Retired Thread - Lorre vs VALAR DDD

> FW: [_duQ sitting] RE: RE: I am sorry but I have to do this
> Received: 01 Jul 2011 04:29
> Original Message:

Sorry Quicks had to use your account, Azreil doesn't want me to speak to all because he's transparent.

OK Az no permission to mail the alliance!! You're really really a small leader. I will send it to all anyway even if I have to do it one by one! What did you think? Btw I've never asked to be seeker of bullsh*t nor any more than basic member.

DONT DISCUSS NOR BROADCAST OUTSIDE THE ALLIANCE [or people may hear my side of the story!!!] 

IGM mainly for Az, cc to the alliance

> RE: RE: I am sorry but I have to do this
> Received: 30 Jun 2011 22:49
> Original Message:

I 'm not reading igm that long with that title!

Before reading the short version of what have to say, I demand to you immediate compensation for all H aggressions against me and I don't care from where that comes.

> RE: I am sorry but I have to do this
> Received: 30 Jun 2011 20:13
> Original Message:

COPY OF THIS MESSAGE IS FOR THE EYES ONLY OF THE SEEKERS, HIGH COUNCIL, ELDARS,  ARCHONS, HIGH HUNTRESS, PALADINS, WARLOCKS, WARRIORS, AND VIZIERS ONLY.

DONT DISCUSS NOR BROADCAST OUTSIDE THE ALLIANCE

_duQ

By your own account, you cant follow my directions on the anjire matter and you are saying that you could not be part of this alliance anymore if I dont listen to what you have  in mind regarding anjire,  then you are free to go.  I will let you play your own strategy since that is what you want, but outside of the VALAR. Remember I created this alliance,  gave it its soul, peopled it with recruits, including players who were much much bigger than I was, and earned everybody’s trust by listening to them. And the alliance is saying that they dont approve of your actions. You sure have noticed the “lack of support” from me and/or the alliance. Precisely you don’t have support because you are embarking on your self-centered strategy.

I also listened to you at the start of the berberos affair that is why I gave you the room to be aggressive even if it does not sit well with the alliance.

I value your aggressiveness and your wargaming mentality but I couldn’t see in you the political shrewdness of the likes of H and Dlords. No player will survive this game were it for his military thinking abilities alone. This is what happened to Nige and his TMM. They have become so confident of their military prowess that they took on the whole community. I dont want the same thing happening to the VALAR.  This is what you lack and what you dont see – a sense of Illyriad history and politics.  You have become stubborn, arrogant, duplicitous and intolerant of others’ values and sentiments, including mine, and has put this alliance at great risk of being destroyed by the community.

We have come to this point where we have diverged already in what strategy to play here. For me, the following takes precedence over any other consideration:

1. we dont court conflict with H - this is why i couldnt support you on the actions that you have taken with regard to anjire.

2. we play to the community's sentiments about not bashing newbies. - that is why i couldnt support your strategy on berberos.  There is no point in belabouring that berberos is fair game.  I agreed with you on that at the start but once PA enticed the hostility of the community or a good portion of it against us, then we backed off and told you not to lay your hands on berberos any more. There is no point trying to justify it anymore. That issue is supposed to be dead already. That is my strategy of weathering away the bad publicity. If you dont believe that publicity and reputation plays a major part in winning this game, then try it on your own. I am confident that the VALAR has come to this position of leadership in the game because I have  played our political  and diplomatic cards well. And I dont want you destroying that.

Also, no amount of justifying will turn the tide of public opinion that has surged against us due to this berberos affair. Even the leaders of 0-0 and VIC do not approve of our actions on berberos. We dont have any support as far as berberos is concerned you have to realize that. This is why there is no more point in trying to argue that. The strategy that I have taken is to let the issue die down. and not engage in a useless debate.  And here you go still insisting that you have the right strategy only that the alliance or I didn’t give you full support. I will be blunt with you duQ: you are arrogant and self-centered. That post about plebeians and patricians was uncalled for. It just showed your true person and it just served to worsen the bad PR that the berberos affair has generated.

I have always respected what you wanted to do with your game. This is why I have always given you leeway and tolerated actions which with other valar players I would reject outright. But i will have to tell you now that you are trying to take on directions which are not aligned with what I have planned and envisioned for this alliance. And your intransigence is alienating the more level-headed members of the alliance. Even though you and I share the same interest for playing the wargaming part of this game, the VALAR is not all about warfare, and as I have already said on many occasions before, we are and should be sensitive and responsive to the values and ideologies of the community and adjust accordingly. We could not play this game as if only we have the monopoly of brilliance, as your words and actions have show on many previous occasions. This is where our basic differences are rooted.  

And I dont want you telling me about strategic directions. Otherwise we will be a cacophony of conflicting strategies and we will achieve nothing. You should have followed my strategy.  If your strategy is diverging from mine then time to part ways bud. No need to debate it will just leave bad memories bet you and me.  I would just like to tell you that I respect your style and you are free to play your strategy as you want it. But since you dont want to be told you say. So you may get out of the alliance.

And since you have shown and proven to be a stubborn and obstinate character, i have decided to let you go and am ready to kick you out.  if you want you could confederate your own alliance with the valar. If you are confident about your abilities then you are on your own. You may even want to war with us, if you feel aggrieved by this decision.

You have to realize buddy that all members of the alliance do not want any more conflict that puts it in a bad light. you may ask all senior members of the alliance, darkone, tigre, boromir, jvsj, dots, boisdesantal. the High Council, the Paladins, the Warriors, Dakota, all of them. NOBODY is  happy with your recent aggressive behavior. You dont seem to see it that were it not for the valar all this game would have ganged up on you. The community hates duQ not the VALAR. You have to realize this. The alliance has been shielding you all this time. If you dont believe this, go see for yourself by being on your own or by having your own alliance.  i will give you the benefit of rejoining us if you find it hard to survive out there on your own. But I doubt you will do that because you have a mind of you own you keep telling me.

I have always said that we should not overstep being aggressive so that we could be creative about how to create conflicts. I have been tolerating you because I have always considered you as a buddy. Even though you also lash at me with those "dont tell me as if i am a child" routine.

I will give you the benefit of a graceful exit so that you could prepare yourself and not be ganged upon by H and all others who have come to hate you and your "arrogance."  But I have isolated you from this point onward.  And demoted you in position since you are no longer in a position of trust worthy to be a Seeker of the Valar. You could quit the game that would be better for everyone to be frank about it.

Remember I could kick you anytime and i could not care less. I have accepted this sad reality that I dont want to control you and you dont want to be controled but you could not drag this alliance down with you. 

WITH DUE RESPECT TO YOUR PERSON AND YOUR LONG ASSOCIATION WITH THE VALAR,  I WILL GIVE YOU 24 HOURS TO LET YOU DECIDE WHAT YOUR NEXT ACTION WILL BE – which will be one of the following options:

1.         leave the alliance voluntarily

2.         Stay with the alliance – SUBJECT TO THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS:

a. you dont take any agressive OR OFFENSIVE actions against other players, INCLUDING ANJIRE,  without my prior approval

b. YOU WILL FOLLOW THE VALAR LINE ON HOW TO DEAL WITH POLITICAL  AND DIPLOMATIC ISSUES .

c. YOU WILL NOT ISSUE PUBLIC STATEMENTS DETRIMENTAL TO THE INTERESTS OF THE ALLIANCE

d. YOU WILL NOT DISCUSS DIVISIVE ISSUES AND ISSUE SUBVERSIVE STATEMENTS ON ALLIANCE CHAT.

d. WE WILL NEGOTIATE A PEACEFUL SETTLEMENT WITH H? OVER THE ANJIRE AFFAIR.

e. YOU WILL APPOINT A FULL TIME SITTER ON YOUR ACCOUNT .

3.         IF I HEAR OF ANY DISSENTING OPINION FROM YOU DIRECTED AT THE ALLIANCE THAT WILL JEOPARDIZE THE MORALE AND UNITY OF THE ALLIANCE,  I WILL KICK YOU  OUT RIGHT AWAY.

4.         YOU ARE FREE TO LASH AT ME, AND OF COURSE YOU ARE OUT AND ON YOUR OWN.

5.         IF I DONT HEAR FROM YOU IN 24 HOURS, CONSIDER YOURSELF OUT OF THE ALLIANCE FOR GOOD.

I am sorry bud.  IF YOU CHOOSE THE OPTION OF NOT STAYING WITH THE ALLIANCE ANY LONGER,  THEN I WILL BID YOU GOOD LUCK AND FAREWELL.

COPY OF THIS MESSAGE IS FOR THE EYES OF THE SEEKERS, HIGH COUNCIL, ELDARS,  ARCHONS, HIGH HUNTRESS, PALADINS, WARLOCKS, WARRIORS, AND VIZIERS ONLY.

> RE: RE: FW: RE: Re: Anjire and _duQ
> Received: 30 Jun 2011 13:47
> Original Message: duQ to Azreil

No I can't follow you on that.

Because, and it's the case from the beginning of berberos skirmish, you're saying "_duQ is wrong but I'm tolerating him because it's good for the game". I'm not wrong and I don't want to be part of a team that just tolerates me!

And the bad PR doesn't come from my actions, but from the inability of Valar to indorse my acts and your lack of trust regarding my strategies.

What right have H to demand that a Valar member refrains from occupying a free squareanywhere in the map? What's that new magic rule about 3 squares of a city? It's bullsh*t! You want to prevent people from settling, you actually take sovereignty. Anyway, I was occupying 4 squares from Anjire's!

Why didn't you just play dumb and tell them that? Instead you said _duQ is bad boy and i'm tolerating him!

• So now, I'm demanding that Valar demands Createure refunding the troops he has destroyed during the legitimate (see below) siege of berberos. As I don't really need it, choose any of our noobs as beneficiary.
• Anjire is destroying Vom Krieg's caravans. So I will put in play the next part of my plan regarding him. And as I'm doubting your trust, I wont tell you what it is.

From now on, Az, you have to begin to TRUST me. I'm a grown-up, please stop sending me igms with a "what were you thinking" lecture. Instead try asking me what I was thinking and moreover how the alliance could support my strategy. And, well, if you don't want to support me, what am I doing here?

NB: A good strategy is never a mere set of actions. A good strategy is a dynamical plan that considers every possibilities.

Legitimate siege!

Damn, berberos was fair game! The guy had 2 towns (when I created my 2nd town, I had 4K troops and I wasn't considering me as a noob anymore and I was attacking and winning against both Viktor1992 and Erik Dirk who did then recruit me for IE), no alliance and provoked a big player (me) -- (when I created my 2nd town I wasn't thinking OK cool now I will provoke Waylander and cry for help if he attacks). It's normal to loose a town in that situation. Then he whined twisting reality and having all those simpletons taking his defense because of his status of "newbie". Then he joined an alliance, with which I negociated a very fair deal (payment of all his losses and compensation for the relocation and honestly his current square sucks). And berberos screwed it up by whining on GC again, against his alliance will!

There is also a possibility, that berberos can't teleport, which means he did teleport volontarily 10 squares from from second city. That would be an attack from his part that legitimates my siege. Which would mean the whole thing would be a set up.

If berberos can teleport, he didn't to annoy me OK. But from my part I have no mean to know if it's true! So I HAVE to consider we're in the previous situation. And that's the fundamental reason why I attacked him in the 1st place.

You can tell that to the community to amend our "H-says-bad-PR". But if you tell that to the community, the logical consequence would that Valar sieges berberos.

Anjire

Now, what is that! Anjire's newbie too? Why should we apology for ... for what? Anjire crying wolf?

What happened really?

Anjire is a daily clicker! (as we probably have plenty in our alliance). SO his play dynamic is to click each day and see his cities grow. I recommend my friend Ian Bogost's facebook game Cow Clicker for all who take pleasure in daily clicking instead of playing the game.

So Anjire... He's never taken any sovereignty square and there was that 20 food squ 3 square from him! And weeks were passing.

So naturally, (back during the tourney when I ported my capital) I planned to test his interest for that 20 food. -766|-353 is a good spot, not only there is that 20 but there another 14 food and a lot of other basic res big bonuses. Ideal for a basic resources factory. And I could have taken the spot without Anjire knowing it until too late (when I say "I", I mean _viceRoy). But that wasn't my intention, my intention was to first to see if Anjire was motivated by the 20. SO I (_duQ) occupied -766|-353, so he could obviously see that I was aiming for it! 2 possible outputs, either he is and I abort the settling or he isn't and I settle. And most you are thinking, but why don't you just ask Anjire? Because if I ask Anjire, I point out to him that I think he SHOULD be motivated by the 20. He would probably answer "yes it's mine" and then never ever take it.

> RE: FW: RE: Re: Anjire and _duQ

> Received: 29 Jun 2011 13:44
> Original Message: Az to duQ

To: duQ

CC: Darkone and tigre

duQ, I want to be transparent with you so I am giving you the exact copy of what i sent to Honored Mule.I trust that you will follow me on this.

Thanks

Azreil

> FW: RE: Re: Anjire and _duQ
> Received: 29 Jun 2011 13:40
> Original Message: Azreil to Honored Mule

Hi HM,

As early as the first message of Anjire provided to me, I have immediately asked duQ to recall his troops as Anjire has asked. Which is why he recalled them. I  insisted upon him to respect the 3-square distance from anjire to the 20-plot square as part of anjire's effective sovereignty. I would have done the same as anjire.

But i am not up-to-date with regard to the settling part and I will ask duQ what now are his intentions.

To be honest with you, we backed him up with regard to berberos because we believe that it is up to us, not lorre, to manage our affairs and secure the alignments of  our members. And I always believe in proper statesmanship, in contrast with the mob-rule style of lorre. This is why I have always had the most ardent admiration for your profoundness and leadership and diplomatic acumen.  :). 

I also give duQ some leeway because I have always considered him a part of the valar and entrusted him with a senior leadership position . I really dont mind the bad PR image he is generating, we all have our share of detractors, and somehow these tensions play to our kind of game, strategically.  But as far as berberos is concerned duQ has bbeen made to understand that he should lay his hands off Berberos or any other newbies for that matter.

The VALAR shall represent an alternative gameplay, as I have set out in our Mission Statement, and frankly it is aggressive in kind, this is why we have players like duQ among our ranks, But from my leadershship standpoint, there will always be the line  to reconcile our member's individual play style or even in-game personality/behavior  with the official and un-official alliance directions, which, let me assure you, are both very much sensitive and responsive to what the gaming community here desires. And I take this leadership responsibility to make sure that we shall be a healthy addition to the game all in all. 

The VALAR may project this image of nastiness, backed by some aggressive record, but I hope you will understand, this is just creating a healthy tension for the meta-game, but we are not here to be in conflict with H nor to play irresponsibly.

In short, there is a limit to to what "aggressive behavior" we can condone in duQ or any other member for that matter.

I am sharing this with you in confidence and trust that this will not be shared to the general public or used in any  propaganda tool against the valar. But even so, I am actually touching on some key principles here that I am planning to announce to the community to help it understand us in a more positive manner (I hope ^^).  More importantly, I am sharing this with you out of respect for a great leader, so that that you will see where I am coming from, and so that you will trust these statements coming from me.

Let me get back to duQ to strongly advise him to respect your intentions re the squares around anjire and to drop such demands as he have made.

Thank you very much and best regards,

Azreil