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Rill View Drop Down
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Points: 6903 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2014 at 07:31
I am not sure that I miss your point so much as disagree with it, Bela.  I believe it is possible for a war to end with a negotiated peace in which people are treated with respect.  I hope to treat those who are on the other side with respect no matter which side wins.
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Tatharion View Drop Down
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Originally posted by belargyle belargyle wrote:

Tath,

Seriously, you don't seem to comprehend the BASIC mechanics of the game.
Our (as in Dlord) population and city count has very little to do with what you have sieged. Really, do I need to break it down for you. Apparently I do, so here you go...

Watch what happens with a player is kicked from Dlords, or after being inactive - disappears (and having 8 to 10 cities no less ... *gasp!!  You guessed it - reduction without a single city sieged.  Dlord has had some accounts we got rid of after the war started, and some disappeared. Not because you presume yourself to be 'that' that good.. LOL.

Pop drops, cities and land claims do as well when players get booted, or removed.

And as for city losses. Some of those losses are simply strategic for various reasons, but then you seem love presuming things you you seem to have little to no knowledge of.

Am I being somewhat obtuse and crass with you? Yes, cause I personally find your attitude more insolent than courteous. If you want to keep bashing on someone - HERE WE ARE! Just leave the ones who surrendered alone. If you desire to brag and boast - do it after the war. Till then it is all up in the air.

Bel,
 
It always is both an honour and a pleasure to be enlightened on the BASIC mechanics of the game by a leader of your poise and stature. 

For the record, Invictus is not - I repeat not - involved in this conflict. We are a neutral party and intend to remain so. As a consequence, you might have noticed that we have not been a part of any sieges on you, nor anyone else... Please understand that I have no desire, nor angle whatsoever in bragging and boasting, but just keep a balanced, measured and objective assessment of what's actually happening on the ground.

I am fully convinced I have little knowledge of 'things' in your war, and this is the main reason why I started to track publicly available data and nothing else. I am afraid my reply was only directly tied to your assertion about cities count as I think it is important that actual data matter more than anything else, your comments included. I am afraid I don't do spin, nor have the patience for it like you seem to have.

Please remain assured that we keep track not just on Dlords particulars but on the top 100 Alliance situation at all times. 

Playing the game is all what this about, nothing more, nothing less, Smile

PS: Peace is what Elgea needs at this stage, and if there is anything I can do to bring back peace I will happily do so.  

Best, 
Tatharion




Edited by Tatharion - 23 Jan 2014 at 07:53
Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
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belargyle View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

I am not sure that I miss your point so much as disagree with it, Bela.  I believe it is possible for a war to end with a negotiated peace in which people are treated with respect.  I hope to treat those who are on the other side with respect no matter which side wins.

What are you disagreeing with that I stated Rill??

Here is what I said, that you seem to disagree with:
Quote This is one of the reasons surrender, to some groups, is not an option nor is it for many individuals.

One of the reasons some will not surrender. I have never stated nor alluded to - it is not possible for a war to end in which people are treated with respect.

I stated that because of the attitudes of many, (contrary to your above) many will not surrender.

I'm missing something apparently. Please elaborate on where we disagree.
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belargyle View Drop Down
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Points: 401 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote belargyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2014 at 08:01
Tath,

If your balanced in any way or that the numbers you placed out there are, then I'm an Elf!

You can't even admit you messed up trying to 'prove' Dlord had more than 1/10 of our cities sieged so that you could try to openly 'correct me'  (*cough - shame me) cause numbers don't lie, and therefore be forced to admit Dlord does have tremendous losses.  But instead you proved that numbers do lie, IF you don't use them right nor have all your facts (which you didn't).

And I'll say this too - Leave RE alone As you said, you not in this but 'supposedly' neutral so stop harping on them. That was main and only point. They surrendered and was trying to make sure everyone understood they are not trying to enter the war effort.

I consider it a privilege to be your teacher :)


Edited by belargyle - 23 Jan 2014 at 08:08
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Tatharion View Drop Down
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In thy kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed is king...

PS: I am not sure I know what you are talking about with RE? As far as VIC's leadership knows, we haven't had any recent issues with RE. This is a serious matter to me. In what way precisely did VIC wronged RE?

PPS: I am a proud elf and I stick by my statement.

PPPS: Last I checked, numbers don't 'speak'. You seem to confuse the realm of numbers with the one of spinners. 

PPPPS: I think I understand why we can't see it eye-to-eye. As far I am concerned, and this is the only element I consider:  a city is 'lost' when .... it's no longer in the alliance's count!!.... full stop! I have never pretended to venture in the murky marshes of trying to understand for what reason (sieges, being kicked, going for a vacation trip in another alliance, moonlighting,...) a city is 'lost'. 

Best,
Tath


Edited by Tatharion - 23 Jan 2014 at 08:59
Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
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Rill View Drop Down
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Points: 6903 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2014 at 09:12
Perhaps I merely misunderstand you.  Can you clarify for me what exactly is one of the reasons surrender is not an option for some people?  Personally I'd be interested in hearing all of the reasons, but you seemed to allude to one specifically and I apparently don't properly understand what that reason is.

So, can you explain that reason, or by preference as many of the reasons as you're willing to share?

Perhaps that discussion should go in a different thread, since it seems that we've strayed from the original topic.
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Tamaeon View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Praetor Nistiner Praetor Nistiner wrote:

Originally posted by Tamaeon Tamaeon wrote:

Originally posted by Praetor Nistiner Praetor Nistiner wrote:

Personnaly i believe  Peace was only made because  ditto intervened, But  that just my opinion im sure  zynot has all the mails and stuff and yes and we thanked Vcrow for there smooth negotiations, Iam refering to TVM Dlords and poor Gottfried and once  again u put RE into it- RE  part  specificly says we will stay out of conflicts and that the aggressive part is just my  opinion- and  i do think peace can be achieved.

Credit should definitely be given where it is due. Though I'm sure you know that peace wasn't only achieved through the successful efforts of Zynot and Dittobite. A very large part was thanks to the willingness of all parties (NAAM, CK, uCrow and RE especially...) to adhere to a lengthy cease fire. I don't want to highlight my own role here; but I do have to point out that uCrow negotiated the original cease fire between RE and CK, while pledging to abstain from hostilities towards RE. A feat which as you surely remember, was repaid with a war declaration from RE after uCrow declared on TCol.

That said; I do understand your reservations about the progress of the war and the enormous losses TVM, DLord and most recently TCol are suffering. I personally think all this destruction is unnecessary; but our side has no choice but to continue fighting as long as the other side refuses to do their part to help end the conflict. As long as they believe they can break our spirit, or even pull a hail mary... they will continue fighting in the hopes of achieving victory.

So I do respect your opinion, but your comments strike me as somewhat of a slap across the face. Putting all the blame on your former enemy for the toll the war is taking; without considering the coalition's contribution is frankly distasteful... especially considering that RE faired very well in the conflict.

Iam sorry u think i`ts a  slap in the face  it was last  of intentions-And we  thanked NAAM CK and u guys now for being coroporitive with Vcrow and Zynot-Zynot has been trying he`s best to talk with some leaders in the side of the coalition to end the war  but  principle and pride makes it impossible-Iam just  angry since many friends  have quit or been destroyed which is bad  i understand u are forced to do thus but u can just  attack and make sure they dont re build as off to completely  destroy everyone-RE has faired  well thnx to the hard work of the leadership and coroporitive  of all the alliance involved in the conflict with RE- Reason why i decided to post these to try and put an end  to comments that RE has intentions of   re joining the war  which is not the case. 

We know that RE won't rejoin the conflict; or at least, we trust you guys enough to not be concerned about that. As I said; I do respect your opinion, but disagree with what seemed as you blaming us for all the losses in the war.
"How happy is the blameless vestal's lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each prayer accepted, and each wish resigned."
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Tamaeon View Drop Down
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Originally posted by belargyle belargyle wrote:

This is one of the reasons surrender, to some groups, is not an option nor is it for many individuals. You have to not only be continually sucking up to their egos (speak nice nice or you will be back in the war) but you must also leave your tongue hanging out at all time so you can lick their feel when they happen by... oh, and smile while you do it apparently.  -- This is regardless of who is at war with whom --

It looks like your concern is based more on the outcome of previous wars, than the reality that governs our side's perception and objectives in the current conflict. The idea that RE are prohibited from speaking their minds, or are under any kind of threat is false. My objection as repeatedly stated, was based on the simple fact that RE -- to their credit -- were able to accomplish peace with no losses. An option which by the way, is also available to DLord.

Originally posted by belargyle belargyle wrote:

 If you feel like he slapped you.. suck it! Anyone who isn't looking to bring RE back into the war for their own personal agenda can see the thread isn't intending on conveying any such insult.

Seriously, You guys/gals crack me up

No offense, but by the looks of it... YOU seem to be the only person interested bringing RE back into the war.

Originally posted by belargyle belargyle wrote:

 P.S. Dlord hasn't had 'tremendous losses' (lol). Yes, we have had some cities lost - so what, that doesn't even account for 1/10 of our what we have so keep the spin to a minimum.

Let's use the phrase 'tremendous losses' when a group has lost 1/4 or more of their towns. I would agree that any group who lost at least that amount of cities would indeed constitute using the phrase, 'tremendous losses'.

So is this what its going to take for DLord to embrace peace? The entire alliance losing 1/4th of its (active) towns? I understand that surrender is bad for the ego, but as I mentioned above... DLord has the option to leave the war without enduring any further losses. As far as "victory metrics" go; I personally hate to limit the count exclusively to active cities razed, as it forces both sides to inflict much more damage.

To clarify my statement about tremendous losses: I personally define it as a ratio; cities razed to cities lost.

And finally, I want to highlight Rill's post...

Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

I respect Bela for speaking his mind.  I do think he underestimates many people in Illy on BOTH sides who do not respond to disagreement with threats of force or use of force.

I hope that he will see the experience of folks from his alliance and other alliances that those who make peace are treated with respect.  It is difficult to refrain from kicking someone when he is down, especially if that person just kicked you (or your friends), but I believe that we can forge a new path.

Bela, I can understand your fears.  I hope that you will eventually discover they were unfounded.

I couldn't have put it better!
"How happy is the blameless vestal's lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each prayer accepted, and each wish resigned."
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Darkwords View Drop Down
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I would like to make a couple of comments on here:

1 - On the actual tread subject itself.  The issue that had been taken RE:RE was due to Nistiners  trolling on GC and some half hearted (and possibly jovial) threats he had made there.  Nistiner to my knowledge has since stopped this and I believe this post was intended to act as some declaration to that point.  Perhaps it was poorly worded and was mis-understood, but really that should not be an issue.

2- On the DLord sideline (thread de-railment); Bela has made his view clear and it is 'his view', we should respect that.  As I commented in my previous post in this thread, what it comes down to is a matter of personal values, whilst some consider DLord to have suffered 'tremendous loses', others do not, there is NOTHING wrong with such differences of opinion.
<Deranzin> I'd agree with darkone on that

[21:59]<ropadope> you know I am perverted

<Bartleby> dark is upsetting some peeps
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Hora View Drop Down
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Well...

It's the task of each alliance to determine their own status in this war.

Some render themselfes on the winning side, some on the downside. I'm not as far into statistics as to determine who is who...

Then again, there's a point, where the loss in players hurt more than the actual surrender or cease fire itself.
Each alliance must take this decision by themselves.
An alliance leader might be in fear, that he might loose more members when surrendering than when keeping on fighting.
VIC had been in a similar position during the last war. I can say we put up a decent fight and were determined not to surrender. But more and more players and allies stated, they couldn't take the constant state of alarm and the lies in the forums (from both sides) anymore, RL being far more important - and left, sometimes even the game.
And this was the point, when we surrendered and paid the reparations. I dare say the consequent peace was worth the money, but that's my opinion again.
If all members want to keep on fighting and are up to it, why should an alliance stop?

Thus, I don't think there's any point in haggling about numbers (as any alliance seems to have their own... Wink). Each alliance make their offer to the other side, and it's their choice to accept or not. And I recomend IGM for that... Big smile.

kindest regards,
Hora, neutral dwarf.
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