Play Now Login Create Account
illyriad
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Sindicate v. Assorted Elgea based Alliances
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Sindicate v. Assorted Elgea based Alliances

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 13>
Author
Tensmoor View Drop Down
Postmaster General
Postmaster General
Avatar

Joined: 07 Apr 2015
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 1579
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tensmoor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2018 at 17:59
Originally posted by Ten Kulch Ten Kulch wrote:

Worth noting: the /news and /news24 commands in GC will give you a log of all system siege notices for that day and 24 hour window, respectively. That command also gives you the name of the attacking city, per the siege notice (which is missing on the siege stats page). With the towns and map files, you should be able to identify which sieges were removed with the city staying in place. You can also see which cities were removed, although it will be unclear which ones were destroyed or used exodus, since both results will cause a 1 city drop on that player's town list and growth chart. It's probably sufficient just to note the missing city and let the participants clarify.
Those two commands could solve a few problems. I'll have to wait an hour to see. You got any other 'secret' commands hidden away Tongue

Originally posted by Tink XX Tink XX wrote:

Tens, depending on what sort of server you have and what sort of code you want to produce I could help you with the access code, if you post a repository of your server on Github. I can manage most languages (Python, Ruby, JS, Go, C#, etc.), just don't want to do something like Perl. I log in often enough to get some of the siege stats snapshots reliably. Perhaps it could be as simple as have a solid system of aggregating the data and then, instead of crafting a user interface, just return a simple data dump in form of a page of xml or a csv file at one API endpoint. CSV would work great, then it can be inserted into Google Docs and displayed to the public. Or even better yet, piped into a Google sheet directly.
I'm on a shared server that's pretty crippled in what it can do and mostly I work in PHP as that's the only language I can consistently get to work on it (bargain basement hosting has its drawbacks). With the two GC commands that Ten Kulch mentioned I may be able to come up with something that makes it a lot easier. Getting the database to do a dump of the data in CSV format is fairly simple and I could schedule that as a CRON job with the results being available to everyone to download - more thinking required.
Back to Top
Tensmoor View Drop Down
Postmaster General
Postmaster General
Avatar

Joined: 07 Apr 2015
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 1579
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tensmoor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2018 at 17:46
Originally posted by Tink XX Tink XX wrote:

Another idea:
you can use daily snapshots of attack and defense stats to identify key players and make weekly graphs combining the info from each day. If you look at that info day to day it's too atomic to get the picture, but over the course of time it adds up to something, especially if you have side by side comparisons of all the participating alliances.


I'm working on a USB based system that allows the user to compile data from the player, town and alliance data files over a period of time (I have the files going back to April 2016). The system will work by showing changes in the data so in theory you could rebuild a history of a player (name, alliance including rank, town details such as locations and populations) for as long as you have the data for. This is probably already available to those alliances with members who can do the coding but I'm trying to come up with something that can be used by everyone regardless of their coding ability. I don't have a server powerful enough to do it when multiple people will be submitting queries at the same time so came up with a system based on a USB stick with an Apache Web Server on it that the user simply plugs into their computer and away they go - no strain on my server.
Back to Top
Ten Kulch View Drop Down
Postmaster
Postmaster


Joined: 20 Jan 2017
Location: Fellandire
Status: Offline
Points: 678
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ten Kulch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2018 at 17:37
Worth noting: the /news and /news24 commands in GC will give you a log of all system siege notices for that day and 24 hour window, respectively. That command also gives you the name of the attacking city, per the siege notice (which is missing on the siege stats page). With the towns and map files, you should be able to identify which sieges were removed with the city staying in place. You can also see which cities were removed, although it will be unclear which ones were destroyed or used exodus, since both results will cause a 1 city drop on that player's town list and growth chart. It's probably sufficient just to note the missing city and let the participants clarify.
Check out my blog, Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.
Back to Top
Tink XX View Drop Down
Forum Warrior
Forum Warrior
Avatar

Joined: 16 Dec 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 201
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tink XX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2018 at 17:35
Tens, depending on what sort of server you have and what sort of code you want to produce I could help you with the access code, if you post a repository of your server on Github. I can manage most languages (Python, Ruby, JS, Go, C#, etc.), just don't want to do something like Perl. I log in often enough to get some of the siege stats snapshots reliably. Perhaps it could be as simple as have a solid system of aggregating the data and then, instead of crafting a user interface, just return a simple data dump in form of a page of xml or a csv file at one API endpoint. CSV would work great, then it can be inserted into Google Docs and displayed to the public. Or even better yet, piped into a Google sheet directly.
Back to Top
Tensmoor View Drop Down
Postmaster General
Postmaster General
Avatar

Joined: 07 Apr 2015
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 1579
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tensmoor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2018 at 17:19
Gathering the data from any of the Illy pages is fairly straightforward - a lot of the data gathered by DurcTools comes from JS scripts that do exactly that. If I add a simple button to the page that triggers the collection of the data then all the requirements of the rules for third-party tools are met.

Rather than storing the data on the users device as I do with DurcTools I think this is a situation where a centralised database on my server would be a better solution. I can produce a page where anyone can interrogate the database to get a history of sieges by such things as participating alliances, dates, regions etc.

The code to access the data will be much harder to produce than the code to capture/submit the data in the first place but I'll start looking at it over the next few days and rather than make this a part of DurcTools I'll create it as a completely standalone user-script/tool that does nothing else but gather and submit the data. If nobody submits it then they have no justification for argument.

Tens
Back to Top
Tink XX View Drop Down
Forum Warrior
Forum Warrior
Avatar

Joined: 16 Dec 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 201
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tink XX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2018 at 16:23
Another idea:
you can use daily snapshots of attack and defense stats to identify key players and make weekly graphs combining the info from each day. If you look at that info day to day it's too atomic to get the picture, but over the course of time it adds up to something, especially if you have side by side comparisons of all the participating alliances.
Back to Top
Tink XX View Drop Down
Forum Warrior
Forum Warrior
Avatar

Joined: 16 Dec 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 201
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tink XX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2018 at 16:08
Tensmoor, that's true - trust me, I appreciate the challenges of this kind of data gathering. In the best of all worlds, the devs would provide us with a siege data API that would provide a daily snapshot of all sieges, including the ones broken within the past 24 hours, and show info such as how long the siege is lasting, how many total troops are lost (perhaps broken out by defenders/attackers), and whether it concluded in a raze, capture, or was broken.

Short of that and collecting data from users, here's what might work. If you log in and look at the siege stats page once a day it's not very accurate since many sieges get broken in under 24 hours so you might miss quite a few. If you get the snapshot 2x a day, that increases the accuracy a lot. Most sieges last at least 6 hours, and if it's under 6-10 hours it was a worthless siege to begin with, so that puts the floor on how many snapshots you need.

You can pretty easily scrape the siege page with JS (and I believe that's not very different from Illytools in terms of fair use since you're still logged into the game) and put it in a table immediately. Throw in a bit of math and you get approximate siege duration. We're talking about maybe 5-10 sieges per week total. If you put the results of your data gathering in a forum thread, encourage players volunteer raze reports or final break reports. If no raze report was provided, assume the siege was broken.


Edited by Tink XX - 31 Jan 2018 at 16:11
Back to Top
Ten Kulch View Drop Down
Postmaster
Postmaster


Joined: 20 Jan 2017
Location: Fellandire
Status: Offline
Points: 678
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ten Kulch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2018 at 13:59
While journalism produces a higher quality of information than statistics, I think that's asking a lot of Mafro. System stats are reliable and available daily. My advice would be to give equal discussion to both population/players/towns and attack/defense stats. Participants can provide commentary if they wish.
Check out my blog, Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.
Back to Top
Tensmoor View Drop Down
Postmaster General
Postmaster General
Avatar

Joined: 07 Apr 2015
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 1579
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tensmoor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2018 at 07:46
Originally posted by Tink XX Tink XX wrote:


So true! I wish Mafro actually would focus his efforts on collecting that kind of statistics instead of the population stats that are 90% unrelated to anything interesting that's going on. Mafro, the population statistics is boring because it gives you no insight into Illy wars. You could either solicit some battle reports or siege outcome reports from us and our opponents, or at least peruse the siege page of the herald like Mr. Damage suggested. People would actually want to read such reports.


I've no skill or ability in analysis but I've been looking at possible ways of gathering information about sieges and there are a couple of problems:
  1. 'No automation' rule. This means that any data collected has to be as a result of a user action.
  2. Difficulty in trying to find when a siege ends.
The second problem can be partly overcome by checking the siege page to see if a particular siege is no longer shown however there is no unique identifier for each siege so it is a bit hit and miss. The best that can be achieved is using a combination of target town, attacking player and start date to identify a particular siege. This doesn't allow for multiple sieges by one player (using different towns) on a single target arriving in the same minute. Those would be identified as the same siege meaning that it isn't possible to tell which has ended and which are still ongoing.

The first problem doesn't apply to gathering info from the siege page as the user has to navigate to it - that is counted as a user action. However gathering info from the system posts in GC (which are more complete) does not need any user action so could be taken as automated and therefore not allowed.

Gathering info from both sources does need an account logged in so unlike extracting data from the players datafile cannot be done without user participation to some degree. I can produce user-scripts capable of gathering the available info from both sources (I've got drafts of both already) however my time in Illy is (currently) very limited due to health issues. Previous attempts to get users to submit data to a central server (gathering info about faction encampments and also NPC sightings) were met with a almost complete refusal so any attempt to do the same for this has a very low chance of success.

Getting info direct from the participants is in my opinion flawed - it relies on the complete honesty of all parties concerned and while I'm not implying anything nasty by anyone a common practice in both digital and RL hostilities is the restriction of possibly sensitive information. That could skew the results of any analysis.

If anyone has ideas on how these problems can be overcome please either post them here or send me a FORUM private message. I make no promises but as always I will listen and consider.

Tens
Back to Top
Tink XX View Drop Down
Forum Warrior
Forum Warrior
Avatar

Joined: 16 Dec 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 201
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tink XX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2018 at 06:42
Originally posted by Mr Damage Mr Damage wrote:

This has probably been said several times before but all that counts is who’s winning the battles. As a distant observer and from looking at the siege page over time it seems very one sided. The Sindicate is doing the majority of the sieging so I summise that they are winning the attack at the moment. They also seem to break most sieges landed on them so are in front on defence also.


So true! I wish Mafro actually would focus his efforts on collecting that kind of statistics instead of the population stats that are 90% unrelated to anything interesting that's going on. Mafro, the population statistics is boring because it gives you no insight into Illy wars. You could either solicit some battle reports or siege outcome reports from us and our opponents, or at least peruse the siege page of the herald like Mr. Damage suggested. People would actually want to read such reports.

Originally posted by Mr Damage Mr Damage wrote:

Boredom may in the end be their cryptonite.


Well... looks like so far Sindicate has been pretty good at riling up the rest of the server to provide us a steady supply of enemies and entertainment Wink No telling if the trend will hold but we'll keep trying to stir things up!

P.S. as far as entertainment goes, last night's siege on Hobblez was a hoot. Someone give Storm a Beer


Edited by Tink XX - 31 Jan 2018 at 06:42
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 13>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.