Play Now Login Create Account
illyriad
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Rhyagelle Responds To Absaroke Aggression
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedRhyagelle Responds To Absaroke Aggression

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 65>
Author
 Rating: Topic Rating: 1 Votes, Average 1.00  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Salararius View Drop Down
Postmaster
Postmaster
Avatar

Joined: 26 Sep 2011
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 519
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2012 at 05:31
Originally posted by Sir Bradly Sir Bradly wrote:

After reviewing the entire forum post and 5 addendums provided, one thing is abundantly clear.   Absa's response was dripping with arrogance rather than diplomacy.  Addendum 4 and 5 are reasons enough to declare war in my opinion.  

I respect Rhyagelle and its members for standing up to Absa and engaging in military action.  Lets see if Absa can fight their own battles, or do they need to run to Consone...

Good Luck!
Run to Consone?  Absa is part of Consone.  How do you "run to" something you are part of?  Do you "run to NC" or is that the reason we are all part of alliances and confederations?  If I pick a fight with "Oxford", will it run to "Saxon" (both Sir Bradly's cities) or will it "fight it's own battles"?  Rhyaglle chose a conflict with SkB which is in confederation with Absa which is part of Consone.  That is clear and above board.  Nothing hidden there, no "running" involved.  Rhyaglle has escalated a "resource war" into a "city war".  Fights over mines are a re-occurring part of the game.  Absa actions were at the behest of a smaller confederated alliance that Rhyaglle holds blameless.  If the smaller alliance is blameless for requesting military assistance then why am I (as a member of Absa) to blame?  It was not a random attack by all of Absa but Rhyaglle's response has been random and directed at any member of Absa within reach.  Absa struck to remove Rhyaglle forces from one location.  That is a clear, concise and limited goal.  What is Rhyaglle's goal if not the elimination of every Absa member in reach?  Rhyaglle should expect Consone to fight.  As far as Rhyaglle has acknowledged, they didn't even deign to contact Consone.  If Rhyaglle does not expect Consone to fight, then so too should others.  If no one expects Consone to fight, then Consone is a joke and we should be laughing and not talking about it.

Can you say the same for Rhyaglle?  Have any new members joined specifically to be part of this fight?  Is Rhyaglle "hiding" behind these new members?  Is anyone "lurking" behind Rhyaglle?  Which side is above board here and where are people running, and lurking, and skulking?

I would say that Rhyaglle is "running" to the forums.  That would be a proper characterization.  They are trying to make it sound most unfair if Consone fights as Consone has publicly pledged to fight.  Why would Rhyaglle choose (they are attacking numerous Absa cities, not simply the two members that supported SkB) a fight with a member of Consone if Rhyaglle doesn't want to fight Consone?  Can I pick a fight with just Oxford and then say Oxford is running to your other cities when they strike back?  Seriously, I think that's just silly and I think people should laugh at me if I were to seriously post it here.  I think these characterizations are silly too.  The only extent which these characterizations are not silly is if they influence Consone not to respond.  In that case, well, they worked and Consone is silly and I think everyone will laugh at Consone.

Back to Top
Salararius View Drop Down
Postmaster
Postmaster
Avatar

Joined: 26 Sep 2011
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 519
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2012 at 05:42
I'm not responding for Absa, just asking people to consider the following thoughts.

Originally posted by RHY Press Office RHY Press Office wrote:

OCTOBER 10, 2012 -- Felagund -- Today, the Rhyagelle Alliance (RHY) took decisive military action to respond to a series of unprovoked aggressive attacks by Absaroke (ABSA) in late September. RHY's decision was carefully considered only after reasonable terms (30, then 70 million gold for RHY losses incurred in an avoidable battle) offered by our diplomatic contingent were patently ignored. ...
 
...
 
In short, this situation is not about a mining issue with SkB, we have had no military exchanges with SkB in the wake of the events that precipitated our response thus far, we are not planning on pursuing military action against SkB over the mining claim in the future, and we are not responding militarily to SkB at this time.

"at the behest of SkB players. SkB members had requisitioned ABSA confederated to eliminate our player's forces"  This RHY quote clearly acknowledges that SkB requested Absa military aid and contextually it's clear that this is a mining issue.  From my limited knowledge this wasn't the only "mining issue" between RHY and SkB (or RHY and Absa).  If RHY would kindly post every "mining" issue RHY had with SkB then this simple "mining issue" could be viewed in context.  Another point of context would be the location of this simple mining issue.  How can we discuss a war without discussing the pattern of incidents that started the war?  Who here thinks wars start sans a pattern?

How can Absa actions have nothing to do with a mining issue if SkB requested assistance with a mining issue and Absa's response was isolated to the location of the mining issue?  If this is not about a mining issue, then it's about the loss of troops.  How can it be about a loss of troops when RHY acknowledges "our player re-took his position on the rare resource mine that Messer attacked" that RHY chose to send troops to the square specifically to engage in battle?  The most simple reason for RHY to do that is because of a mining issue.  I think we're back to the fact that this isn't about a mining issue because RHY seems to be looking for it to be about something else.  That pretty much makes it not about a mining issue so what is the bigger pattern?  I think this is about RHY's "right" to put troops wherever they like.  How does everyone feel about that "right"?

Originally posted by RHY Press Office RHY Press Office wrote:

The RHY/ABSA conflict began with a dispute ... In this case, an RHY player successfully secured two rare mineral mines that Jefke (SkB) took exception to. After deliberations, our player agreed to a compromise and agreed to concede one of the two mines to Jefke in order to bring the matter to an agreeable solution. Jefke appeared to be satisfied with the compromise, and our player made it very clear that his occupation at the remaining mine would be temporary.
No mention is made if Jefke agreed to the compromise or if the RHY player just agreed with himself?  How did Jefke "appear" to be satisfied? Where is that IGM?  This paragraph appears to describe a declaration.  If the declarer is much bigger and the second party subsequently asks for help dealing with the declarer then that's not an agreement and Jefke isn't satisfied.  Can RHY really feel otherwise at this juncture?  But seriously, if we knew the location in question we could all decide for ourselves if we would be "satisfied".

Originally posted by RHY Press Office RHY Press Office wrote:

To this point, no fighting had commenced between RHY and SkB members.
No fighting had commenced to this point because SkB wasn't strong enough to fight RHY.  If they had, then you could simply swap SkB for Absa in the original RHY post.  That's hardly a point...
 
Originally posted by RHY Press Office RHY Press Office wrote:

It was at the end of this issue with SkB that Messer (Absa) attacked our player's position with troops ostensibly at the behest of SkB players. SkB members had requisitioned ABSA confederated to eliminate our player's forces deliberately. It is clear to RHY that SkB leadership was complicit in the knowledge of this attack, which was tacitly acknowledged by Messer himself in this IGM:  
SkB does not "appear" satisfied at this point.  Maybe RHY erred and SkB was never happy?  So, does that give Absa any reason for involvement?

Originally posted by RHY Press Office RHY Press Office wrote:

In the course of this exchange, our player re-took his position on the rare resource mine that Messer attacked. Days later, our players' forces were wiped out again -- this time by a different ABSA player, Hugie. In this attack, thousands of RHY troops were lost.
Post all the battle reports so people can see how many troops each side lost and put that in relation to the reasonable diplomatic demands made.  Again, post the location of the dispute and post all the reasonable concessions RHY made to SkB leading up to this situation.  Vague allusions to concessions and diplomacy are no substitute for facts if you want to post here.
 
Originally posted by RHY Press Office RHY Press Office wrote:

Once again, Indeva sought to reach a diplomatic conclusion to the escalating situation:
Demanding 30 million (then 70 million) gold is not seeking a diplomatic conclusion.
 
Originally posted by RHY Press Office RHY Press Office wrote:

RHY feels that there is casus belli for its response to ABSA. Two separate ABSA members attacked and destroyed thousands of RHY troops for no apparent reason
Originally posted by RHY Press Office RHY Press Office wrote:

It is clear to RHY that SkB leadership was complicit in the knowledge of this attack,
Originally posted by RHY Press Office RHY Press Office wrote:

at the behest of SkB players. SkB members had requisitioned ABSA confederated to eliminate our player's forces
 Are these not reasons?  How can something RHY posts not be "apparent" to RHY?  How can it be in bold that there is no apparent reason for the attacks when the apparent reasons are in the post?

Originally posted by RHY Press Office RHY Press Office wrote:

We strongly encourage Consone to denounce ABSA's behavior and expel it from their coalition. 
Most certainly Consone should carefully consider actions by any member with regard to war.  For at least one Consone members, the point of Consone is to protect against the aggression of the strong, with the numbers of the less strong...
 
Originally posted by RHY Press Office RHY Press Office wrote:

Copies of combat reports and IGMs Diplomatic enquiries may be made directly to Jejune or Indeva State.
I'm guessing the press office just plain gave up at this point as the sentence makes no sense?

*inquiries


***mod edit to remove links to private messages***



Edited by GM Luna - 12 Oct 2012 at 04:07
Back to Top
dunnoob View Drop Down
Postmaster
Postmaster
Avatar

Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Location: Elijal
Status: Offline
Points: 800
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2012 at 05:59
Originally posted by Ander Ander wrote:

 RHY has a 24 square policy around their own cities, as you can see in their public forum - http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Forums/453/-2/4272
Just in case, that's apparently not a radius as in the infamous 10 squares for the exodus and teleport game rules.   It's just the cheapest sov constellation for a total of 20 structures + 4 squares in distance (2|2) = 2.8284...   Or IOW, all 24 squares in a distance below 3.
Back to Top
Darmon View Drop Down
Forum Warrior
Forum Warrior


Joined: 15 Aug 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 315
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2012 at 06:27
Originally posted by RHY Press Office RHY Press Office wrote:

Jefke appeared to be satisfied with the compromise, and our player made it very clear that his occupation at the remaining mine would be temporary. 
...
In the course of this exchange, our player re-took his position on the rare resource mine that Messer attacked.

Um...what?  Is that contradictory, or am I just super tired?  (Maybe the linked items are more illuminating, but I'll save those for when I wake up, assuming they're still there...)
Back to Top
Rill View Drop Down
Postmaster General
Postmaster General
Avatar
Player Council - Geographer

Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 6903
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2012 at 06:37
Originally posted by Darmon Darmon wrote:

Originally posted by RHY Press Office RHY Press Office wrote:

Jefke appeared to be satisfied with the compromise, and our player made it very clear that his occupation at the remaining mine would be temporary. 
...
In the course of this exchange, our player re-took his position on the rare resource mine that Messer attacked.

Um...what?  Is that contradictory, or am I just super tired?  (Maybe the linked items are more illuminating, but I'll save those for when I wake up, assuming they're still there...)

I think there were two different mines being discussed, not that I understand why any of the rest of us care.  Wherever the mine is, it's too far for me to mine it and I don't have a miner's guild anyway.  I'm sure whoever is in the area will work it out somehow.
Back to Top
Diomedes View Drop Down
Forum Warrior
Forum Warrior
Avatar

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 208
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2012 at 06:37
The two chief dangers in this sorry saga are already apparent:

1. An endless discussion in the forum regarding a very small incident that has escalated into war. Thus we debate whom did what to whom, and why ad nauseum, as a sort of voyeuristic show;

2. An attack by one alliance involved in a confederation on another alliance involved in a confederation, inevitably will bring in more players and alliances - as in RL, so it is with Illy.

The only hope is for the combatants to stop responding to comments here, and find a way to resolve their differences. Someone once said, "The best man in a fight is the one who walks away before it starts."
"Walk in the way of the good, for the righteous will dwell in the land"
Back to Top
Mogul View Drop Down
Forum Warrior
Forum Warrior


Joined: 23 Sep 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 233
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2012 at 06:46
So your towns "own" 24 closest squares around them and if someone is harvesting there you call them "The offending party".

But when you occupy with army and harvest on square that is within those 24 squares around other alliance town it is called "RHY player successfully secured" square.

Besides that square is totally surrounded by maybe 15+ SkB towns and if I understood it correctly all fights where happening only on that square and 5+ days after you agreed to leave it...

I mean all fights except RHY players now siege some random Absa players...

---

Personally I don't think Consone will respond same way and start to siege your players but if you hope that your siege armies won't be attack you are most likely wrong. Smile

(however even I am part of Consone, this is just my personal opinion as I found out about this conflict only few minutes ago when I saw siege notice in GC)
Back to Top
LordOfTheSwamp View Drop Down
Forum Warrior
Forum Warrior
Avatar

Joined: 23 May 2011
Location: Swamp of Fyrgis
Status: Offline
Points: 481
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2012 at 10:26
There are two issues here, as far as I can see.

1) RHY decided to claim some mines that someone else had a better claim to. A bit aggressive, but unfortunately there's a lot of that about. (Heck, we've seen someone in WE being obnoxious over gatherables and we're supposed to be Confederated with them!) Not a massive deal. They can't be surprised if their victims get grumpy and attack / ask their confeds to attack in order to take back what they reasonably think is theirs.

2) RHY launch diplo attacks, and now launch sieges and declare War because... errr... they didn't like someone standing up to them? (If there's a better reason, I'm not seeing it.)

The two are not in the same league. (1) would just be "fine, so they're being jerks - sadly some alliances have decided to respond to the new gathering and crafting by being jerks, that's just how it is." (2) is seriously "WTF?!"

(Edited to remove vague grumpiness!)


Edited by LordOfTheSwamp - 10 Oct 2012 at 11:55
"A boy is building sandcastles on a beach. You go and kick down his castle. You could say that it only reflects how you play with sandcastles. Others may think it reflects who you are." - Ander.
Back to Top
LordOfTheSwamp View Drop Down
Forum Warrior
Forum Warrior
Avatar

Joined: 23 May 2011
Location: Swamp of Fyrgis
Status: Offline
Points: 481
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2012 at 10:33
As an update: last night, shortly after the declaration of War versus Absa, the Frost town closest to RHY's main concentration was hit by a massive Theft attack. This may be a coincidence, but it's the first major theft attack we've suffered in a year, so you'll forgive me for suspecting that RHY are trying to stir up a bigger conflict.

You'll also forgive me for observing that several big alliances - but most notably RHY - have had limited involvement in the tournament, so my pessimistic side fears that someone has been planning to start a big war for a while, and the Absa/SkB mines dispute is just an excuse, waiting until people are weakened by the tournament.
"A boy is building sandcastles on a beach. You go and kick down his castle. You could say that it only reflects how you play with sandcastles. Others may think it reflects who you are." - Ander.
Back to Top
RHY Press Office View Drop Down
New Poster
New Poster
Avatar

Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 19
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2012 at 12:27
Originally posted by Ander Ander wrote:

 
Absa involvement in this was Messer and Hugie attacked the camp 5 and 7 days after promised withdrawal of RHY troops. Their actions were out of personal friendship with involved SkB members and we fully back their actions.

This is precisely the crux of our conflict with ABSA. Again -- we were never headed for war with SkB over that mine. The issue was that we were attacked in a completely unprovoked manner by ABSA, who had no stake in the mining dispute. 

Players are welcome to focus on this being a war over a mining issue, but it isn't: it's a war over being attacked by another alliance over a issue that didn't even involve them, and their unwillingness to negotiate a diplomatic resolution.  

Of particular note:

The above admission is a confirmation that Messer and Hugie indeed were asked by SkB members to attack our position on the mine. Messer was deft enough in his original reply to not explicitly admit that he was acting at the behest of SkB. This was the reason why SkB has not been included in our declaration of war; there was no explicit proof of collusion between the two alliances. Thanks to the above quote, we now have an admission of a conspiracy, with two alliances, SkB and ABSA, collaborating on an unprovoked attack on RHY troops.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 65>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.