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Kumomoto
Postmaster General
Joined: 19 Oct 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 2224
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Posted: 13 Oct 2012 at 18:09 |
LordOfTheSwamp wrote:
Going round in circles.
Dear Mr Dragon, please see post a bazillion pages back about having a collection of knives in real life, but not saying "I have knives, therefore the purpose of life is to / it is fine to stab people". Please see reply to KP where he said "but the game gives you catapults" where I pointed out that as an individual you are free to decide what you do with them. Please... oh, whatever, this is a waste of my life.
Bottom line, you want to attack people. What we are about to find out here in Illy is whether the players intend to stop you. | Your pathetic attempts to couch this as an "evil aggressive H? Tyrant" versus the innocent proletariat of noble "Everyman" Players is transparent. Illy players are not stupid. By repeating it enough, you won't get everyone to believe it. We are very sorry that one of your smaller alliances decided to arrogantly pick a fight with one of our friends in an inconvenient time for you, but there are two very large organizations involved here. There are NO newbies involved and to call us "bullies" for going to war with someone who vastly outnumbers us is ridiculously misguided.
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Rill
Postmaster General
Player Council - Geographer
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 6903
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Posted: 13 Oct 2012 at 18:23 |
You don't have to be evil to be wrong. Wrong can include having made an error in judgment or a mistake. And I'm sorry, but I think the escalation of this matter rather than making efforts (or responding in good faith to current efforts) to deal with this situation is a mistake. Others may of course feel that this is not a mistake and this war is the best thing ever.
I primarily think it was a mistake because there were many more mature and diplomatic ways to deal with the situation, and I know that H? prides itself on maturity and speaks about this and about mutual respect on its profile.
By the way, if I am ill informed and there are parties from H? and RHY speaking with the alliances on which they have declared war about their request for peace, I would love to hear more about that.
Edited by Rill - 13 Oct 2012 at 18:25
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dunnoob
Postmaster
Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Location: Elijal
Status: Offline
Points: 800
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Posted: 13 Oct 2012 at 18:57 |
LordOfTheSwamp wrote:
What I'm saying is "blatant aggression is bad for everyone, and morality and justice are important parts of Illy." You don't have to trust everyone in every alliance in Consone to stand by that. |
Day for day Consone grows by more players, more towns, more land, more troops, and more resources than the other two powerblocks in Mogul's map.
It's a WWI setup from my POV, with a Keppen trove mine starring archduke Franz Ferdinand.
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belargyle
Forum Warrior
Joined: 17 Jun 2010
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 401
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Posted: 13 Oct 2012 at 18:59 |
LordOfTheSwamp wrote:
Bottom line, you want to attack people. What we are about to find out here in Illy is whether the players intend to stop you. |
LotS..
Bottom line.. if he or we (the Dwarven Lords) wanted to attack people, they would be much more afraid of us than than the current 'somewhat annoyed' at our Land policy.
Stop us? We (The Dwarven Lords) haven't even entered into this yet, but if we do - I thought Consone was big enough to take care of itself? Why does the community need to get involved? Isn't the exact same thing that you harping on H? about in this situation??
Edited by belargyle - 13 Oct 2012 at 19:00
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KillerPoodle
Postmaster General
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 1853
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Posted: 13 Oct 2012 at 19:05 |
Rill wrote:
You don't have to be evil to be wrong. Wrong can include having made an error in judgment or a mistake. And I'm sorry, but I think the escalation of this matter rather than making efforts (or responding in good faith to current efforts) to deal with this situation is a mistake. Others may of course feel that this is not a mistake and this war is the best thing ever.
I primarily think it was a mistake because there were many more mature and diplomatic ways to deal with the situation, and I know that H? prides itself on maturity and speaks about this and about mutual respect on its profile.
By the way, if I am ill informed and there are parties from H? and RHY speaking with the alliances on which they have declared war about their request for peace, I would love to hear more about that.
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Why do you associate maturity with peace in a game designed for war?
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"This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM
"a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill
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Rill
Postmaster General
Player Council - Geographer
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 6903
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Posted: 13 Oct 2012 at 19:25 |
I don't necessarily associate maturity with peace, I associate maturity with reasoned discussions. That is what I see to have been lacking. Although of course reasoned discussions often lead to peace. As does respect.
Making war can of course be a reasoned and mature decision. Or it can be one driven by suspicion or blind ambition, neither of which I associate with maturity. But maybe I'm confusing maturity with wisdom.
Darn, you have me there.
Edited by Rill - 13 Oct 2012 at 19:27
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Grego
Postmaster
Joined: 09 May 2010
Location: Klek
Status: Offline
Points: 729
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Posted: 13 Oct 2012 at 19:28 |
dunnoob wrote:
LordOfTheSwamp wrote:
What I'm saying is "blatant aggression is bad for everyone, and morality and justice are important parts of Illy." You don't have to trust everyone in every alliance in Consone to stand by that. | Day for day Consone grows by more players, more towns, more land, more troops, and more resources than the other two powerblocks in Mogul's map.
It's a WWI setup from my POV, with a Keppen trove mine starring archduke Franz Ferdinand. |
This is why this war was inevitable, from the day Consone was announced in public.
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KillerPoodle
Postmaster General
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 1853
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Posted: 13 Oct 2012 at 21:21 |
Rill wrote:
I don't necessarily associate maturity with peace, I associate maturity with reasoned discussions. That is what I see to have been lacking. Although of course reasoned discussions often lead to peace. As does respect.
Making war can of course be a reasoned and mature decision. Or it can be one driven by suspicion or blind ambition, neither of which I associate with maturity. But maybe I'm confusing maturity with wisdom.
Darn, you have me there. |
So if I tell you there is a reasoned decision - then everything with this war is ok?
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"This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM
"a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill
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Rill
Postmaster General
Player Council - Geographer
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 6903
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Posted: 13 Oct 2012 at 21:32 |
KillerPoodle wrote:
Rill wrote:
I don't necessarily associate maturity with peace, I associate maturity with reasoned discussions. That is what I see to have been lacking. Although of course reasoned discussions often lead to peace. As does respect.
Making war can of course be a reasoned and mature decision. Or it can be one driven by suspicion or blind ambition, neither of which I associate with maturity. But maybe I'm confusing maturity with wisdom.
Darn, you have me there. |
So if I tell you there is a reasoned decision - then everything with this war is ok?
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Not necessarily. Even people who attempt to use reasoning skills may make mistakes. Which was pretty much my original point. However you came to your conclusions, I think this war will be demonstrated to have been a mistake and that you will be disappointed in the results.
My observation is that Harmless? enjoys using military force in a strategic way. I think your actions in this war will serve to stifle the beginnings of healthy PvP that had been growing up around rare resources, because more people will conclude that competing militarily for resources is not worth the risk. While you may have a war that you enjoy, I think in the long term that having these major upheavals tends to discourage people from experimenting with responsible, limited PvP -- a type of PvP I think many people find fun.
This war may (or may not) accomplish your goal of reasserting H?s dominance on the server -- and let's not fool ourselves, that is your primary goal. But the unintended consequences seem to make it more likely that a substantial portion of the player base will become more risk averse and less adventuresome -- therefore less likely to engage in the game in ways that you and they will find interesting.
I am not going to be a doomsayer and say that this war will cause everything to go to hell in a handbasket, blah, blah blah. But I am going to say that as with the Valar war you are likely to be dissatisfied with the long-term results.
That is of course only my opinion, and I may be wrong just as you may be wrong. People can evaluate our reasoning (or at least they can evaluate mine, I don't think H? has shared its actual reasoning) and observe the results.
I think this war is a mistake both because it will be unfun for a lot of people and because ultimately it will not bring you the results you desire -- so a win for neither side.
I may be wrong in that. We will see.
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Jane DarkMagic
Postmaster
Joined: 10 Sep 2011
Location: Tennessee
Status: Offline
Points: 554
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Posted: 13 Oct 2012 at 21:39 |
There is an aggressor in every war. One side that wants something(whether something tangible like gold and land or something more ephemeral like reputation or to make some type of statement) and is willing to use troops to obtain it.
In this conflict, RHY/H? is the aggressor. It doesn't make them bad or evil or dumb (they are definitely not dumb... The turning of Consone to Consomme to Soup is fairly brilliant) nor does it make them bullies though the aggressor by definition is the one who picked the fight.
The important question that keeps being missed is- What does RHY/H? want?
Edited by Jane DarkMagic - 13 Oct 2012 at 21:40
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