defense, almost equal attack, better movement and troop capacity, and lower recruitment costs make the T1's a better troop. Compare: Infantry Attack Spear Bow Sword Cav 13.5 7 5.5 8.5 7 Attack Spear Bow Sword Cav 14 6.6 6 7 5.6 ------------------------------------ Bows Attack Spear Bow Sword Cav 7.5 10.5 11 10 6.5 Attack Spear Bow Sword Cav 8.6 10.6 10.3 10 7 *in all cases T1 has better carrying capacity and movement speed Your mileage may vary according to race and troop makeup... but I see no significant benefit for T2 units of any troop type for Dwarves when it comes to maintenance cost. For any minor value you might gain you are sacrificing troop movement speed, paying a higher initial cost per troop and likely devoting one square in your city to make the advanced resource. Who needs a forge when T2 units do not provide a significant advantage? I'd much rather build another advanced building. For the terrain type.. I'll have to pay more attention to the report next time I attack a city. Cheers - M. ps my main point still stands... Elite units for PVP have no practical value in-game.
Edited by Meagh - 28 Feb 2013 at 05:13
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Brandmeister
Postmaster General
Joined: 12 Oct 2012
Location: Laoshin
Status: Offline
Points: 2396
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Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 03:36 |
Meagh wrote:
Maybe the math is different for elven units.. which are op anyways (you guys get the fastest units and the only units that require no armour.. wtf is that about?) |
Actually, orc kobold cohorts cost a beer n' a spear. Dwarves get ripped off on the whole "a beer replaces an item" build thing, because stalwarts still take 2 swords, 1 chain & 1 plate, PLUS a beer.
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Elmindra
Forum Warrior
Joined: 10 Sep 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 464
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Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 03:29 |
I thought dwarven spears were 13 cav def for T1 and 29 cav def for T2? Just checked my alt (is a dorfy) and those numbers are correct. So that means 13cav def per gold for T1, and 14.5cav def per gold for T2. Now I will say that your spears are much more expensive to train initially, 1 chain 1 plate sucks.
As for the town terrain, attack a town directly and you will see in your report that it uses underlying terrain. Same goes for when you do a capture/raze attempt. It lists the building intro when attacking via this method. I am sure someone else can verify but it is the case.
Edited by Elmindra - 28 Feb 2013 at 03:31
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Meagh
Forum Warrior
Joined: 16 Jul 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 224
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Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 02:56 |
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> And no, when doing a straight attack against a town
the underlying terrain modifier is used. Towns only count as buildings
during a raze or capture attempt.
where is the source for this statement? I've seen one or two other players mention here in forums that this is so but have seen nothing from a dev or no testing. It does not make sense that it would work this way.
Maybe the math is different for elven units.. which are op anyways (you guys get the fastest units and the only units that require no armour.. wtf is that about?)... For Dwarven units T1 vs T2 spears, maintenance cost (balancing food / gold with sov - something all older players deal with) is the more important factor imho. With T1 spear units I get 12 defense points against cav per gold of maintenance. For T2 I only get 8.5 points per gold. The clear winner is T1. Further, the devs have mentioned that it is this way by design (no link cus im lazy). - M.
Edited by Meagh - 28 Feb 2013 at 02:59
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Elmindra
Forum Warrior
Joined: 10 Sep 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 464
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Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 02:34 |
The value of T1 vs T2 is arguable. Looking at my elven spears, I get 15def vs cav per gold upkeep with T2 vs 13def vs cav per gold upkeep with T1. Given unlimited training time, a town can support a greater defense with T2 vs T1. In regards to quickly developing an army after losing troops, T1 trains at a base rate of 2246 def vs cav per day, while T2 trains at a base rate of 4320def vs cav per day.
In both examples T2 is superior than T1. The only advantage T1 has over T2 is initial training cost. While T1 is cheap, most people large enough to be worried about the numbers have no problem obtaining the resources to train either unit type.
And no, when doing a straight attack against a town the underlying terrain modifier is used. Towns only count as buildings during a raze or capture attempt.
Edited by Elmindra - 28 Feb 2013 at 02:34
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Meagh
Forum Warrior
Joined: 16 Jul 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 224
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Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 02:23 |
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Some observations... First musings on using elite squadrons for PVP in Elgea can only be a mental exercise with no real in-game application. No player will attack with only elite squadrons. So unless the there is some kind of special tournament - brute force and numbers trump elite squads.
Secondly, I believe that it is more efficient for both attack and defense to build defensive tier 1 units when you consider the cost of recruitment and maintenance per attack / defense point (and even movement points).
Otherwise, good read. - M.
ps - addendum in ref to cav bonuses attacking for towns on any terrain, wouldn't a town be considered 'buildings' terrain and not plains or mountains etc? Cav shuldn't get a terrain bonus.
Edited by Meagh - 28 Feb 2013 at 02:28
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Brandmeister
Postmaster General
Joined: 12 Oct 2012
Location: Laoshin
Status: Offline
Points: 2396
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Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 01:10 |
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The devs really need to change the current system so that a conqueror keeps ALL contents of a city's inventory. It's silly that all the minerals, herbs, anatomies and crafted equipment get destroyed when the city is captured.
They should also consider letting 100% of dropped equipment be recovered. Destruction of equipment in battle might be realistic, but it really discourages people from ever using crafted items on offense (except for commanders, of course).
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Elmindra
Forum Warrior
Joined: 10 Sep 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 464
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Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 00:31 |
I have heard from others and seen first hand in my own attempts that bonuses are multiplicative. I also know that somewhere buried in the forums was a confirmation of multiplicative bonuses from a GM when crafting was first released.
Some further numbers, we can assume that attacking cavalry has 15% charge bonus and 30% terrain bonus attacking a town on plains. That puts their value at 88 attack per vs the above 89 def per for the elite spears equipped. Taking the training time/upkeep/initial cost value of the troops involved, this is always a win for the equipped spears but only in the long term of a conflict. Looking at T1 elite cavalry in defense, we can get 21 base def x 1.15 commander x 2.28 equip x 2.15 wall x 1.3 terrain = 154 cavalry defense. That is almost a 2:1 ratio, offset by the fact that the division sizes are so small. Once again looking at the training time/upkeep/initial cost value, this is again a win for the equipped light cavalry.
The problem with equipment is losing it. The fact that you recover 100% of equipment when defending in a city is the sole reason to use elite equipped companies in these situations.
Bottom line is the equipment makes a different, but probably not in the way intended. Useful defending towns from direct cavalry attacks where all equipment is recoverable but makes an overall difference only in the long term where k/d ratios and attrition are more apparent.
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