Sovreignty Resources Just Not Worth It
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: Miscellaneous
Forum Name: Suggestions & Game Enhancements
Forum Description: Got a great idea? A feature you'd like to see? Share it here!
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=939
Printed Date: 16 Apr 2022 at 22:00 Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Sovreignty Resources Just Not Worth It
Posted By: Shrapnel
Subject: Sovreignty Resources Just Not Worth It
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2010 at 13:55
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For all the excitement I felt over Sovreignty, I feel disappointed. As far as bonuses to production goods and unit, it is still cool and I like it, but when it comes to resource bonuses, it's a bit of a let down. A measly 2, 3, or even 4% just isn't worth the 100gp an hour upkeep. I keep hearing that it will be beneficial when I am larger and I have like 6 or 7 cities. I'm not satisfied with that answer. First I don't see how (though maybe), but more importantly, Sovreignty is such a cool concept, why should players have to wait so long to use it? Getting that many cities could take months. I think resource bonuses should work like production bonuses and the min should be 5%, then add the bonus already given. Most players would then see some kind of benefit from having at least one level 1 sovreign square.
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Replies:
Posted By: Faya
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 17:55
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I agree. The concept of sovren is neat and some of the benefits are nice. But I do think the costs out-weigh the benefits right now. Ive actually been removing some of my sovern claims to get the gold back as I find that more useful in its current state. I look forward to seeing what changes await us though!
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Posted By: waylander69
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 21:14
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Got to agree, i got rid of all mine as the outlay in resources was just not worth it for me, even with the extra cities the gold outlay was to much, more so if gold is going to play a bigger part in the game.
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Posted By: Zangi
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 21:30
I'll judge that when I get someone set-up to make the Kobold horde... Month or 3 down the line. Many Orc candidates out there... :P
Also when I start needing more gold then I do resources...
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Posted By: col0005
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 01:09
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yeah totally have to agree. at 1% then 10,000 basic production (about max for 5 fully upgraded farms) will only be exchanging 100 gold for 100 of one basic resource
sov should be something that all largish players should be fighting for control over, not something that only provides good market exchange rates for the fully advanced players
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Posted By: Steve44
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 16:30
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I agree,i,ve got 1 now but don,t think i,ll bother with anymore as like it,s been said the cost in gold ph doesn,t justify what you get back in return.
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Posted By: Laccy
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2010 at 10:12
Posted By: lokifeyson
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2010 at 18:10
the trick is to look for the rare ones that have a 15-20 on resources with a farm land next to it, then hope it has some other squares around the farm that also have a %bonus on something you might like, then settle a town there
that in itself makes it more useful to bigger players and if multiple bigger hostile players are next to that one, they will fight for it......right?
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Posted By: Akita
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2010 at 16:25
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Guys, guys, you're not seeing the full big picture here. Thanks to the way bonuses work, the use of sov resource squares is extremely important for cities WITH VERY HIGH TAX RATES. Let me explain. For instance, your city might have 5x L14 farmyards and a L12 flourmill and you have, say, Gift of Nourishment active on the city, and it's summer. The base production is 2860 food, and you have so far a bonus of +32% (24 mill, 5 spell, 3 summer). With 0% tax rate, your actual food production is boosted another 25% up to +57%, so you get 4490 food. With the 25% default tax rate, no additional bonus granted, you get 3775 food. With 100% tax rate, a -75% penalty bringing you down to 57% of base, so you get 1630 food. Now, enter a dolmen with 15 food somewhere nearby, and you build it up to L5, so you get 15% from there (for a measly 50 RP if you placed the city right beside it). All of a sudden, the numbers from above become: 0% tax rate, effective bonus +72%, or 4919 food ; 25% tax rate, effective bonus +47%, or 4204 food ; 100% tax rate, effective bonus -38%, or 2059 food. In all cases, you effectively get a flat +429 food (15% of base) added onto the previous numbers REGARDLESS OF TAX RATE.
EDIT//NOTE : One food *used* at 0% tax rate translates into 4 gold at 100% tax rate. So that 429 extra food could translate into as much as 1716 extra gold, and you "only" pay 500 gold for it (plus the RP, which would be worth another 12.5 gold plus whatever the extra materials might be worth to you if imported in book form).
A similar logic applies to all other resources too. Later on in the game, you can keep importing a small amount of books from book-production-centric smaller cities with moderate tax rates (decent RP production) to maintain the needed RPs for sov, and ramp up tax rates sky-high in your main city, allowing you to maintain an insanely strong military force (think ~50k basic ranged or ~13k heavy cavalry) without the need to constantly ship anything else in, let alone the massive amounts of either gold or food the city would otherwise need.
But yeah, the bonuses could stand to be a bit higher. I suppose slightly pre-nerfed and adjusted to be better later on is more desirable than decent early but totally overpowered in later stages and in dire need of a readjustment by the time people have been working up to a setup with those bonuses in mind over weeks or months.
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Posted By: Akita
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2010 at 16:37
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In other words, yeah, building sov resource structures on regular squares is mostly pointless, and it's only on above-average special squares where you get the best out of it. This makes those few good spots more valuable (and more fought-for), and if you manage to find a concentration of good dolmens and other interesting stuff nearby (like, say, unit production bonus squares), you can almost guarantee there will be some pretty fierce fighting over it in the future, and more fighting is good for suppliers of weapons. This also means larger players have an incentive to spread out rather than colonize right next to eachother (for easy defense), so combat becomes noticeably more strategic too.
All in all, proper sov usage is highly situational, and it wouldn't be any fun in the long run if you could just use a cookie-cutter build anywhere at random on the map, now would it ?
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Posted By: Vytek
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2010 at 17:00
Sov square costs are as follows. 100 gold 10 rp per level per square distance from city on the vertical and horizontal. so a level 5 sov square 1 square from your city is 500 gold and 50 rp p/hour. factor in the distance and a lvl 5 sov square 2 squares from your city is now 1000 gold 100 rp p/hour. So a sov square at lvl 1 say 8 square from your city is a base 800 gold 80 rp p/hour per lvl of sov.
The diagonal cost is a 1.41 multiplier: so a lvl 1 sov square directly on the diagonol from your city is 141 gold and 14 rp. Ergo: a lvl 5 sov square on the diagonal is 705 gold and 70 rp p/hour.
You do not get any resource bonus from a sov square unless a resource building is built upon it. Blank sov squares with no attendant buildings give you zero bonus's.
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Posted By: Akita
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2010 at 17:58
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One unit of food extra is worth up to 4 gold, since that's the difference between a 0% tax rate and a 100% tax rate income. Of course, the loss of other resource incomes makes it worth in practice much less than that, but in some cases, its practical worth is pretty close to the maximum theoretical 4 gold.
Population: 26985 That's how much food the largest city in the game right now is consuming per hour (or, at least, one of the largest anyway). It's on a 5-food square, but has a city on a 7-food square directly to the East of it. Assuming the 10k base food production quote was accurate for a 5-farmstead city, without prestige, the most he could hope to get out of the city itself is little over 17k food, and that's with 0% tax rate. Even with the prestige bonus, that's still only around 19k food at 0% tax rate... or around 16k with prestige and the default 25% tax rate (giving him almost 27k gold/hour)... or barely over 9k with prestige at max tax rate (giving him roughly 108k gold/hour). There are also advantages to producing food "locally", namely the fact you don't need to constantly ferry it in, and you're not susceptible to production breaks in case the stockpiles run out after a micro-vacation.
For such a player city, the value of a 20-food dolmen would be roughly equivalent to 8000 gold/hour. You still break-even with it even if you claim it at 16 squares away.
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Posted By: Vytek
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2010 at 19:23
Was not disputing anything. Just giving correct Sov square costs for claiming.
Though 8000 gold is 8000 T1 units ( or an equivalent gold amount divided by gold maint. cost of similar T1/T2 units ) and the loss of that many troops for defense/offense makes having a 20 food dolmen at 16 squares not worth it to me at least. A couple sov squares at 1 distance from a city can be maintained reasonably to me.
Having a 25k city you must run at 0%- 25% taxes and deplete units from other cities in order to maintain a reasonable defense looks to be unviable. Could be just me. Then I am an Orc and 100% taxes and the most units I can field is viable to me :).
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Posted By: KillerPoodle
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2010 at 23:36
Not enough people are close to a +15 food square for that argument to
hold water. Most of us are making do with the standard 5% bonus from a
normal square.
The numbers seem about right for larger cities (10K+) but the cost
benefit for normal squares is pretty poor for smaller players/cities.
I would support, for example, a sliding scale on the bonuses (or the gold cost) to make it cheaper for smaller cities to use sov or to make the bonuses bigger for smaller cities.
That way the larger guys keep what they have built already and aren't made overpowered but the smaller players/cities can also benefit.
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Posted By: Jargas
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2010 at 05:25
Vytek wrote:
Having a 25k city you must run at 0%- 25% taxes and deplete units from other cities in order to maintain a reasonable defense looks to be unviable. Could be just me. Then I am an Orc and 100% taxes and the most units I can field is viable to me :).
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wow, a Orc being articulate......amazing!
Seriously though, this is my take on the matter as well. You either need to be a lot richer than I am to make sov's profitable, or you need to simply choose between farmer and warrior. I don't like the latter reasoning at all. I look forward to giving Sovereignty, another try when I am a little bigger and more aware of what I'm doing.
Regards, Jargas
------------- Jargas Bargnothaltros
Officer of Dark Blight
Resident of The Underdark
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Posted By: lokifeyson
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2010 at 05:49
Akita wrote:
This also means larger players have an incentive to spread out rather than colonize right next to eachother (for easy defense), so combat becomes noticeably more strategic too.
All in all, proper sov usage is highly situational, and it wouldn't be any fun in the long run if you could just use a cookie-cutter build anywhere at random on the map, now would it ? |
so I was mostly correct then? lol 
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Posted By: col0005
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2010 at 06:03
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I'm not argueing that some tiles shouldn't be noticably more valuable than others. However if your going to use the argument that valuable tiles will increase fighting and therefore improve gameplay it needs to be noted that at 5 tiles away no square is worth fighting for. The cost for distance factor should be greatly reduced otherwise players will need to make a conciouse decision to contest a tile and make a full committment to that contest due to the close proximity ofthe enemy city
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Posted By: Jargas
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2010 at 06:27
Well put col, I agree. I'm glad this is being discussed. I was playing around with it earlier and it seems way too expensive. Even for such a valuable idea.
Does it really seem reasonable to charge the distance fee, when the cost to claim sov's I-IV, as well as the increasing building I-IV costs?
Earlier I shrugged it off. Thinking it just me being new and not rich enough yet. Yet I still have doubts that it is worth it.
------------- Jargas Bargnothaltros
Officer of Dark Blight
Resident of The Underdark
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Posted By: KarL Aegis
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 02:49
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It seems sovereignty is just an excuse to crush the peasants under massive taxes.
No mercy for the worthless peons you rule over! they don't deserve to buy food!
Wait... is sov making us into communists? Red Scare gogo.
------------- I am not amused.
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Posted By: gigi
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2010 at 17:00
Sov is a waste unless you boost cow production. I boosted it 100% and cows come out every 3m 30 sec compared to 7m on a L20 common gr. Last 15% gave 19 sec improvement. First 15% gave 1m or so. So the more you boost the less you gain - a complete waste of res. It was costing me 5K per res to maintain from 8 tiles (max sov level was 3).
If you want to boost res, just built another farm city...
My conclusion is to boost only cows, better send the resources to another city and upgrade the same building as it is a one off cost compared to slow bleeding from sov...
Probably use it to boost unit production in time of war... Again it takes gold so it may block your army, too... Too jiggly for me thank you.
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Posted By: lokifeyson
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 00:46
For such a player city, the value of a 20-food dolmen would be roughly
equivalent to 8000 gold/hour. You still break-even with it even if you
claim it at 16 squares away. |
that is why it is worth it to me....
Heck to a Merchant or Trader all the Sov's you can get the better
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