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Hora 
Postmaster
Joined: 10 May 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 839
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 Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 12:39 |
 Deranzin wrote:
I explain with a small example:
Let us take a small group of kids forming a small gang in school. Even kids with not a great physical stature would want to join because it is cool and for the possible protection, so some little kids that hate violence join the gang. Now, in our example, one of the gang members has a street fight with another kid and loses, so he calls upon the gang to beat the other kid up.
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Deranzin, this example has some minor faults in there...
First of all, there wasn't anyone loosing in the start. To stay in your
example: Two kids have a fight, first simply with hands, but suddenly
one side starts throwing with stones. Bigger kids would step in to take
them stones out of his hands, but in NO WAY we where called in to "beat
the other kid up"!
Deranzin wrote:
Now, let us suppose you are the little kid in the gang, what do you do .?. Bail out ? Of course not ! You go along and see what happens, thinking that the larger kids will take care of the problem and you won't have to tangle in the fight.
So, there you are in the streets going for a fight that you do not really want, but you do not really expect to fight ... noone in particular led you there, you just followed the mob, seemingly on your own volition, but not doing so at such a slight notice of danger you would have been branded as a coward and ousted from the cool gang.
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Another bad simile. Consone was founded as defensive group of alliances. Most Consone alliances only joined in after H? took this to the level of "down with this group, as they might grow stronger than us".
Deranzin wrote:
Epimyth :
Making a choice, does not equate free will.
Also, as a personal suggestion, I'd propose that you do not ever use that phrase "free will" ... it has been so misused and abused through the ages that it reeks of propaganda and hidden "truths", so it ends giving your words the exact opposite impression that you want to impart. |
I can't agree with you. If you join a group, stating from the start, that you would join in defending each other, that's choice number one. Noone forced you to do so. If that action arrives, and you are asked, if you want to join in, it's your choice, too. If you say no, you would only contradict the choice you made before. That's the only obstacle in there. Finally, if you decide you want to leave (in this case due to heavy losses), and noone forces you to stay in, why would this contradict free will? Free will is to take the consequences. For Roads, joining Consone and staying for some fighting had the consequence to loose some towns. Now, the choice of leaving the fight has the consequence of fullfilling any peace treaty you worked out. It won't have consequences from any Consone alliance, as we still regard them as friends. Thus I'll further use "Free will", especially in a anonymous browser game!
Deranzin wrote:
P.S.
All the above with respect to Roads. Placing them as the little kid in the example was not meant as demeaning or offensive, but as a comparison between a peaceful alliance and its more warlike confederates.
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Of course, those references to "kids" again was taken from Deranzin's example, thus no offense meant...
Edited by Hora - 28 Nov 2012 at 12:41
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Deranzin
Postmaster
Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 845
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Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 11:04 |
Ossian wrote:
Deranzin wrote:
Jasche wrote:
The structure of Consone is perceived by some as being too loose, and this is a talking point in the forums. So, with that in mind, 'evil' VIC did not 'drag' other alliances into a war when it was on its way down and VIC did not start the confederacy on its own. The lack of a single figurehead or leading alliance has meant that claims that anyone brought anyone else along unwillingly are based on pretty shaky ground.
You cannot criticise us for not having a defined power structure and then claim that we have forced people into this.
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Actually this has nothing to do with having a "defined power structure" and YES even in a mob mentaility (or should I say, by its definition) people think that they are doing what they want, but in fact they are within a mob.
I explain with a small example: .........
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I wish you wouldn't. Your posts always seem to to drift away from the topic in question and into sophistry and provocation. |
What ? You didn't find any vocabulary mistakes this time to somehow make yourself feel better .?. 
If you think that I drifted from the point of the post I quoted then that is your point/problem to prove, not mine and simply saying so, doesn't make it so ...
Btw, to avoid any misunderstandings from any other "goodwilling" ghostlike posters, all the above are ombviously (I leave that extra "m" for Ossian to have something to say  ) my own opinions and do not reflect anyone else's views, unless someone explicitly states that he agrees with what I said.
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Ossian
Forum Warrior
Joined: 12 Oct 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 456
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Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 10:41 |
Deranzin wrote:
Jasche wrote:
The structure of Consone is perceived by some as being too loose, and this is a talking point in the forums. So, with that in mind, 'evil' VIC did not 'drag' other alliances into a war when it was on its way down and VIC did not start the confederacy on its own. The lack of a single figurehead or leading alliance has meant that claims that anyone brought anyone else along unwillingly are based on pretty shaky ground.
You cannot criticise us for not having a defined power structure and then claim that we have forced people into this.
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Actually this has nothing to do with having a "defined power structure" and YES even in a mob mentaility (or should I say, by its definition) people think that they are doing what they want, but in fact they are within a mob.
I explain with a small example: .........
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I wish you wouldn't. Your posts always seem to to drift away from the topic in question and into sophistry and provocation.
Edited by Ossian - 28 Nov 2012 at 10:41
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Deranzin
Postmaster
Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 845
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Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 10:22 |
Jasche wrote:
The structure of Consone is perceived by some as being too loose, and this is a talking point in the forums. So, with that in mind, 'evil' VIC did not 'drag' other alliances into a war when it was on its way down and VIC did not start the confederacy on its own. The lack of a single figurehead or leading alliance has meant that claims that anyone brought anyone else along unwillingly are based on pretty shaky ground.
You cannot criticise us for not having a defined power structure and then claim that we have forced people into this. |
Actually this has nothing to do with having a "defined power structure" and YES even in a mob mentaility (or should I say, by its definition) people think that they are doing what they want, but in fact they are within a mob.
I explain with a small example:
Let us take a small group of kids forming a small gang in school. Even kids with not a great physical stature would want to join because it is cool and for the possible protection, so some little kids that hate violence join the gang. Now, in our example, one of the gang members has a street fight with another kid and loses, so he calls upon the gang to beat the other kid up.
Now, let us suppose you are the little kid in the gang, what do you do .?. Bail out ? Of course not ! You go along and see what happens, thinking that the larger kids will take care of the problem and you won't have to tangle in the fight.
So, there you are in the streets going for a fight that you do not really want, but you do not really expect to fight ... noone in particular led you there, you just followed the mob, seemingly on your own volition, but not doing so at such a slight notice of danger you would have been branded as a coward and ousted from the cool gang.
You arrive at the scene and you realize that the other kid, upon seeing your gang, decided to call upon its friends and now our little kid is in a huge fist fight where it cannot really fight and it didn't want to fight anyway and that wasn't what it signed up for anyway, but it can't leave yet as the fight goes on ... noone wants to be the first to bail out in such cases, hey even little kids have ego, so he waits to see if its gang will win and partake in the victory. It does stay there based on its own choice, but that choice is in fact dictated by the mob mentality, which it cannot really defy unless something snaps the kid out of the mob.
In real life the little kids sometimes gets away with it ... sometimes it does not ...
Now where exactly did you see a "defined power structure" in this example ? 
Epimyth :
Making a choice, does not equate free will.
Also, as a personal suggestion, I'd propose that you do not ever use that phrase "free will" ... it has been so misused and abused through the ages that it reeks of propaganda and hidden "truths", so it ends giving your words the exact opposite impression that you want to impart.
P.S.
All the above with respect to Roads. Placing them as the little kid in the example was not meant as demeaning or offensive, but as a comparison between a peaceful alliance and its more warlike confederates.
Edited by Deranzin - 28 Nov 2012 at 10:25
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Mr Damage
Postmaster
Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 598
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Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 09:09 |
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Nice work Jasche, unfortunately the forums are used by most for propaganda, there are some goods things raised occasionally which I'm happy to applaud from either side, but these are all too few and far between. If people want a better understanding of the war, the best people to ask are the heads of each alliance as that is where the decisions come from. From there the neutrals can form their own opinion on who is right and who is wrong. Good gaming ladies and gents.
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Jasche
Wordsmith
Joined: 06 Jan 2011
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 175
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Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 08:45 |
Kumo,
Let me be clear. All members of Consone who joined in the war did so of their own free will. All were given the option of not joining in, with no prejudice. We have talked about involvement since, and no one has given Roads a hard time for leaving as they have.
The structure of Consone is perceived by some as being too loose, and this is a talking point in the forums. So, with that in mind, 'evil' VIC did not 'drag' other alliances into a war when it was on its way down and VIC did not start the confederacy on its own. The lack of a single figurehead or leading alliance has meant that claims that anyone brought anyone else along unwillingly are based on pretty shaky ground.
You cannot criticise us for not having a defined power structure and then claim that we have forced people into this.
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'The Welfare of the People is the Highest Law' 
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Kumomoto
Postmaster General
Joined: 19 Oct 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 2224
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Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 02:35 |
Hora wrote:
/me mourns upon a victim to this new desease... seems it has proven deadly to those guards defending the research laboratories  "was indeed quite harmless" We knew it was Harmless from the start... (And sorry for casual dropping in Capitals  ) |
Hora-- let's be very clear here. You are part of Invictus (VIC). The alliance that started Soup to create a new power paradigm in Illy. It is exactly your model that is failing. It is your model that dragged Roads into this mess in the first place when they should have stayed neutral the whole time... Honestly... what you should have done when this started is to say straight out... "Hey... H?... you may have a problem with us, but please do not take this out on Roads and others who are innocent of our posturing". And kicked them out of your confed to protect them. That would have been honorable. Instead you kept them in. Kept a neutral alliance to its word that it ended up keeping... despite that it had cities all over that got trashed... I have huge respect for what Roads are trying to do, Hora, despite their misadventure and, in my opinion, pretty lousy association with VIC on its way down...
Edited by Kumomoto - 28 Nov 2012 at 02:36
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Silverlake
Forum Warrior
Joined: 15 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 417
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Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 00:09 |
Well done all... no need to be John McCain...
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Hora
Postmaster
Joined: 10 May 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 839
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Posted: 27 Nov 2012 at 22:29 |
/me mourns upon a victim to this new desease... seems it has proven deadly to those guards defending the research laboratories
"was indeed quite harmless" We knew it was Harmless from the start... (And sorry for casual dropping in Capitals ) |
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Nesse
Forum Warrior
Joined: 03 Oct 2010
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 406
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Posted: 27 Nov 2012 at 20:58 |
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Roads hereby cedes Victory to the coalition and accept the terms aggreed upon. Of course all terms are strictly confidential.
/Odd, Chief Road Coordinator
PS
A thorough investigation has shown that what was previously seen as a plague and a cause for quarantine, was indeed quite harmless, and trove soil additions actually beneficial for the nutrient value of plants gown in such soil. Trade and other interaction with Harmless? is henceforth encouraged.
NOW THEREFORE, pursuant to section 11 of the Bees Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. B.6 (hereinafter "the Act") and the power delegated to me by the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, I hereby lift all quarantine measures regarding the Harmless? alliance.
/Odd, Chief Road Coordinator
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Quarantine lifted
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