Saving Illyriad For All

Panacea, I know you're not accusing anyone of being a nazi, or making a comparison to ww2. My point was that the term nazi is considered as negative by (almost) everyone. If you had replaced it with retards, assholes or any other bad name it would have had the same result. You turned to namecalling from your anonymity. And saying it's a quote is no excuse. You could easily let the namecalling out of it, and the point of the quote would have been the same.

Edited by Corwin - 23 Oct 2017 at 10:35

... do either of you understand the meaning behind that quote, beyond the specific scope of WWII? Or do you just see the word Nazi and assume someone is being compared to or accused of being one without taking any time or effort to understand whats being presented in its fullness?

It talks about the basic human tendency to allow things individuals consider to be injustices to continue unchallenged as long as the threat itself is not directly effecting them personally.

To continue to try and twist this into me accusing, or even comparing, players here to Nazis is ridiculous. The topic I was addressing is people willing to see perceived injustices and allow them to continue unchecked only until the problem is in their face. The comparisons, or relativity, to this forum post and the quote presented was with the speaker of the quote, not the adversaries he was facing.

So, while I'm sure its more fun to keep trolling the subject and trying to gear it back to some sort of Nazi debate, its not, and never was.

And Corwin - youre right, that wiki page does list it first. Had I gotten the quote from that page, i'd have been more than fine using it devoid of the word Nazi. But I got it from the wiki page about the author of the quote ( https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller ), which cites the version I used first as the original version, translated from German. There is also a few other versions listed below, including the one you mentioned. Youre probably right though, the version you mentioned would have been better fit for this audience. But, in either case, none of the versions of that quote support the argument that my words were accusing or comparing anyone here to Nazis.

TenK - No, I didnt use "anonymity to drop a real-life genocide reference in a video game dispute". Thats just what youre are accusing me of. I quoted a man speaking of humanities tendencies to ignore their values when a threat isnt directly effecting them. That the threat being referenced in his quote happened to be Nazis was only secondary, happenstance, and could be switched with any other perceived evil/villain/adversary and still held the same meaning. But you are choosing to view it otherwise, diligent in ignoring context, rationality, or explanation.


All in all, I probably should have excluded the quote completely though. Sadly, not because its not a relevant comparison, and not because its some sort of accusation towards players here being Nazis - I should have omitted it because I should well know by now that the vast majority of people arent capable of reading something with intentions to understand it. Instead you'd rather pick a single word out of multiple paragraphs, add your own wild interpretations unsupported by the text, and then use your new found nonsense to wage a verbal war based on absurdity until any trace of the original meaning is lost to obscurity.

Guys and girls you need a rest.
Few weeks should be enough.

As much as you are trying to hide the facts, Illyriad is a credible copy of the real world.
Get used to it, and restrain the ego, this violence may look more beautiful.
Even if you add some flowers to your spears and swords, history may compare you to some great warriors.

Panacea, you used anonymity to drop a real-life genocide reference in a video game dispute. Of course it offends me. It probably offended many reasonable people reading this thread. I could easily ask the reverse--if you aren't afraid to own that statement, why maintain anonymity?

My description of Heroes was hyperbole. As long as our adversaries insist on portraying us as villains, and themselves as the opposing heroes, I think it's reasonable to employ the same propaganda tactics. Both sides have legitimate complaints, and both have used some disagreeable tactics. I would be quite content if people admitted that this sandbox includes elements of conflict, particularly for the apex alliances, and just got on with it.

haha, oh my...

Well TenK, firstly, I'm only using this account because I lost the password to my other one, and apparently my main email is linked to this name that was created when i was first researching the game. It didnt really occur to me when writing this that people wouldn't know who i was, but it retrospect it should have. Though, your reply makes me wonder why anonymity offends you so much. Nothing I said here requires a verified source of origin to be true, so why does it bother you? Regardless, for the time i'll just move past your insults at me and address the actual point of my initial reply.


Youre assuming far too much. Sure, the initial post may have been directed towards the SINdicate, but my reply was not. In fact, I tried to take efforts to leave my reply generic enough so as not to directly implicate any one person or group, because - for the point I was trying to make - it's irrelevant. The sarcastic side of me would think that you took it as a shot at you because it described SINdicate tactics well. Though, the more practical side says you likely took it as a shot at you because you are just getting used to so many people trying to make you and your group out to be the evil bad guys and such. It seems to me that the part about "propaganda, fear-mongering, and brute force to achieve their goals, disrupting the lives of anyone around them at whim" fits with what SINdicate has accused the old Elgean alliances of, being one of the rallying cries used to recruit members to SINdicate to fight the evils that plague the game. At the same time, it also describes how many of those Elgeans feel about the SINdicate or the use of land claims. But, despite that, you chose to view it as an attack on you. I find that interesting.

So, for you, and for anyone else who cant see past their own perspective: being a good guy/Hero and being a bad guy/evil villian are 100% relative ideals. To vCrow, SIN was/is the bad guy. To SIN, vCrow was/is the bad guy. And so forth. People rarely see themselves as evil or wrong in their endeavors, so its natural for every side of a conflict to see themselves as the righteous Heroes. MY POINT was only that if these things bother someone so much, and one views it as wrong, injustice, or bad for the game, then that someone will likely have to take it farther than words to change things, much in the same way SINdicate has done. In a way, my reply was a complement for your group for doing exactly what I hope others will do - take action against something that bothers you.

As for me: no, it doesnt bother me enough to try and change it. I do not feel with any conviction of a 'right way' for this game to progress, and as such see no point in fighting half-heartedly. I can see the viewpoint of both sides (whether these current conflicts or ones of the past), each with their own merits and shortfalls. The extremes of any single play style seem damning to the game, though I am genuinely unsure which would end up worse in the long run if that style were to prevail. But that doesnt mean I wont chime in every now and then in hopes of motivating those who are unhappy to make efforts to change things.

Lastly, as far as the quote... Sure, the quote itself directly involves Nazis, but the concept being expressed spans far beyond that. I considered changing the wording to better reflect the game world ("When the Underworlders came for the Elves, I remained silent; I was not an Elf."), but even though it would still present the same overall meaning, it seemed a little insulting to the original quote, so I left it be hoping readers could look beyond the specifics of the event it described and see beyond to the greater message in which it describes. To assume I'm calling anyone here Nazis over gamestyle is absurd.


In the end though, if even after my explanation here you still choose to view it as some sort of slight against you or your group in specific, then there's not much I can do to change that. But that's ok, really. You are already doing what my post is meant to encourage others to do: Fight for what you believe in. Be a Hero. Be someone elses Villain.