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Rorgash 
Postmaster
Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 894
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 Posted: 21 Aug 2012 at 22:30 |
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we dont want to spread out cities out, usually its because it costs alot to bring them together.
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Salararius
Postmaster
Joined: 26 Sep 2011
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 519
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Posted: 21 Aug 2012 at 22:18 |
I wonder how Illy would change if the game were set up so that different parts of Elgea could have different morals? Since morals (right and wrong) are clearly tied to might (thanks Rorgash  ), one method to accomplish this would be to apply limitations or costs on projecting might. What if there were an exponential cost in either gold, time or both to sending armies long distances? How would that effect the now world spanning moral code? If instead of coming to the forum, there was an in game mechanism to send riders to nearby kingdoms? Would more people plead their case locally and would they expect local help? Would there be more varied morals in Elgea? Would alliances act locally and try to establish moral zones? Would adjacent and different moral zones clash and fight?
Would a player like Morph send troops 1,000s of [distance things] because someone said something disrespectful in global chat if Elgea was like that?
Would AEsir attack TLR? Heck would AEsir (or most of the alliances) even exist all spread out as they are?
Right now the devs are trying to get trade going but one barrier is always going to be the fact that there is little cost to spreading out. As a result, most players and alliances have spread their cities and have pretty good access to a wide range of goods without trade. But how would that change if players and alliances didn't want to spread their cities as much?
Just wondering?
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Rorgash
Postmaster
Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 894
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Posted: 21 Aug 2012 at 20:15 |
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might is always right, if one is might enough to claim the rights a weaker power has nothing to say :) atleast not until they have gathered together to have a greater power :)
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Salararius
Postmaster
Joined: 26 Sep 2011
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 519
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Posted: 21 Aug 2012 at 20:12 |
 Hadus wrote:
is it fair to demand that larger players yield to smaller player on the ground of "It's closer to me" or "I saw it first," both of which seem to me like pretty arbitrary ways of determining harvesting right? |
Certainly, if it were that simple then no, I don't believe the community would bestow on the smaller player an inherent right. But there are other scenarios I could conceive. If a smaller player has been working the plot for a few weeks and if he/she has put forth the effort to build the infrastructure to pull the material from Elgea, would the community look on it as "fair" for a big player to send a larger army and claim the resource? How about the scenario where it's the big player sitting on the resource doing nothing with it (that's happening right now) after taking it from the little player?
Certainly there are different scenarios. It's a game, so really I don't believe there is an absolute "right" and "wrong". I am convinced that there is a right and wrong for this community and it may not come down to a simple "might makes right" contest between the two claimants. There may be a bigger force that decides otherwise. It happens here and that's all I'm saying.
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Hadus
Postmaster
Joined: 28 Jun 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 545
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Posted: 21 Aug 2012 at 17:10 |
Salararius wrote:
Rorgash wrote:
sounds to me that you two missed his view on this, he asked why would the small player deserve the stuff? no matter where it is, just because he where there first.
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Why not ask why any new player deserves anything he makes or builds? I think the short answer is that because those players powerful in Illy have sort of crafted that view into the world. How that view translates into rare resources is an unanswered question but it's pretty clear that there is a significant percent of players that don't allow unfettered harassment and bullying of "the smaller" by "the larger".
If someone smaller than me, took something from someone smaller than them and the situation occur ed near me then I'd be happy to fight for that. If it was an easy fight, and it had a clear moral casus belli then I think most people would be happy to do the same. I think that's what most people relish and look forward to because... I'm getting very close to psychoanalyzing people and history so I'll stop before this becomes very befuddled.  |
It's a good question to ask, Salararius. I think the importance difference between rare herbs, minerals, etc. and other advanced res is the method of acquisition. You asked: Why not ask why any new player deserves anything he makes or builds? I'd say that in most cases the small player deserves those items because they produced them all on their own. They built up their res plots/purchases the res, constructed the necessary buildings, performed the nedded research, and produced the items all on their own, in the confines of their city. Because of that, they do deserve what they make and build. That's doesn't make it against the game's rules to thieve or siege and capture a smaller player's goods, but it does make it frowned upon by most of the community. Any form of gathering (basic res, herbs/minerals/hides/parts, grapes, etc.) is a different story entirely. Player's didn't choose where plots popped up, and at this early stage most players haven't had the chance to move near a fertile harvesting area. Herbs, minerals, and other gatherable res were placed on the map by the developers for the players, and it's up to them to earn the ability to harvest. Tell me, is there any reason a smaller player should deserve a harvesting spot they do not have the resources and power to claim or secure? Not only do they lack the military force to fend off larger players who want the spot, they also are less likely to have the necessary trade and crafting research to either put that rare res to use or distribute it to the rest of the community. Faced with this perspective, is it fair to demand that larger players yield to smaller player on the ground of "It's closer to me" or "I saw it first," both of which seem to me like pretty arbitrary ways of determining harvesting right?
Edited by Hadus - 21 Aug 2012 at 17:10
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SugarFree
Forum Warrior
Joined: 09 Feb 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 350
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Posted: 21 Aug 2012 at 16:48 |
you may think that exodus right next gives you all rights. maybe a siege army to your town will make you change yer mind?
i dunno about this topic, but growing a large army and keep pop rising is a tad bit difficult.....
about newbies... and taking what is theirs and so on.. here, newbies have not to worry about aggression and are granted a safe growth, whit no fear of annihilation. a historical event in MMO. now, demanding minerals is a whole other story.. you can claim those in virtue of your vital space and the so called 10 square rule. but any rare resource should not be confused with basic minerals, basic herbs. those IMO are exactly what newbies should focus on. there is a time for the shininess later on. cause, dear newbie, rares are more easy for advanced players to get compared to basics, this makes the idea a newbie is meddling around with ..say miners guild kinda infuriating.. new players with less than 4 towns should not even think about advanced resources, they should think to expand and get sound towns and a buck trough cotters. . . i think no one should man a basic resource plot ( maybe hides and wine) cause those are not really worth defending.
Edited by SugarFree - 21 Aug 2012 at 16:59
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Salararius
Postmaster
Joined: 26 Sep 2011
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 519
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Posted: 21 Aug 2012 at 16:47 |
Rorgash wrote:
sounds to me that you two missed his view on this, he asked why would the small player deserve the stuff? no matter where it is, just because he where there first.
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Why not ask why any new player deserves anything he makes or builds? I think the short answer is that because those players powerful in Illy have sort of crafted that view into the world. How that view translates into rare resources is an unanswered question but it's pretty clear that there is a significant percent of players that don't allow unfettered harassment and bullying of "the smaller" by "the larger".
If someone smaller than me, took something from someone smaller than them and the situation occur ed near me then I'd be happy to fight for that. If it was an easy fight, and it had a clear moral casus belli then I think most people would be happy to do the same. I think that's what most people relish and look forward to because... I'm getting very close to psychoanalyzing people and history so I'll stop before this becomes very befuddled.
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Salararius
Postmaster
Joined: 26 Sep 2011
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 519
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Posted: 21 Aug 2012 at 16:31 |
Rill wrote:
Loud Whispers wrote:
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Let's say a player twice your size claims a rare herb spot and kills your harvesters in the process, even though you were there first. Why do you deserve it? |
When it's 1 square besides your city? |
How long has your city been there? If your city popped up next to someone else's harvest spot, should they automatically be expected to yield it?
I don't know the answer to this, btw, it is a difficult question. On the one hand, newer players need a chance to grow. On the other hand, existing players should not always be expected to automatically yield. Personally I think a sharing arrangement would be ideal, but not everyone is going to agree with that either. |
This happened to one of the spots I was harvesting. The city didn't pop up there but was settled next to a plot I was harvesting about 2 weeks after harvesting started. When the new guy bumped my cotter, I offered to share with the new guy (I actually gave him three choices, bump each other, fight or share).
His reply was a befuddled sorry, I didn't see your cotter and an offer to send me herbs and minerals. I really didn't want his stuff, just some way to share that plot if he was interested in it. I didn't reply and he hasn't bothered my cotters since.
I agree, new people should be given a chance. If they are smart, they will offer to harvest for the bigger player and just send the bigger guy some sort of split of the herbs/minerals. If they are not smart, they'll cede the location or try to fight for it. With how the harvesting is set up there is plenty of opportunity for compromise. I can only send 1 cotter to that spot but it could probably support 4 full time...
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Rorgash
Postmaster
Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 894
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Posted: 21 Aug 2012 at 16:23 |
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sounds to me that you two missed his view on this, he asked why would the small player deserve the stuff? no matter where it is, just because he where there first.
Edited by Rorgash - 21 Aug 2012 at 16:23
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Rill
Postmaster General
Player Council - Geographer
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 6903
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Posted: 21 Aug 2012 at 16:08 |
Loud Whispers wrote:
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Let's say a player twice your size claims a rare herb spot and kills your harvesters in the process, even though you were there first. Why do you deserve it? |
When it's 1 square besides your city? |
How long has your city been there? If your city popped up next to someone else's harvest spot, should they automatically be expected to yield it?
I don't know the answer to this, btw, it is a difficult question. On the one hand, newer players need a chance to grow. On the other hand, existing players should not always be expected to automatically yield. Personally I think a sharing arrangement would be ideal, but not everyone is going to agree with that either.
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