War Avoidance Game
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: Miscellaneous
Forum Name: The Caravanserai
Forum Description: A place to just chat about whatever takes your fancy, whether it's about Illyriad or not.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=6871
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 06:29 Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: War Avoidance Game
Posted By: ajqtrz
Subject: War Avoidance Game
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 15:45
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It has been claimed that Illyriad is a war game. Those who make the claim point to the ability
of a player to build armies and attack other players as the core function of
the game and thus, since it is at the core of the game, it must be that the
game is a "war game." I
disagree for the following reasons.
First, a true war game, in my opinion, forces any player in
the game to engage in warfare by either defining "winning" as
"winning against other players through combat" or making it
impossible to "win" without engaging in combat against other players. Not "impossible" as in "it
doesn't happen, ever" but in " if you don't engage the game will not
let you reach the goal it calls 'winning'."
Imagine a game in which the only way to win is to take
something from your opponent against their will by using imaginary armies and
you get the picture. It's the necessity
of the use of armies that makes it a war game.
Illyriad is not a war game by this definition for two reasons: first, as
I have repeatedly argued, any war which is started is done by the choice of at
least one side and is only necessary if at least one side has to chosen to go
to war. If no one chooses to do so then
the game can be played entirely without warfare between players. Second, since there is no stated win
condition, the declaration that you have "won" because you have
warred against another and prevailed, is merely a convention, and thus, somewhat
subjective.
Another line of reasoning which shows that Illyriad is not a
war game, is that, overall, the players of Illyriad, almost never go to
war. If it were a war game there would
be by necessity a lot more wars. But
since wars are relatively few in Illyriad and most of them end without a clear
cut "winner," if it is, strictly speaking a, "war game" it
is a pretty weak one at best. That can
be said because definitions do matter. If
you were to, for instance, claim that you were producing a "race
game" but only a few of those actually playing it were actually racing, you would have to expand the definition
of a "race game" or come up with a better classification, one which
included whatever other things the non-racing players were doing. In Illyriad, except on relatively rare occasions
players and alliances avoid wars and even when they do engage, after the war
ends, they pretty much remain as they were before the war started, except perhaps with some
restrictions on one side or the other.
Thus, not only are they not forced to go to war, war seldom has a long
term effect on the direction of the game. (There are exceptions, of course.)
Thus, the design of the game does not force it into the
category of "war game" nor do most players actually play the game as
a war game. From these two lines of
reasoning I would like to offer the following as a definition of what Illyriad
is.
Illyriad is a "Empire Building"
game in which avoiding war is usually the better long-term strategy. You might even call it a "War Avoidance
Empire Building Game" -- which is a mouthful, to say the least. In any case, It makes perfect sense to call
it that as most players do go out of their way to avoid war, and, given the
high cost of making war, the very structure of the game makes war something to
be avoided if you wish to grow and survive long term.
There are several things about Illyriad which make it a natural
fit as a "war avoidance" game.
First, it is slow paced, and thus wars can, and do cost a
lot of player time. Most players have
the goal of building their empire and unless they are large enough to actually
take on another alliance, which most are not, they want to focus their time and
energy on building, not using resources to destroy and be destroyed.
Second, war is extremely expensive. It may take months or even years to build a
complete city and to have it destroyed in a matter of a couple days inhibits
one's willingness to risk a war. Most
players exhibit the desire to avoid war by either staying out of whatever
conflicts arise, no matter how serious the infringement, or by only going to
war against those smaller than themselves or at least over which they have some distinct
advantage, clustering, organizational strength, experience, etc.. In other words, most players do not
engage in war unless they are fairly certain they have a good chance of
winning. There are exceptions, of
course, but here we are generalizing.
Third, some players are just opposed to war as a strategy of
empire building. Taking from others what
they have spent months and years building, without reasonable provocation, to
those of us who are not warrior types, seems to be more akin to the law of the
jungle than a civilized exercise in friendly competition. There are, of course those who view the
game from a Darwinian perspective, but overall most players want to have fun
and fun to most does not mean engaging in personal vendettas and other
uncivilized behaviors. It's ironic that those who do such things are
the very ones who try to say "it's just a game." If so, one has to wonder why verbal and/or
battlefield defeats so often end up causing players to waste time and energy on
exacting revenge. Avatars have no
feelings, players do. But I
digress. The point is, there are players
who wish to force Illyriad into the "war game" mold, but the
structure of the game itself makes it difficult at best, and the players make
it nearly impossible.
So in the end there are good reasons for calling Illyriad an
Empire Building game where war avoidance is the
predominant and most successful strategy employed, a "Empire Building, War Avoidance" game.
AJ
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Replies:
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 18:25
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I think Illy can be played as a war game or a war avoidance game. While I appreciate the effort to further describe Illy's non-war aspect, I don't think it's all that productive to try to fit Illyriad in a particular mold.
Illy is what we make it, on an individual basis and as a social construction.
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Posted By: Hyrdmoth
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 19:36
Rill wrote:
Illy is what we make it, on an individual basis and as a social construction. | I agree with this. Illyriad is a sandbox, and thus one can choose to play in any way that you wish, within the constraints placed upon you by the in-game actions coded for by the developers.
War naturally occurs when your personal goals come into conflict with those of others.
I agree that the lack of a winning condition, as exists in most other similar games, reduces the impetus for war, as do various game design choices that make war expensive, and rarely profitable. Though, consider, waging wars bankrupted many a medieval monarch, and lost a few of them their lives. What could be more expensive? Yet those centuries were rarely without war.
This is because war is the ultimate way to ensure that your personal goals take precedence over someone else's.
I think that this, in some respects, makes Illyriad a realistic political-economy game, and as the saying goes, "war is politics by other means," so while Illyriad is not merely a war game, it is certainly a game with war in it.
Characterising it as a "war avoidance" game would therefore be inaccurate in my view.
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Posted By: Sargon
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 20:59
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Your own definition ajqtrz, read in the traditional way, puts Illyriad in he genus of war games with the difference that here war is somewhat limited and avoided. I guess it boils down to the typical problem that a genus and a species below it have the same name, nothing that is likely to be changed...
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Posted By: Dungshoveleux
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 21:24
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It is an empire building harvesting crafting trading diplomatic war game. It's all those rolled into one like a grand unified theory of everything (except the stuff with no known use).
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Posted By: Jejune
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 21:48
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I don't know if I'd term it a "War Avoidance Game." From a marketer's perspective, that's a nightmare tagline.
But this is definitely a game where war is largely avoided. And I think that for all the reasons listed, it makes sense, because although the warfare mechanics in Illyriad are complex and interesting, war itself is a bit cumbersome. So, there are checks and balances built into the fabric of the game that make going to war quickly and/or often rather prohibitive.
That being said, you can also argue that maybe there isn't enough war, and because of this, it has perpetuated large server wars that exponentially more damaging than simply two alliances duking it out. Big players tend to keep building troops until they reach a critical mass where they are desperate to try and get value for them. This becomes the impetus for big wars sometimes. Tourneys can help, but to date they have been few and far between.
------------- https://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/394156" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: palmz
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 22:13
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War is merely a diplomaitc tool, the least effective one.
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Posted By: jtk310
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2016 at 16:33
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I think the devs have been clear that this is a strategy game: "Illyriad is a browser-based massively multiplayer online real-time strategy game (MMORTS)." Like most strategy games, there are multiple methods of play. I know people have said this is a 'war game', but I think that is more a shorthand for this style of MMORTS games, many of which contain a fighting element. It's a strategy game, so both war and avoidance of war are valid strategies depending on the desired outcome. Is MMORTS not a sufficient description? I believe we can all agree that this fits much better than either 'war game' or 'war avoidance game'. I will say that if when I had signed up for the site it had said "A grand war avoidance game!" I almost certainly wouldn't have played. This description of the game is the first thing in the FAQ. Let's just call a spade a spade.
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Posted By: asr
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2016 at 12:27
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Your attack and defence power will determine who is the winner - lets name it "big player".
Smaller player don't have any winning change over big player. That means there isn't game built system what would allow you to take down bigger player. So only way is alliances. But general way of the games is that alliance will be like a single "big player", smaller alliances can't win a alliance what is better in defence and attack.
My point is that its a military game where that trait can wipe you off the map, you may have other stats high like doing quests, killing NPC, mysteries, etc these things are like minigames inside a military only game.
Unless you play like a human. You have military power but you choose to let others play, but then you may be a good player but there will be a players who don't give a ... and destroy you.
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Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2016 at 12:41
I think you missed the boat again. Before the current SIN vs Shark/ VIC / Unibrow war SIN was a tiny alliance compared to them. David took down Goliath easily. Small alliances and players can totally destroy the big boys. Its not the size that matters but how you use it that makes the difference.
------------- Kaggen is my human half
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Posted By: asr
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2016 at 16:41
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I get it. When you have lesser buttons in checkers you still can win because you know more and do no mistakes. 1K hours playtime will have more indepth game knowledge than a 100 hours player but with using brains(learning game) and having welldefined goal you can grow faster and destroy oldies.
There is also other way to take down a cycloph. Hide behind lambs and when giant is sleeping, just poke his eye out.
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Posted By: Skybreaker
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2016 at 17:42
Gragnog wrote:
I think you missed the boat again. Before the current SIN vs Shark/ VIC / Unibrow war SIN was a tiny alliance compared to them. David took down Goliath easily. Small alliances and players can totally destroy the big boys. Its not the size that matters but how you use it that makes the difference. |
While i do agree with this, its also worth mentioning that SIN contains quite a few vets with more experiences that most
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Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2016 at 01:37
Skybreaker wrote:
Gragnog wrote:
I think you missed the boat again. Before the current SIN vs Shark/ VIC / Unibrow war SIN was a tiny alliance compared to them. David took down Goliath easily. Small alliances and players can totally destroy the big boys. Its not the size that matters but how you use it that makes the difference. |
While i do agree with this, its also worth mentioning that SIN contains quite a few vets with more experiences that most | i would have said that was Gragnog's point.
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2016 at 01:43
I do think some of the points made are pretty good. But in the end, "the proof is in the pudding." Most players don't go to war, especially the smaller ones, and most avoid it with some success. And many of those who end up in war, due to either their personality, actions, or the re-actions of others, are often forced into wars of which they wish to have no part.
It would be an interesting thing to simply ask players how many wars they have entered into where both parties were there because they just wanted to have some fun and making war was their mutual way of doing so. And then to compare that number to how many they have engaged in for other reasons. In any case, I'd be willing to bet the majority of wars are not mutually shared fun experiences, and from that I must conclude that most players, because they want to have fun, (and war, to them is not fun), really play Illy as a "war avoidance" game.
AJ
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Posted By: Sun Tzu
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2016 at 02:10
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so then why is HIGH still at war with BB?
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2016 at 02:26
Sun Tzu wrote:
so then why is HIGH still at war with BB? |
Because they haven't surrendered? LOL
Because I'm not in HIGH?
Because once you are forced to war you fight until you win?
But of course, the question isn't really relevant to this as it's just an observation on my situation and that really doesn't have any bearing on the ideas put forth above, now does it?
AJ
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Posted By: Sun Tzu
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2016 at 02:45
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if youre not in HIGH then who are the members/now member in HIGH? and why are they/him at war with BB? its all relevant.
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Posted By: Hyrdmoth
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2016 at 10:26
ajqtrz wrote:
It would be an interesting thing to simply ask players how many wars they have entered into where both parties were there because they just wanted to have some fun and making war was their mutual way of doing so. And then to compare that number to how many they have engaged in for other reasons. In any case, I'd be willing to bet the majority of wars are not mutually shared fun experiences, and from that I must conclude that most players, because they want to have fun, (and war, to them is not fun), really play Illy as a "war avoidance" game. | You have set up what I see as a false dichotomy.
Player A defines Illyriad as being fun by achieving objective Alpha. Player B does likewise with objective Beta. Objectives Alpha and Beta are contradictory, so Player A and B come into conflict that will result in war if diplomacy fails.
In the case of war, neither Player A or B are engaging in a "mutually shared fun experience", since war was not their objective, but war has become necessary to achieve their objectives. Ultimately it will resolve the conflict between their contradictory objectives.
This is why I used the quote, "war is politics by other means", and why I think that war is an integral part of Illyriad, without being the only part of Illyriad. Thus Illyriad is neither a war game, or a war avoidance game, but a game in which there is, necessarily, war.
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 09 May 2016 at 23:58
Hyrdmoth. Good observation. It is, as you correctly say, I think, a false dichotomy. But it is also a matter of probability. A false dichotomy is false because it does not include all the options. You correctly showed that it would be possible for their to be a war in which both sides are reluctant. I'll give you that. But like all such divisions, each possible outcome has a probability attached to it. In my opinion the situations where: 1) both sides are pursuing mutually exclusive goals; and 2) neither side is unwilling to compromise enough to satisfy the other and resolve the issue through diplomacy, are a pretty small sub-set of the total conflicts.
Perhaps it is also true that diplomacy is the method by which most wars are avoided. Thus, to lack the willingness to compromise is to "loose" the "war avoidance" game and be forced therefore, into the "war game." What I would like to see is a way that those who wish to avoid war can do so without also becoming 2nd class citizens of Illy or having to do things which unnecessarily detour them keep them from achieving their goals.
AJ
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 00:03
Angrim wrote:
Skybreaker wrote:
Gragnog wrote:
I think you missed the boat again. Before the current SIN vs Shark/ VIC / Unibrow war SIN was a tiny alliance compared to them. David took down Goliath easily. Small alliances and players can totally destroy the big boys. Its not the size that matters but how you use it that makes the difference. |
While i do agree with this, its also worth mentioning that SIN contains quite a few vets with more experiences that most | i would have said that was Gragnog's point. |
Not to be too complicated, but "ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL" does mean having the same level of experience and commitment. The "big verses small" question is one of resources available, not experience and capability. That SIN is a well run and in many way superior fighting alliance than many others, I have no problem admitting, nor should any other person in Illy. But most of us do not have the experience of some SIN members and most of us are not run in the same manner. Thus, most of us are wise to play the game as a war avoidance game, don't you think?
AJ
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