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Topic ClosedSpearmen take far too long

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Tordenkaffen View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2011 at 23:20
Wheather or not Illyriad is balanced is beyond me.

Tho for the sake of making a point; when I started out playing I chose Elf and Orc without knowing what that precisely entailed (my own fault and I dont complain).

I would just have to say that I feel somewhat let down or dissappointed that the most warloving race in the game isn't more destructive.
I would sooner argue that orcs should have more/bigger impediments in their way when working towards sieging cities or other structured assaults, than having mediocre units (other than the spearman who functions poorly in assaults/aggression).


Also I was surprised to see the elves have such a powerful unit as their archers (tho I expected they would have an advantage with bows).
I do feel however that if combat magic is added at some point, and elves gain on that in combat, you might want to consider lowering the attack value of the archers a little bit.

Anyway, just my 2 cents


Edited by Tordenkaffen - 17 Mar 2011 at 23:21
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col0005 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2011 at 23:05
Honoured Mule as I said "sometimes HM also appears to mis-interpret or neglect to fully address what has been said"
The comparison was between kobolds and Sentinels so the build cost is 2 spears to 1 bow so the advantage goes to elves(yet again), if you look at T2 it is even more of an elven advantage
Orc 2 spear 1 chain 1 leather (for a slightly less valuabe unit)
Elves 2 bow 1 leather.
Also spearmen are very weak against archers which is good for game balance but because of this you cant say that cavlery defence counters all the production advantages of elven archers as well as the higher attack value.
By you argument elves can over produce archers as they are  cheaper to produce AND faster to build (based on getting equivelent upkeep and as my previous post suggest equivelent value)
 
Ok maybe I was being a bit drastic in saying there is no large advantage, but each unit has it's own situational advantage. If your required to defend a mountain then archers are the best option, and you don't need the long production time. Also a plains square can easily be attacked by archers as well so having a combination would be advisable


Edited by col0005 - 17 Mar 2011 at 23:21
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HonoredMule View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2011 at 16:06
That awesome defense against cavalry IS the big advantage for larger Orc players.  All advantages are situationally specific, and this particular one is specific to players with lots of preparation time defending cavalry-friendly squares (possibly including towns on plains).

Also, you're neglecting the equipment cost.  Trueshot take 1 leather and 2 bows, 2 Kobolds take only 2 spears.  I'm ignoring the beer as extraneous, but the truth is, so are the bows/spears as well as being in balance.  The killer difference is 0 reliance on livestock-derived equipment.  A city producing Kobold Cohorts 24/7 will produce an equipment surplus sufficient to keep another city producing even the most expensive units 24/7.

If you threw in shorter production times, such a city would be ridiculously over-capable.  It should be enough that a well-planned city doesn't need any kind of equipment sovereignty boosts and could instead focus sovereignty entirely on enhancing spearman production.  I've mentioned before that cities can get up to 3x the unit production rate on a specialized unit, but Kobold Cohorts are the only ones that could be produced at that rate without equipment supply issues.  At worst, you could donate spears and beer from another city which is no doubt capable of significant overproduction of that equipment which isn't even used for otherwise-focused cities.  I have 50k+ beer, spears, and bows at all my cities simply because it makes no sense to stop producing but neither do I have need of all that I can produce.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2011 at 02:03
col0005, has my full backing on this :)

i just want to know when i get my race bonus....like the elves mana bonus on spells (or do i already have a bonus i don't see....)
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col0005 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2011 at 01:26
Ummmm not sure how you do maths but it seems that overall the stats seems relatively equal
Kobold Cohort = 18At        26Cv        24Sp       12Ar        24Sw        21.5 Average def
1 Sentinel             =20 At       16Cv        23Sp        24Ar        23Sw        21.5 Average def
 
Now I understand that Cavlery attack will often account for a greater attack percentage and archers are hindered in forests so the lower attack value for spears is fair enough however we are still left with spearmen taking twice as long to produce and are more expensive to produce (2 spearmen to one archer)
 
Oh and yes i have been rolled a few times by HM but sometimes HM also appears to mis-interpret or neglect to fully address what has been said, I still see little advantage for orcs over elves for larger players while I can see great advantages for the elves.


Edited by col0005 - 17 Mar 2011 at 01:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 15:04

Elven Sentinels get a worse defense per gold upkeep than Kobold Cohorts on most values. Therefore, the Orc basic spears are better...

At the end of the day, when all is said and done, it's about how many troops that city can support and what their corresponding values are. For the same amount of gold, you can get more defensive value with 2 Kobold Cohorts than you can with one Elven Sentinel...

Edited by Kumomoto - 16 Mar 2011 at 15:06
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Attila the Hun View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 15:01
Shhh, See Col0005, this is what happens when you  get in to an arguement with honoredMule, he breaks your arguement down in to nothing and leave you feeling like a twit.
It's just a game. :)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 12:37
Arn't they double the upkeep? That's not quite the same value...
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col0005 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 11:54
? it shouldn't but it seems that
1.elven archers are equaly cheap to produce
2.about the same value for upkeep
3.take the same time to build
Which is all good, however if you take into account that an archer is a far stronger unit then points 1 & 3 give advantage to elves, where is the orc advantage?
 
P.s. my alt is elven and actually larger than my orc account so i'm not just wishing for my orc  army to be superior, i honestly do see it as unbalanced.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2011 at 04:04
I don't get it.  Why should the orc advantage be bigger than the elf advantage?
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