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Smorgasboarding: Pros and Cons

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ajqtrz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ajqtrz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2015 at 02:25
Jane,

When you said: "Publicly accusing an alliance of thieving with little evidence" you obvioiusly did not read the post completely or look at the available evidence.  The post specifically says I was not accusing anybody of thieving.  Read the post.  I merely laid out the evidence I had and told people they could draw their own conclusions.  That you thought the evidence pointed to thieving is the only way you could say I accused anybody of thieving.  Thus the evidence presented was sufficient for you to draw a conclusion I did not draw.  You can't have it both ways.  You can't say the evidence was "little" at the same time you say it was "enough" for a person to draw a particular conclusion (valid or not).

In addition, if the alliance in question thought the evidence so poor, why did they think I had accused them?  I can call you a marshmallow but nobody would take me seriously unless I had a picture of you in a "Stay Puff" bag (LOL)  My point is that the evidence was strong enough that a LOT of people thought it led to the accusation you thought I was making.... and if so, then obviously the evidence was not "little"

I will admit here and now that the evidence was not conclusive.  But it was never presented that way and in the post I said the evidence was not complete AND that I was NOT accusing anybody.  I will also admit that the structure of the presentation was not neutral enough to and tended to lead others to a conclusion that fell short of proof.  I regret that I did not reflect myself enough on the wording and should have either not made the post of taken it to a different place for review.

But even so, whatever a person says in the forum ought to be dealt with in the forum.  I'm quite certain that if I were accused of this I would have done my homework and presented an alternative theory to show that the evidence presented could reach a different conclusion and THEN asked the poster to amend his or her post.  And if I had been presented with that scenario (the alternative explanation did come long after other actions were taken) I would have sheepishly amended my post and admitted my mistakes.

But that is not the procedure some people think to use.  Instead of doing themselves justice and making their case in the forums (and in doing so the weakness of the original argument) they choose display their own apparent belief that they have no good counter argument by using "other means" to "win"the debate.  This approach is nothing more than the same thuggery you experience when you are in a debate in RL and the person with whom you are debating decides they can't win and threatens you.  It is obviously not as serious a threat, but it's the same basic threat.  I would say to anybody who doesn't have the stomach for good debate and the self-discipline to stick to the question and make their case, don't get into the debate. 

There is no excuse for bullying people just because you can't counter their arguments with better arguments.  The force of arms ought not be the final arbiter of good debate for when it is all who speak are threatened.  If you wish to speak you ought to remember that the first step to silencing everybody is to silence the best and the loudest.  

AJ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Brandmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2015 at 01:48
Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

So definitions are not arbitrary things to just throw around and we are not the Cheshire cat who famously said, "A word can mean whatever I want it to mean, nothing more, nothing less."
Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

And, to be precise, you may not consider claiming land in the sandbox is "bullying" but according the definition I've provided in an earlier post, it is.  It uses intimidation, threats and, while I'm not certain it, occasional coercion, to get control of what should be available to all.

Do you ever find your own irony painful, or is intellectual consistency just kinda lost on you?

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

So from the dictionary:  Trash Talk: "insulting or boastful speech intended to demoralize, intimidate, or humiliate someone, especially an opponent in an athletic contest."

I like the Wikipedia definition for Trash-Talk:

Trash-talk is a form of boast or insult commonly heard in competitive situations, (such as sports events and multiplayer video games). It is often used to intimidate the opposition, but can also be used in a humorous spirit. Trash-talk is often characterized by use of hyperbole or figurative language.

Let's see if I can come up with a few examples of you using hyperbole in the context of your philosophical opponents in this multiplayer video game:

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:


Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

I believe that land claims are a form of bullying.

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

But if it would be unfair to allow a large player to intimidate, threaten and coerce a small and new player, why is it okay for a larger alliance (or alliances) to intimidate, threaten and coerce small alliances and individual players?

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

But of course, given the strategic advantage the technique has, it is doubtful any alliance will give up such an advantage even if it means that Illy becomes a sandbox of bullies and the bullied....kind bullies maybe, but bullies nevertheless.

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

It is restricting to some players to be intimidated, threatened and coerced...that is definitely restrictive.

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

You can only make it stick if you are big enough to intimidate, threaten or coerce, OR, you actually put the cities there fast enough and spread out enough to keep other out...the method allowed in the game.

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

Be smart, work hard and make your claim, just don't try to use intimidation, threats and coercion as they are not in the spirit of a fair and honest competition...unless you agree that "might makes right."

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

Intimidation, threats, and coercion should not have a place outside of actual warfare in Illy and then only between alliances and individuals actually willing to go to war....which few are.

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

And this is how the larger alliances seem to think it should be done: make a claim for an area and threaten, intimidate and coerce anybody who is too small to contest it.

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

Land claims are intimidation.  Intimidation is not a friendly gesture.  Nor are threats.  And if a threat is carried out, it's not friendly either.

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

Let's see what that means to the small alliances, to the individuals, to those who do not have the power to force their views upon other through threat, intimidation and coercion...

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

Will the claims lead to more opportunities for individuals and alliances to grow freely and without control, coercion or intimidation?

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

Finally, why does there have to be "tension," with the accompanying threats, intimidation, and coercion for these war liking players to go to war?

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

You don't see anything wrong with intimidation, threats and coercion by large alliances as such behaviors are "the natural extension of the game" but you want to restrict the "abuse" of newbies?

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

So the only advantage of the land claim rule would be to give the larger alliances more power to intimidate, threaten and coerce as they see fit...ever so politely, of course.

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

How nice...a magical kingdom where bullying doesn't exist because, well, there is no intimidation, threats or coercion....or at least it's just part of the "game play."

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

Maybe they are starting to think they are "losing" the debate and out of the same fear that motivates bullies on the playground to double down when confronted.



You characterized the land claim players (whom you very clearly oppose) as bullies who use threats, intimidation, and coercion. You did it at least sixteen different times.

Achievement Unlocked: Dead horse, beaten thrice!

Oh look, I found two more mentions!

Achievement Unlocked: Thrice beaten dead horse, twice beaten thrice!

Given your insulting characterizations of your opponents over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, I'm just going to go ahead and correctly conclude that you've been trash talking.

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

But since terms do have meaning and that meaning is best adjudicated by a dictionary I would suggest that you should produce said evidence or an apology for your understandable mistake.

I just went ahead and took the "evidence" route, hope that's okay.

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

I do agree with Rill.  Let us discuss the relationship between the forum and the "in game" aspect.  If we allow that they are the same thing, as Rikoo seems to think, then there is a price to be paid for saying things others either disagree with or get upset by.  In the end it would seem only those strong enough will be free to express their opinion as the rest may find it just too costly.

Or you could just learn to express public disagreement without the use of insulting hyperbole like your "intimdation, threats, and coercion" trash talk. Over the years I have disagreed strongly with many powerful people on this forum, and nobody has ever really harassed me in the game. Angrim and many others have done the same. If you have been subjected to in-game consequences from posting on this Illyriad forum, perhaps you should consider the methods by which you make (or completely fail to make) your points.
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Jane DarkMagic View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jane DarkMagic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 23:46
Illyriad is a game of diplomacy.  How one acts on the forums and in GC can have consequences in the game.  So avoiding such consequences is a BIG part of being a good player.  It's even more important for an alliance leader or someone who hopes to someday become one.   If you say things publicly and constantly that piss a lot of people off, you are basically sealing your own fate.  Publicly accusing an alliance of thieving with little evidence would be a move that could cause such a severe reaction..  aj wasn't bullied or "smorgasboarded", he just felt in-game consequences directly related to his own actions.  I see no reason why this should upset people!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ajqtrz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 23:39
In reviewing some of the comments I've missed I find this:

"Are you really proposing that you should get to trash talk however you like, and nobody responds within the confines of the video game? That's just silly. An in-game action is far more reasonable than a lot of your trash talking."

From Brandmeister.

My response is two-fold.

1) First, since the word has been applied to my actions, let's see if my actions were or have been "trash-talking."  We can of course call anything we disagree with by the term, but to do so is to ignore the purpose of language, to communicate.  I could call you a 'racist pig' and make it stick so long as you let me define what "racist pig" means....in this case I would just claim I meant it to mean a "nice guy"...but you wouldn't believe me, would you?  So definitions are not arbitrary things to just throw around and we are not the Cheshire cat who famously said, "A word can mean whatever I want it to mean, nothing more, nothing less."  So from the dictionary:  Trash Talk: "insulting or boastful speech intended to demoralize, intimidate, or humiliate someone, especially an opponent in an athletic contest."    Since Brandmeister has decided that some of my comments were "trash talk" do tell me which were of that nature. Which were insulting or boastful statements intended to demoralize, intimidate or humiliate someone? 

2) Second, I've also been accused of slander.  The definition of slander is simple: to knowingly say something that isn't true with the intention of damaging the reputation of another.  The key to understanding it is that the one slandering understands that the evidence of his or her statements does not fully or strongly support the conclusions (meaning that they are jumping to conclusions) and thus the statement may not be true to the point that a reasonable person would not have said it.  Thus, you to slander you must both know what you are saying is not warranted by the evidence (not "proved" but warranted) and you must actually damage the reputation of the other person.  I bring this up because when you say I have engaged in "trash talk" one of the following three things must be true: 1) you have evidence that such is the case and can and will provide it; 2) are mistaken about the term and have miss applied it; or 3) you knew that the statements I've made were not trash-talk but used the term to damage my reputation.  My belief is number 2.  I don't think you would have intentionally used the term if you had understood that what I have done is not "trash talk."  But since terms do have meaning and that meaning is best adjudicated by a dictionary I would suggest that you should produce said evidence or an apology for your understandable mistake.

AJ


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Berde Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 23:13
I do not see the forums as "separate" from "in game". I see it as an extension of GC where one can speak in paragraphs without getting hammered for walls-o-text. More importantly, it has a permanence that GC does not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ajqtrz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 22:32
I do agree with Rill.  Let us discuss the relationship between the forum and the "in game" aspect.  If we allow that they are the same thing, as Rikoo seems to think, then there is a price to be paid for saying things others either disagree with or get upset by.  In the end it would seem only those strong enough will be free to express their opinion as the rest may find it just too costly. 

The answer seems to me to be what do you want the forum to be?  If it's an extension of the game then the large alliances should tell us all what we can or cannot say right up front. For me it's not fun to be attacked for what I've said in the forums and it would be just better off if those who want to dominate the forums as well as the game would publish a nice list of my opinions for me. 

On the other hand, if the forums are a place where all players should be allowed to express their opinions (within the bounds of civility I would think), then there must be a general consensus that letting forum disagreements spill over into GC and game action is not healthy for the gaming community.  And if we were to have that I think the forums could be a lot of fun.

So the question revolves on to what purpose the forums are to be put.  As an extension of alliance power and control, or as a free wheeling (more or less) and free discussion of important topics where all members can speak up without fear of in game reprisal.

AJ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stukahh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2015 at 19:24
anybody watching the hockey playoffs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2015 at 17:29
If you believe the thread is pointless, there is not a need for you to post here.  I think the topic of whether and under what circumstances it is a good idea to attempt to prevent a person from expressing ideas in chat or on the forum through using game mechanics such as diplos, attackes etc., is an interesting and worthwhile topic.

Therefore, I'd appreciate if people returned to the topic at hand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gragnog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2015 at 15:10
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Originally posted by Thorgrim Thorgrim wrote:

How about Smorgasbored? It is a state of mind.

Wink

Not familiar with it.  Is it relevant to this thread?  If so, please define.


Seeing as this is a pointless thread any post would be relevant to it thus making a pointfull thread with no relevance. Beer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2015 at 23:34
Originally posted by Thorgrim Thorgrim wrote:

How about Smorgasbored? It is a state of mind.

Wink

Not familiar with it.  Is it relevant to this thread?  If so, please define.
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