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GM Luna 
New Poster
Community Manager
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Location: Illyriad
Status: Offline
Points: 2042
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 Posted: 30 Oct 2011 at 18:05 |
 Rill wrote:
I
know we're not supposed to discuss the code of conduct, but I will
observe that trolling is often in the eye of the beholder, and any
attempt to regulate trolling in any but the most light-handed manner may
serve to stifle discourse and result in perceptions of favoritism (even
if those perceptions are inaccurate).
The
community actually does a reasonably good job at managing its own
trolls, and I personally hope that moderators show a great deal of
restraint in locking threads, deleting threads, etc. -- including the
ones I don't like or consider trollish. We are for the most part
adults, and treating us like children is just going to make us more
likely to act like children. This is not intended as a criticism of
anyone, just an observation that I hope will be considered. |
To address Rill's concerns and those who've echoed them, I understand what you are saying and will always do my best to be fair in any matter that requires moderation. I'm not looking to remove content that has value to the community. But I also don't think it is too much to ask that everyone act in a civil manner when dealing with one another (and with me). And as you say, this has been primarily the case already so I don't see this as much of a change. @The_Dude Having rules with relation to conduct should not have an effect on PVP gameplay. As SC said, every game has these sorts of rules, PVP or not. They are mostly just guidelines for common decency and exist to prevent disagreements from escalating into full blown harassment. And again, the rules are not up for debate though I am happy to continue to answer any questions with relation to them, preferably in private message or email. Thanks -Luna
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GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk 
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GM Stormcrow
Moderator Group
GM
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Location: Illyria
Status: Offline
Points: 3820
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Posted: 30 Oct 2011 at 17:48 |
Koragg wrote:
Thanks, StormCrow, then the simple solution to a lot of the problems people have with your Code of Conduct would be solved by changing the one line to "discussion of activities illegal in the United Kingdom and Wales', or similarly appropriate verbiage to indicate which jurisdiction is applicable.
I only resort to 'ad absurtum' when the reasonable and rational arguments get completely ignored and unadressed, which they have been until just now. |
Well, it is generally an entirely pointless and arbitrary discussion, as it is also all tempered by the over-riding caveat '... and any behaviour, conduct or activity that we, at our sole discretion, choose to deem inappropriate...'. Again, this is very, very standard MMO/site Ts and Cs.
What we're not interested in doing is having armchair lawyers coming to us and saying "... but you kicked me out of the game for cheating - multi-accounting is not in the statutes of the United Kingdom".
Even worse than that are those who will choose to skirt around the edge of common-sense acceptable behaviour in the belief that they're "protected" in some way because they haven't broken any written-down rule.
If you ever find yourself thinking "I wonder if this breaks any of the laws of the United Kingdom?" or "I wonder if this constitutes acceptable behaviour" or "I wonder if the GMs will get angry with me for saying X?" then you're probably on the wrong side of acceptable behaviour and the code of conduct already.
Regards,
SC
Edited by GM Stormcrow - 30 Oct 2011 at 17:49
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GM Luna
New Poster
Community Manager
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Location: Illyriad
Status: Offline
Points: 2042
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Posted: 30 Oct 2011 at 14:45 |
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I appreciate your input on this Koragg but the wording stands as is.
-Luna
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GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk
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Koragg
Greenhorn
Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 67
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Posted: 30 Oct 2011 at 14:42 |
Thanks, StormCrow, then the simple solution to a lot of the problems people have with your Code of Conduct would be solved by changing the one line to " discussion of activities illegal in the United Kingdom and Wales', or similarly appropriate verbiage to indicate which jurisdiction is applicable.
I only resort to 'ad absurtum' when the reasonable and rational arguments get completely ignored and unadressed, which they have been until just now.
Edited by Koragg - 30 Oct 2011 at 14:43
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Koragg, Faction Abassador for Dwarven Druids [Druid]
Phineous, Trade Co-ordinator for Fairy Road Authority [Roads]
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GM Stormcrow
Moderator Group
GM
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Location: Illyria
Status: Offline
Points: 3820
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Posted: 30 Oct 2011 at 14:37 |
Koragg wrote:
GM Stormcrow wrote:
I would also like to make clear that these terms and conditions in the code of conduct are absolutely standard for an MMO game.
If you ever played a game like World of Warcraft or Eve Online, you have already agreed to practically identical terms and conditions (and many more besides). |
I don't have a problem with the intent of the rules, it's the WORDING. Especially the jurisdictional issues regarding discussion of illegal activities.
Did you know that in parts of Colorado, it's illegal to own a pet? So would someone on Global Chat be against the Code of Conduct if they discuss their dog or cat?
It's also illegal to do any 'work' on Sunday in Israel, and the definition of 'work' has extended to the use of ANY machinery. Does that mean that players in Global Chat are not allowed to discuss the fact that they are, indeed, playing Illyriad, since in order to do so they would have to be AT THE COMPUTER. (In fact, even posting in Global on a sunday would be commtiting a crime in that jurisdiciton.)
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/me sighs
It is very simple, very clear, and your reductio ad absurdam non-argument is self-evidently ridiculous.
We We, Illyriad Games Ltd, are a UK-based company with UK-based servers. We have to comply with the laws of the United Kingdom, and we have to enforce those laws as they are applicable to us. The jurisdiction for legal matters concerning Illyriad is the United Kingdom, under English & Welsh law, and this is the jurisdiction you have agreed to submit yourself to under the Terms & Conditions of Illyriad, to which you agreed when you began playing the game.
You You are a private individual, and you have residency in some country and jurisdiction in the world. Your compliance with your laws and jurisdiction is a matter for you to follow, and is not something we are required to, or indeed can possibly enforce.
Where those laws are in conflict, the laws of the United Kingdom are the ones that are applied as regards our responsibilities as a corporation to uphold the laws that we operate under.
For example, it might be fine to under your local laws of (eg) "free speech" to say exactly what you like about any topic to anyone. However, under the laws of the United Kingdom we are not permitted to allow our servers to store or transmit (for example) content that could be construed as a "Hate Crime" or "Incitement to Racial Hatred". So we'll remove the content that breaches the laws of the UK, and we will comply with any and all requests from duly authorised officers of the law and courts of the United Kingdom.
Really not difficult to understand, Koragg.
Regards,
SC
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Koragg
Greenhorn
Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 67
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Posted: 30 Oct 2011 at 14:09 |
Koragg wrote:
GM Stormcrow wrote:
I would also like to make clear that these terms and conditions in the code of conduct are absolutely standard for an MMO game.
If you ever played a game like World of Warcraft or Eve Online, you have already agreed to practically identical terms and conditions (and many more besides). |
I don't have a problem with the intent of the rules, it's the WORDING. Especially the jurisdictional issues regarding discussion of illegal activities. (Which, despite being brought up in the original post, has been completely ignored by both GMs that have responded in this thread.)
Did you know that in parts of Colorado, it's illegal to own a pet? So would someone on Global Chat be against the Code of Conduct if they discuss their dog or cat?
It's also illegal to do any 'work' on Sunday in Israel, and the definition of 'work' has extended to the use of ANY machinery. Does that mean that players in Global Chat are not allowed to discuss the fact that they are, indeed, playing Illyriad, since in order to do so they would have to be AT THE COMPUTER. (In fact, even posting in Global on a sunday would be commtiting a crime in that jurisdiciton.)
Also, the phrase 'In the game' diverges from the INTENT of the rule. GM Luna has clearly said that GMs basically don't care what goes on in AC, yet the rules say 'in the game' not 'in global chat or private mail'. The intent clearly seems to contradict the wording.
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Koragg, Faction Abassador for Dwarven Druids [Druid]
Phineous, Trade Co-ordinator for Fairy Road Authority [Roads]
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Koragg
Greenhorn
Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 67
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Posted: 30 Oct 2011 at 14:08 |
GM Stormcrow wrote:
I would also like to make clear that these terms and conditions in the code of conduct are absolutely standard for an MMO game.
If you ever played a game like World of Warcraft or Eve Online, you have already agreed to practically identical terms and conditions (and many more besides). |
I don't have a problem with the intent of the rules, it's the WORDING. Especially the jurisdictional issues regarding discussion of illegal activities.
Did you know that in parts of Colorado, it's illegal to own a pet? So would someone on Global Chat be against the Code of Conduct if they discuss their dog or cat?
It's also illegal to do any 'work' on Sunday in Israel, and the definition of 'work' has extended to the use of ANY machinery. Does that mean that players in Global Chat are not allowed to discuss the fact that they are, indeed, playing Illyriad, since in order to do so they would have to be AT THE COMPUTER. (In fact, even posting in Global on a sunday would be commtiting a crime in that jurisdiciton.)
Also, the phrase 'In the game' diverges from the INTENT of the rule. GM Luna has clearly said that GMs basically don't care what goes on in AC, yet the rules say 'in the game' not 'in global chat or private mail'. The intent clearly seems to contradict the wording.
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Koragg, Faction Abassador for Dwarven Druids [Druid]
Phineous, Trade Co-ordinator for Fairy Road Authority [Roads]
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Kilotov of DokGthung
Postmaster
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 723
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Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 22:41 |
Rill wrote:
I'd like to check my understanding of the rules.
1. It is not OK to harass or abuse another player in any venue, including global chat, private chat, alliance chat, in-game mail, player profiles in-game or on the forum, forum posts or forum mail.
2. It is similarly not OK to advocate, conspire to commit or commit illegal activities in any of those venues.
3. It is permissible to exchange contact information such as e-mail or Facebook information in any venue EXCEPT global chat and forum posts. It is similarly permissible to discuss real-world politics and any topics other than those that are abusive or illegal in venues other than global chat and forum posts.
If my understanding of these rules is correct, I don't see where there is a problem.
I know we're not supposed to discuss the code of conduct, but I will observe that trolling is often in the eye of the beholder, and any attempt to regulate trolling in any but the most light-handed manner may serve to stifle discourse and result in perceptions of favoritism (even if those perceptions are inaccurate).
The community actually does a reasonably good job at managing its own trolls, and I personally hope that moderators show a great deal of restraint in locking threads, deleting threads, etc. -- including the ones I don't like or consider trollish. We are for the most part adults, and treating us like children is just going to make us more likely to act like children. This is not intended as a criticism of anyone, just an observation that I hope will be considered. |
pretty much agree whit all of this..for once
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Rill
Postmaster General
Player Council - Geographer
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 6903
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Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 21:45 |
I'm really bummed that I no longer get to claim to be Llyorn of Jaensch. Unless I am, really ...
Are we even allowed to joke about it?
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The_Dude
Postmaster General
Joined: 06 Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 2396
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Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 21:20 |
I think we will have to see how the revised Code is actually enforced. inflammatory name-calling
impersonating fellow players
Public posting of private messages between fellow players
Repeated or bothersome begging for resources in Global Chat
is discouraged The above items, if actually enforced, will greatly change Illy. The resource begging being simply discouraged seems out of place for this Code of Conduct. Mails are routinely posted on the forum as part of the politics and bitter sea discussions. This is no longer allowed. EDIT: Just saw GM Luna's new post on removing the Bitter Sea topic section altogether. So, these are big changes to PvP. May we expect Factions to go live soon to enhance the PvE experience in Illy? Killing NPCs gets boring. Tournaments heavily favor larger players and alliances. Global Chat frequently has name-calling and inflammatory comments. Sometimes these lead to in-game battles. This is no longer allowed. I think GM Luna will be very busy enforcing these rules.
Edited by The_Dude - 29 Oct 2011 at 21:26
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