Moral Development
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Topic: Moral Development
Posted By: ajqtrz
Subject: Moral Development
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2016 at 18:22
[Warning: this post is LONG and complex. Please recognize that the subject is not something which I or anyone else, can cover in a paragraph and therefore, it would be best, if you are interested in this topic, for you to grab a cup of your favorite beverage, get comfortable and have a bit of time to read and ponder the following 2 part post. The first part is a review of Kolberg's Levels of Moral Development and the second is a review of my own theories. In neither part do I attempt to "prove" the validity of the thoughts and in fact, would think that each perspective may just be a way to organize observations. --aj]
Kolberg's Moral Stages
Lawrence Kolberg thought that Piaget's theory of moral
development could be improved and tested.
So, using the story telling techniques of Piaget, he tested 72 boys
every three years of a number of years, each time using ten stories that
presented a moral dilemma. From his
research he mapped six stages of moral development, organized into three
groups, He argued that as people develop
they pass through each stage, however, that people may also get to one stage
and fail to develop any further. The
idea that our morals change is, to me, a fascinating one. Why they change is an even more fascinating
question, but also one Kolberg didn't address.
First, some of what
Kolberg said.
In 1977, Kolberg describes moral development by saying:
"Moral development, as initially defined by Piaget and
then refined and researched by Kolberg, does not simply represent and
increasing knowledge of culture al values usually leading to ethical
relativity. Rather, it represents the transformations that occur in a persons form
or structure of thought. The content of
values varies from culture to culture; hence the study of cultural values
cannot tell us how a person interacts with his social environment, or how a
person goes about solving problems related to his/her social world. This requires the analysis of developing
structures of moral judgment, which are found to be universal in a
developmental sequence across cultures." Moral Development: A Review of
the Theory, Lawrence
Kolberg, Richard H. Hersh, Theory into
Practice, vol 16. No 2. "Moral Development" (April 1977). p.54
Thus, the study of moral development is not a study of what
should be or should not be done, but of the stages of development people go
though as they live and how each of those stages approaches moral
questions. It is not the logical basis
for a moral choice that is being examined, but the types of choices being made
and bases for that class of choices.
Each stage represents a different matrix of choice and is not
necessarily a progressive (meaning somehow "an improvement" over a
previous stage).
Kolberg describes the three general stages, each having to
sub-stages, as each including three characteristics.
First, each stage is complete in itself with it's own logic
and a person in that stage will consistently follow that logic in making moral
choices.
Second, each stage is moved through the by the person and
unless the person experiences severe trauma, not stage is skipped nor do people
move back to a previous stage. The
stages are one way progressive.
And finally, the structure of moral choice made in one stage
is carried to the next and is comprehended by the next as moral thinking and
decisions incorporate earlier stages and become more sophisticated.
Kolberg is a bit difficult to understand in describing the
third stage as it would appear that he is saying that the higher stages are,
indeed, to be preferred to the lower.
But logically to say a more sophisticated and nuanced understanding of
moral choices is preferred to less complex views of a moral dilemma one has to first have a belief that greater
sophistication is better than less sophistication...a moral view in
itself. I do think the weight of
evidence is that a more nuanced and sophisticated approach makes for more
satisfactory choice ...satisfactory to the one making the choice anyway. But that does not, I think, require an
acknowledgement that the higher stages are always better at ferreting out the
"right" choice.
In any case, here are the six stages.
Stage 1
Preconventional Level
This is the level of moral development where the child
(Kolberg worked with children for the most part) understands there is right and
there is wrong, but sees those categories strongly linked to punishment and
reward. This is the initial linking of
actions and consequences and the child makes moral decisions based on their
perception of what the consequences were or are for an action. Like each of the three stages,
preconventional level is divided into two sub-levels.
The first stage is the obedience punishment/reward
understanding. At this stage the child
perceives right and wrong as directly linked to the level of punishment or
obedience. There is no conception of any
moral code, human value or independent cognitive system, but only of the anticipation
of punishment or reward, with avoiding
punishment and gaining reward the total motivation.
The second stage works at the negotiation level as the child
learns to judge moral choices as a means to an end. Here ideas of fairness, sharing and reciprocity
enter into the moral choices as the child begins to negotiate his or her social
environment. This sense of right and
wrong has little to no bases in theoretical ideas, but is derived by necessity
from the need to negotiate with other human beings.
Conventional Level
This level continues and adds to the Preconventional Level,
incorporating the lessons learned there and expanding them to include the moral
perspectives of their environment. As
the child grows he or she begins to take on the moral and ethical assumptions of
their social environment. Authority is
now valued as authority, rather than as just that which grants rewards or
punishments. A theoretical frame work
develops by which a social matrix of right and wrong are adopted in response to
previous experience with discipline and rewards.
The lowest stage of this level involves the child
strengthening links to others by engaging in behaviors which are
"good" or "bad" in the eyes of those around them. This focus on identification of the self as a
"good" or "bad" and
learning to be perceived as "good" increases the ratio of reward to
punishment and is thus a pragmatic movement.
It also reinforces the various moral judgments of society as they are
rewarded and decreases deviation from those norms.
The next stage of this level results in a process by which
the learned values become rigid. It is
during this stage that the child becomes more certain of what is right and
wrong and displays a more moral rigid code than at any other point in his or
her development. It is for good reason
this stage is often labeled the "law and order" stage.
Post Conventional Level (also called the Autonomous or
Principled)
This is the level of moral development where the child or
young adult (although, strictly speaking the designations "child" and
"young adult" are only normative and not absolute descriptors),
examines and reexamines his or her moral underpinnings and determines what he
or she really thinks or senses to be right or wrong. Authority becomes less an authority, and the
current culture's views come under closer scrutiny.
The first stage of this third level is a legalist or social
contract stage. In this stage a
determination is made to understand how the general morals of society have come
into being and how the individual moral values may vary. Focus is upon how the process by which moral
values are negotiated between individuals and groups with an understanding that
those processes can be used to change the way the group operates.
The second stage focuses upon discovering the internal
principles by which the person determines right or wrong. This stage focuses upon the universal and
abstract concept of morality and attempts a more systematic, logical, and
consistent approach. At this stage moral
statements like the Golden Rule, the Ten Commandments and the categorical
imperative are either replaced by an internal set of convictions or at least
incorporated into a larger and broader theoretical framework.
Finally, we each have a sense of right and wrong. We each are moving along a course of moral
development, but should not take too seriously the idea that the later stages
are somehow "better" than the former, for that, is itself, a moral
judgment. What we should ask ourselves
is if the later stages are not more pragmatically able to handle the complex
moral decisions we need to make.
AJ
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Replies:
Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2016 at 18:25
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[Continuation of the above]
My own take on moral development follows similar lines, but
stretches the time line from childhood to about twenty, the time line which
Kolberg used, to a full life. I too
divide moral development into three basic levels and note how the previous level
is incorporated and enhanced by the previous.
My own thinking is very much influenced by Kolberg, but comes at the
whole thing from a more historical - philosophical perspective.
My levels begin with the emotive-expressive level present in
children from about 2 to 7 The
characteristics of the emotive-expressive level are a strong expression of
shame when confronted with being "bad," a desire to be loved and thus
to be obedient as a form of earning love, and a belief in the magic of
expressing oneself love toward the parent or, in the later level, the teacher. As the child develops he or she becomes more
and more to believe that the ideas of right and wrong are true and
absolute. Expressions of surprise when
parents or teachers do not do as the child understands should be done are
common and the child seeks stability and safety if the moral choices of the
parents and older siblings become inconsistent.
This may drive the child into a survival mode mentality and isolation.
When the child enters into extended contact with other
children in the school environment he or she begins to transfer his or her
focus from the parents to teacher often pitting the perceived moral attitudes
of the parents against the teachers.
Depending on which environment is more stable and comforting the child's
loyalties or moral alignment may shift from the parents to the school, though
the shift is seldom permanent and never complete at this age. In any case, the child, in response to mixed
messages, begins the long process of realizing that morals are not absolute, at
least that while they may be absolute people don't always have the same ideas
about them. Team sports are one example
as some coaches have a "win at any cost" while others follow
"every kid has a chance to be a star" philosophy.
In the confusion of all this the child develops a sort of
fairness ideal. To the child all rules
should be rules for everybody, and all people should be treated in accordance
to their station in life...meaning that if the society is egalitarian then all
rules should be applied equally, and if the society is more class based, that a
person should be treated according to his or her class. "Fairness" is being treated as you
should be treated. It is at the end of
this level that the child begins to struggle with the idea that things are not
fair and that people do not act morally.
The second level begins around eight, and is called the social-emotive
stage. It continues and never fades
though by about twenty the third level has made it's appearance. This level incorporates Kolberg's second level
as well as the first half of his third level. In this level the child/young
adult, transforms his or here moral processing form the mimicry of authority
to, the influence of his or her peers.
It is not an absolute thing but layered upon the moral structures of
right and wrong delivered to him or her from his or her parents and from his or
her early educational experiences. As
the child enters the social world the first thing he or she learns is that the
moral underpinnings of his or her life are not shared by all peoples. In response the child, probably in an attempt
to find stability, seeks to find a more rigid senses of right and wrong. At the beginning of this process the child
will adopt strict rules of right and wrong and begins to express to others the
need to live up to these ideals. It is
said that at age nine a person has the clearest idea of what right and wrong
is, and the most passionate expression of it.
As the child experiences that moral choices are not black
and white, and that he or she cannot readily influence others choices, many
children layer their decisions based upon the idea that one person is a
"bad" person and another a "good" person. This classification is based upon their
experience and with the labeling often done by their peers. It is at this level, between nine and fourteen
that social alignment comes about with loyalties to the group and it's moral
stance taking more and more precedence over what may have been taught at an
earlier age. In an effort to "fit
in" the child finds comfort and stability in the shared moral stance of
his or her peers and adopts expressions of that stance as a form of
identity. Commonly called "peer
pressure" this social-emotive level peaks at around thirteen to fifteen
and then begins to wane as the child matures.
This identification with his or her peers is not surprising
as the child spend more and more time away from home but still finds a need for
inclusion and comfort. At the same time
the child is developing an "ideal self" within to which or she always
falls short. This development of an
"ideal self" coincides with the alignment of the moral code with his
or her peers and thus, the child may change how the "ideal self" in
accordance with the moral vision several times in the course of development. Here is where the idea of the ideal gender
identification takes hold and the movement of the child into puberty includes a
growing incorporation of the groups vision of the ideal person. Boys traditionally begin to enact the vision
they had delivered to them as a youngster...that of a 'manly man'...while girls
are more influenced by the general ideas of the 'girly girl." This is also where gender confusion peaks as
some boys often find they are not attracted to or cannot enact the moral vision
of being the "manly man" and some girls are not particularly fond of or
able to enact that of being "girly girls." The tension between the normative social
vision and the inner senses may drive the conflicted child into psychological
distress, and/or it may begin the process by which the child separates himself
or herself from social-sexual vision of his or her peers, moves from that group
to one which is more accepting of his or her gender identity, is actually
aligned with it, or learns to adapt to the socially normative vision. In any case, the moral development at this level
is a tension between the inner moral vision of the individual and the
social-emotive vision of his or her peers layered over the emotive-expressive concepts
of earlier childhood.
The moral development of the child continues to move away
from a strictly social-emotive perspective into a more mature version as time
passes. At about fourteen or fifteen the
child reaches the peak of peer influence of social choices, and after that
begins to develop what will be their adult perspective.
From age fourteen to twenty or so, the young person focuses
on the "ideal self" and moral choices become more and more about what
he or she senses is right or wrong for him or herself. The social-emotive values picked up from his
or social group or groups, transition into a the third level, the intellectual-emotive. It is at this period that individuals begin
to separate themselves and personality traits begin to influence the growth or
restriction of a persons moral development.
For moral development one of the forums of intelligence and it should
not surprise anyone that some persons do not develop past a certain moral development
level. This is not a judgment that they
are wrong for not developing a more complex moral vision, but in fact, only an
observation that, just as some persons cannot proceed past basic math into
Algebra, Geometry, Calculus and so on, so too, there is a quotient of moral development
as well.
In any case, those of sufficient moral quotient, internalize,
process and adopt basic moral stances at this stage and their moral character
is pretty much set for the rest of his or her life. This is the beginning of the third level of
moral development, though it does not come into full force until much later. In any case at the end of the second level of the socio-emotive stage commitments
to religion, philosophy, politics and every other sort of long term alignment,
are made, often in response to what was learned in the first half of the
social-emotive level rather than any systematic thought about such matters. Most people in this time period absorb ideas
and assumptions without much question and the search for moral absolutes falls
by the wayside under the more pragmatic needs to "fit in" and
"get along." In this period
the young person adopts positions out of a sense of need more than any thing
else. As the young person is exposed to
more and more ideas he or she often "tries out" one moral stance or
another and if one or the other meets the need, so be it. The difference between this person and the
earlier time period where peer pressure is at it's peak, is that the person in
the latter half of the second level is not adopting his or her moral stance to
"fit in" so much as to "live up to" his or her ideal self.
This idea of an "ideal self" is a development
which strengthens as the young person moves from the social-emotive stage into
the ideational-emotive stage, marks the advent of adult conception of
morals. Just as in Kolberg the child
moves from "effects" to "acceptence" to
"independence" so to the same movement from external measures to
internalization occurs.
So, as the second level continues and the young person
becomes more independent of his or her family and even of his or her peers they
also may begin to build a moral foundation built upon more intellectual
ideas. From about sixteen to twenty if a
young person is of a certain personality he or she will continue to expand
their moral vision to that of not only their family, school, friends and
society, but also explore the intellectual vision of thinkers from history. This, intellectual moral vision, will, in
time, come to dominate as the person configures their ideal self out of
personal experiences and the previous experiences of other writers and
thinkers. This is the transition into
the third, ideational-emotive level. In
a way they then become influenced by the general cultural direction across a
temporal vision that may be decades, centuries or even millennium wide. One of the characteristics of this level may
be a growing conviction that his or her moral vision is superior to most
others. As the individual builds his or
her base of knowledge and experience, he or she may feel that he or she has
"done away with" the ideas believed at an earlier level because he or
she has found a different explanation for the actions of the individuals or
groups. This tendency to throw out
earlier beliefs as inferior (because the new knowledge purports to 'explain' why
the mistakes in belief in the past, usually by a "scientific" socio-psychological
explanation), can often lead the person toward a feeling of moral superiority by mistaking intellectual superiority for moral
superiority. And it is at the opening stage
of the third level which many intelligent persons come to rest.
In any case, as they discover that other moral visions are
in competition with their own and begin to sort out the underlying principles
of what it means to be a moral person, if they continue to develop the also
begin to understand the limits of their own intelligence. It is hard sloughing at this point as
psychologically it is impossible to have faith in anything if you don't have
faith in yourself, and we generally want to have the most faith in ourselves. In other words, you must think you are sane
before you can think the things you think are sane. The final development of a moral stance is a
lifelong affair that sometimes includes doubt, faith, uncertainty, and most of
all a realization that, as Tolstoy, Silone, Hess, Dostoevsky and many other
writers and thinkers have found, maybe you were better off as a child when you
thought you knew right from wrong and it was all much, much simpler. It is not a "good and perfect gift"
sometimes to be face to face with the limits of your own mind as you find your
own mind may not be fully up to the task of "knowing right from
wrong."
Objections
No doubt you will find a lot of objections to Kolberg and my
own systems of thought on moral development.
I will let you read up on Kolberg and enter the fray of the arguments
that have been going on for many decades now about his theories, and make some
critique of my own of my own outline.
First, it's self serving.
(And you thought I didn't notice).
As a philosopher and intellectual it's pretty easy to simply say: the
smarter you are and the more educated the more moral you become. But if that were true you wouldn't see, as I
have seen, professors running off with students, top level scientists fudging
their numbers, science writers
exaggerating the level of certainty in order to make a story more hard hitting,
top level politicians caught in every manner of sexual and financial
immorality, and religious and atheist leaders both involved in intellectually
and financially defrauding their followers.
I could go on, but I won't. The
overwhelming evidence concludes that smart people are no more moral than less
intelligent ones. I truly wish all there
was to making a moral person out of a barbarian is a bit of education, but I
fear that too often education just hides the barbarian in a nice long robe and
miter that, once dawned, makes the person think they can do no wrong.
But, at the same time, knowledge grows beside the road to
wisdom and is the sustenance we much gather as we travel. It is the seed of wisdom that must be
watered, often by the tears of humility you get when you find you have screwed
up, yet again. A wise person is often
the one who has suffered the most for his mistakes.
Second, it implies that people may suffer from
"arrested" development. This
is true in that most intelligent people never get past the opening stage of the
third level and some not even that far.
I'm reminded of Bunyan's "Pilgrim's Progress" in this. The City of Pride is where most intellectuals reside, and
having had a flat there for most of my life I understand the allure of streets
paved with the gold of self-proclaimed genius.
It may be that it is a blessing to be of middling intelligence because
you begin with an understanding of your limits and can grow quite slowly. And slow intellectual growth and moral
development done in humility, usually produces better results. At least that's what I think.
In summary, both Kolberg's levels and my own incorporate the
idea that there is no going back, and that each successive level incorporates
the one that proceeds it. In Kolberg's
taxonomy there appears to be a strong belief that all children proceed through
each level, while in mine it may be that the vast majority suffer (or are
blessed by) having arrested development.
Finally, it's been a long, one-way discussion of moral
development. If you've actually read
this far I apologize if it was a torturous read. Not much I can do about that. However, it would be interesting to find out
what you think, and especially if you are willing to share, at what level of
either Kolberg's or my own, you envision yourself to be. I know it may be a lot to ask and nobody
should feel obligated to say, but it would be interesting anyway.
As for me, like most intellectuals I'm pretty much stuck at
the end of the first stage of the ideational-emotive level, though I keep
working and do have some hope of pushing on.
AJ
PS If you wish to
read some fiction regarding moral development (as fiction is much more fun to
read that these musings of mine -- though some might think them fiction too.--
I would suggest "Bread and Wind" by Ignazio Silone, "Siddhartha"
by Hermann Hesse, "A Confession"
by Leo Tolstoy (actually this is an auto-biography, so it's not fiction),
and/or "Crime and Punishment" by Fyodor Dostoyevsky. aj
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2016 at 18:55
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I think that Kohlberg's theories of moral development are very much a product of a particular cultural mindset in a specific time period. There are different types of moral reasoning, but suggesting that some are more "advanced" than others, whether in terms of personal maturity or desirability, lacks empirical evidence. If you look for these "stages" of development you will find them; you will also find very young children making judgments that seem to be at an "advanced" stage of moral reasoning.
In addition, you will see many people using different forms of moral reasoning in different situations. So it seems that moral development is not a series of steps but perhaps a set of tools, which may be used differently at different times.
Overall, I find the argument for there being "stages" of moral development less than compelling.
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2016 at 19:13
Here, I think, you run into some problems with what I said verses what you seem to think I said. The idea that there are more "advanced" stages is sort of correct, but the implication that it's better to be "advanced" than not, I think is questionable as it too, is a moral judgment and one which I tried to explicitly avoid. In a culture where hierarchy's are always assumed to be progressive it
is natural to imply the author of the hierarchy thinks the "higher"
levels are better. I tried to describe the pitfalls of the 'higher'
levels so that you could see that they were not necessarily a positive
progression or predictive of a 'higher' moral behaviors. I cannot, of
course, speak for Kolberg.
The problem with the "lack" of evidence that the stages reflect higher levels of maturity or moral development, misses that the point of both systems is try to describe not what is better, but what is observed. My own measures of moral development use language based analysis to ferret out distinctive patterns of expression reflective of a person's core personality and how their morals reflect that personality. In the interest of keeping the posting short I did not include the long and complex history of my own theories which, to be honest, are derived from the examination of texts written by young people six to twenty. I now regret that omission. If I can boil those observations down to a short discussion I'll try to do so for you.
Finally, I would be appreciative of a post as to the "cultural mindset" you envision being the producer of Kolberg's ideas. It's always in good form, I think, to examine the foundations upon which ideas rest.
Nice response, as always.
AJ
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2016 at 19:21
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See for example Gilligan's critique of Kohlberg regarding the effects of gender on his interpretations.
As for the idea of kohlberg characterizing some modes of reasoning as more advanced, his work is rooted in the work of Piaget's theory of cognitive development, and he definitely saw the different types of moral reasoning as being more or less advanced.
If some modes of reasoning are not considered more "advanced" then why are you calling it moral "development." Why not just call it "different ways of moral reasoning"? And if the stages are not developmental, why do you identify them with different ages?
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2016 at 02:56
Good response, Rill. I guess I fell into the terminology out of habit, assuming, as I did, that later stages grow out of earlier ones, thus, as the body "develops" so to the moral decision making processes. Underlying all of that, one supposes, is a belief that more mature reasoning reflects more experience and is therefore better equipped to handle moral questions.
If we take it that there is no "growth" in moral development then the choice of a young person to cheat ought not to be condemned, nor that of an adult thief. If no approach to morality is to be preferred as more advanced than another why preach to anybody what is right or wrong?
Of course there is a difference between moral development and morals, but one is hard pressed to find any reason for preferring one set of morals over another and therefore the decisions you make as a child in the way a child makes those decisions is just as valid as an adults in the way he or she may make them, and if they are not, then....moral development must be at play...or at least a change in how one makes moral choices, with that of an adult somehow more adaptive than that of a child.
I am aware of Kolberg's development of his theories from Piaget's. But it is difficult for me, and an older scholar, to grab the newest thinking and throw out what came before just because it came from "inferior" cultures (which is what we imply when we say .."yes, but those guys...." in response to quoting those guys).
In any case, my own studies are my own and they don't depend on anything but the reading of thousands of children's writings, and listening to them speak for decades and decades. I get along with kids very well, believe it or not, and they do show patterns of moral development in line with expanding experiences, as I said.
Now of course, in my own observations I have used rhetorical categories to ferret out what I think are the patterns so there is certainly a bias in my observations. But it's a bit like wearing a pair of blue tinted glasses. Where them long enough and you begin to believe everything is bluer than it is. You can't remove the glasses of long experience but only try to acknowledge they are there and figure out how to look over or under their rims.
The reason I link them to different ages is because that's what I've observed. As I said, at around 9 years old most people, especially girls, are the most certain they can ever be about right and wrong. The body of the child is developing, and it is only natural to assume that the changes in moral cognition follow the same path toward adulthood. It may be a sleight of hand of course, but most people will remember what the Apostle Paul said, "when I was a child I spoke as a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned as child, but when I became a man I put away the things of a child" I Corinthians 13:11. Perhaps the thought that morals are developed and that children represent "lesser" degrees is as old as the hills.
But you have asked, as usual, some hard hitting questions. I'll ponder them more and think about the whole question of "what are morals anyway?" What fun!
AJ
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2016 at 03:16
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Adult behaviors are not necessarily more adaptive than those of children. In many cases children's behaviors are more resilient, more pro-social, etc. I am not suggesting that children are inherently superior to adults (although that is an interesting conversation); however merely because adults are physically stronger and cognitively more complex, it does not follow that their moral reasoning is therefore flawed in comparison to an adult.
I am not taking the position that children have superior moral reasoning to adults; rather, I am simply saying you are not presenting any evidence to the contrary. The evidence I've seen tends to be anecdotal in nature, e.g. "my niece bit me!"
I have not seen a presentation of a "superior" system of morality based on moral reasoning of children vs. adults. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but simply that I haven't seen it.
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2016 at 18:12
Of course, one of the problems with even measuring "superior" and "inferior" moral procedures is that the measuring rod itself is a moral standard. If you speak to kids about right and wrong they generally appeal to external authorities. As they get older they begin to identify with the larger culture and with their friends...the milieu of their environment, probably out of necessity more than anything, as you say. It is only as they grow older that they begin to stand apart from their friends and society and to judge their social group with an independent assessment. Is it "better" to have more independent thoughts about what is moral and what is not? Is it better to just accept external standards? Or to turn to your social group and decide by what makes you "fit in"? It's not a question of absolutes but of personality and appropriateness, I suppose.
But here's the thing. The "correct" moral process is the one which leads to better results. The "better results" I would argue, would be long term benefits to the social group above short term benefits to you. In other words, to build a stable and effective society the better course would be to take the long view. Children, especially the youngest, are less able to deny instant gratification because they have a temporal limitation. (I would argue that temporal limitations are the cause of poverty, but that is just the first third of my next book and I AM NOT going to fill this forum with that much verbiage...I do have my limits..LOL). Thus, if you think as a child you do not take the long view and while it may be that in some situations that is a good thing, overall it is probably a weaker moral development than a more mature person would make.
But of course, I do begin with a definition of what is moral: the betterment of society in the long run. Maybe that just reflects my own moral perspective and I'm speaking in circles...sigh.
AJ
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2016 at 18:48
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Let's just stop it right here before you start arguing that people are poor because of inferior reasoning skills. Because that's so offensive even I'm going to want to siege you. Not to mention probably out of bounds for the forum.
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2016 at 01:14
Rill wrote:
Let's just stop it right here before you start arguing that people are poor because of inferior reasoning skills. Because that's so offensive even I'm going to want to siege you. Not to mention probably out of bounds for the forum. |
??? People are poor because poverty is the result not of lack of income, but lack of stability in the multi-generational family group. My next book is on the subject. The first third is an analysis of Johnson's "War on Poverty and how Mollie Orshansky's definition of poverty undermined the whole thing before it started (no reflection on Ms Orshansky since nobody else saw the mistake either).
So I'm not arguing poverty is due to poor reasoning. But I do wonder how you got that out of my comments....LOL
AJ
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2016 at 01:16
ajqtrz wrote:
Rill wrote:
Let's just stop it right here before you start arguing that people are poor because of inferior reasoning skills. Because that's so offensive even I'm going to want to siege you. Not to mention probably out of bounds for the forum. |
??? People are poor because poverty is the result not of lack of income, but lack of stability in the multi-generational family group. As I said, my next book is on the subject. The first third is an analysis of Johnson's "War on Poverty and how Mollie Orshansky's definition of poverty undermined the whole thing before it started (no reflection on Ms Orshansky since nobody else saw the mistake either).
So I'm not arguing poverty is due to poor reasoning. Sorry if I implied it.
AJ
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BTW, why would you take offense if I were to make that argument? I don't believe that poverty means the people have less ability to reason and therefore are poor, but what if I did and brought forth solid evidence for my position? Don't you think it a bit of a closed mind to say you would react certain way before the argument was even presented? I know you and you are too sharp to make such commitments before you've heard the evidence (which would be thin to none in this case, I think). So maybe that was bit of "tongue in cheek?"
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2016 at 02:36
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I am offended because there is no such evidence, although people have tried to manufacture a theory of poverty that blames the poor for centuries, so it would not be surprising.
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Posted By: Sun Tzu
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2016 at 01:57
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You pompous son of a.. you want to talk about real life and gaming? If you ever said any of this sh.. to me in real life at a gaming table I would take you outside and beat the living crap out of you. You are offensive, ignorant, and immoral.
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Posted By: asr
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2016 at 11:40
Sun Tzu wrote:
You pompous son of a.. you want to talk about real life and gaming? If you ever said any of this sh.. to me in real life at a gaming table I would take you outside and beat the living crap out of you. You are offensive, ignorant, and immoral. |
What if he is physically stronger than you?
You can do nothing but accept his rules of game and shut up :D
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Posted By: Bobtron
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2016 at 00:01
Sun Tzu wrote:
You pompous son of a.. you want to talk about real life and gaming? If you ever said any of this sh.. to me in real life at a gaming table I would take you outside and beat the living crap out of you. You are offensive, ignorant, and immoral. |
"There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general: (1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction..."
-Sun Tzu
------------- I support the Undying Flame!
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2016 at 18:21
Rill wrote:
I am offended because there is no such evidence, although people have tried to manufacture a theory of poverty that blames the poor for centuries, so it would not be surprising. |
People are sometimes so committed to their position you can bring all the evidence and reasoning to their doorstep you want, but they won't budge. Their loyalty is to be admired, but loyalty to a false ideology or idea is sadly the right thing for the wrong cause.
So some people wish to blame the poor for their poverty. My research tends to say poverty, when measured correctly, is a statement about the environment in which multi-generational families live. It is not, I think, the natural state of people in a stable and peaceful environment.
In any case, one of the premises I start with when I think of morality is that decisions should rest upon as many verifiable facts as possible. That makes me, of course, think that a person with more knowledge and a more open mind to new knowledge will be more committed to his or her moral stance. Moral development, in my case, is the desire and drive to develop good reasons for your stance.
Just a thought.
AJ
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2016 at 20:20
ajqtrz wrote:
People are sometimes so committed to their position you can bring all the evidence and reasoning to their doorstep you want, but they won't budge. |
Segmentation fault on line 557. self.Irony()==NULL in object call Ajqtrz.PotKettle(.color="#000000")
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2016 at 21:23
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Suggesting that you yourself have found evidence is not in itself evidence. It's just words on a page.
I don't think you have any such evidence. I think it's highly likely that you are expressing an opinion that you have then found a set of facts that you believe supports the opinion. As someone who says he has studied logic, rhetoric, etc., you know that this is flawed.
Give it up aj, you are just digging yourself into a hole that you can't dig out of. And I say that as someone who has tried very hard to be a friend.
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2016 at 21:31
I think we've had a missunderstanding here, Rill. I'm not certain of what, in this thread, you think I'm claiming to have evidence for. I've probably said something that implied something else that I've missed, but not sure what the topic is anymore.
I thought we were speaking of the idea that poor people make less rational decisions, a point of view to which I do not subscribe. It's a claim by some, but my own thoughts are that they make just as rational decisions as the average person. So what is it that has upset you?
AJ
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2016 at 00:16
Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2016 at 13:40
i am idly curious about said "evidence". i'd be quite surprised if any meaningful correlation could be made between rationality and wealth. just the design of the experiment would be interesting to me, as i'm inclined to believe that measuring "rationality" is, in itself, an exercise in bias. we might not even be able to agree on a definition of "poor".
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2016 at 00:01
Angrim,
There are two predominant measures of poverty at play. One, the one upon which most social welfare programs are based, compares the living standard of one group against another. In the US we use the middle class as the standard and ask, what level of income is necessary to achieve a middle class standard of living. This definition is based upon the analysis of Mollie Orshanky's 1964 report to the Department of the Interior and is, itself, based upon her 1957 analysis of the dietary needs of a family of four. The methodology employed was to take the amount of income spent by the average middle class family of four to meet the 1957 dietary requirements and multiply it by three...because a family of four in 1957, spent one third of their income to achieve the dietary recommendations of the Department of Agriculture. Extrapolating from that data she concluded that the average family of four would need a certain income to exist at a middle class level (the level where people actually spent the money needed to reach the ideal dietary levels). From this she calculated what the average person made in the five quintiles of the general population: poor, working class, middle class, upper middle class, and rich and determined the minimum income needed for a person to love at a middle class level (and hence not be "poor" any longer).
This basic approach to poverty has prevailed for over fifty years. The current welfare system is not about increasing the income of those whose levels of income are below the middle class (and thus who cannot live like the middle class) but of increasing the standard of living of those people. In 1957 the poverty rate was at 21%. When Johnson started his war on poverty it had gone down to 19%. After 7 years, in 1971 it was at 11%, the lowest it has ever been. Since that time the poverty rate has increased steadily...but the amount of programs has risen to 127 federal programs with an annual budget of 1.3 Trillion dollars. In the book I'm writing I argue that the problem is not that we spent over 50 Trillion dollars on the problem, but that we don't really understand the problem and instead of helping the poor we have only bandaged the wound.
The second definition of poverty is where the argument gets really interesting. I'm arguing that people are not poor because they lack resources, but because they do not use the resources in the same way a middle class person. My argument is that the emotional and financial (in that order) instability of the home produces people who learn by habit to live in the survival mode. Thus, giving a truly poor person a 90 day training course in order to improve his or her skill level is like handing a blind person a basketball and telling them to shoot baskets. They can't do it because they lack something fundamental to achieving the goal. It's a middle class solution to a poverty class problem and it doesn't work.....except when it does.
When it works, almost always there is an influence in the situation which is middle class or above. In other words, in family groups where people do make it into the middle class there is enough emotional and financial stability (not measured by income but by sustainable income), that the child growing up in that environment doesn't live in survival mode and thus can plan and execute a plan into the future.
It is this inability to plan and execute which I examine in the second 1/3 of the book. I examine the records of those 127 programs (not all of them, but a good deal) and see what happens when the benefits arrive at the doorstep of the poor family. In most cases they change nothing because they are what a middle class person would do to get out of poverty. And in the vast majority of cases the amount of aid actually reaching the people is so small that if a private charity acted like the average welfare program it's administrators would be jailed in most states. For instance, according to the Senate Finance Committee, 90% of the dollars set aside for food stamps is in administrative costs. In general, for each welfare program the federal government takes 27% off the top, the states another 24% and the private agencies which actually administer programs, then take their 24%. Seven percent is lost to fraud on top of it.
The statistics I'm quoting all come from Federal and state accounting, not from those stupid and irrelevant anti welfare web sites, btw.
The second half of the second 1/3 focuses on the causes of instability in multi generational family poverty and finds some interesting data. First, the causes of poverty are not the lack of income, or education specifically. Those are the results for the most part. Nor is poverty caused by lack of jobs. Though that too contributes to some degree, it isn't as significant as you would think. The real cause of poverty is that which causes the emotional and financial instability in the family unit (the group of people who think of themselves as a family but whom may not even be related). And in over 90% of those cases, it is addiction which is at the heart of that instability. Nothing kills families who have nothing with which to fight, like addiction. 13.8 million Americans are addicts. Of that about 1/2 are in the poverty class. But the effects of addiction are far more significant in that class than others because other classes have the resources to deal with addiction. The poor do not.
The last part of my book deals with how to fix the problem and it's pretty radical. In fact, it's really anti-government altogether. But that's another post for another day.
Hope the statistics helped you see I'm not just blowing smoke. I can send you the sources of many of them if you wish.
AJ
PS. I don't believe there is a correlation between intelligence and wealth, but there certainly is between income and education. I think this is why people think that the poor are somehow less rational. They too much equate education with rationality and thus fall into that trap.
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2016 at 00:12
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See, now we've moved from "moral development" into "what the government should or shouldn't do about poverty."
Nice try, but does not belong on the forum.
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Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2016 at 06:22
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i'm going to ignore the political part of all this and just respond to the bits that address my interest.
to begin, if "poor" is defined as making somewhat less than the middle class (the exact formula escapes me), then raising the standard of living of the poor is an effective way of reducing poverty; equally effective would be reducing the standard of living of the middle class...and ever so much easier. which was happening during the "war on poverty"?
regarding rationality, i'm interpreting what you've said here as meaning that "the poor" are trained by circumstance to use a short planning horizon due to the uncertainty of their situation. yet because their situation is uncertain, this would seem to be the most sensible way to think. this reminds me of a group of economists criticising the consumer for closing a small, low interest loan in preference to paying down a larger, higher interest loan (something bankers regard as irrational). it would be irrational if the future were guaranteed, of course, but if one is uncertain of future cash flows or expenses, retiring a monthly debt (the shorter term strategy) has its own logic. which is "correct"? always in motion is the future.
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2016 at 20:06
Angrim wrote:
i'm going to ignore the political part of all this and just respond to the bits that address my interest.
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I do suppose you can ignore the parts about the failure of the government to eliminate poverty and see them as merely political statements, but to do so would be to ignore the basic premise of the argument. If multi-generational stability is what is needed to truly reduce poverty, then how is that achieved? The way we've tried has failed. And if there is anyone to blame, it's all of us and none of us. Mistakes happen and we don't need to whip anybody for them. If, as I argue in my upcoming book, the cause of multi-generational long term poverty is addiction, then the cure is to reduce or eliminate addiction. So in the last part of the book I discuss the government's role in researching the cure or cures for addiction and how the money spent on welfare should be moved to a "man on the moon" type project to cure addiction. Thus, my criticism is not with government involvement, it's in where the dollars have bee placed. In addition, my comments on waste are not meant to be anything more than factual. The numbers come from the Federal government itself. It's just a well known fact that if you send money up three layers and each takes a slice, by the time it gets back it's greatly reduced. There is no "blame" for that, it's as true in private businesses as in governments.
Angrim wrote:
to begin, if "poor" is defined as making somewhat less than the middle class (the exact formula escapes me), then raising the standard of living of the poor is an effective way of reducing poverty; equally effective would be reducing the standard of living of the middle class...and ever so much easier. which was happening during the "war on poverty"? |
Correct. Once you understand that if you define poverty by the middle class and the middle class moves you effect the number of poor. I've analyzed the number of things you can get on current poverty programs and found that if a person could take advantage of all of them you would be hard pressed to distinguish between them and the middle class.
Angrim wrote:
regarding rationality, i'm interpreting what you've said here as meaning that "the poor" are trained by circumstance to use a short planning horizon due to the uncertainty of their situation. yet because their situation is uncertain, this would seem to be the most sensible way to think. this reminds me of a group of economists criticising the consumer for closing a small, low interest loan in preference to paying down a larger, higher interest loan (something bankers regard as irrational). it would be irrational if the future were guaranteed, of course, but if one is uncertain of future cash flows or expenses, retiring a monthly debt (the shorter term strategy) has its own logic. which is "correct"? always in motion is the future. |
I agree. It's exactly what I meant. That is just one reason I argue that being poor does not make you irrational, it just moves you into a situation where your rational choices tend to keep your income low. And for an economy to prosper you need people to make long term productive choices -- choices which lead to greater productivity....greater skills etc.... One of the hardest things to do is to tell the truth in such a way that people don't make a moral argument out of what you say. Most active speakers are societists (see my post on personality) and thus they live in a world of social propriety ...the home of morals. They tend to see everything as a moral statement. It's very hard to be objective in that environment, and even this is probably being read as a judgement of them....sigh. LOL AJ
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Posted By: GM Rikoo
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2016 at 21:03
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Get back to the topic at hand, and stay off of politics.
Against the rules: "discussions and debates of a real world religious or political nature"
This is the Caravan, but still....
Rikoo
------------- Illyriad Community Manager / Public Relations / community@illyriad.co.uk
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 17:36
Okay, I apologize for wandering into a subject obviously away from that of moral development. But in my defense, it is where the respondents decided to go. Sigh.
AJ
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Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 18:21
ajqtrz wrote:
Angrim wrote:
i'm going to ignore the political part of all this and just respond to the bits that address my interest.
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I do suppose you can ignore the parts about the failure of the government to eliminate poverty and see them as merely political statements, but to do so would be to ignore the basic premise of the argument. | (so, ftr, no one but you was prepared to make this political.)
ajqtrz wrote:
Angrim wrote:
to begin, if "poor" is defined as making somewhat less than the middle class (the exact formula escapes me), then raising the standard of living of the poor is an effective way of reducing poverty; equally effective would be reducing the standard of living of the middle class...and ever so much easier. which was happening during the "war on poverty"? |
Correct. Once you understand that if you define poverty by the middle class and the middle class moves you effect the number of poor. I've analyzed the number of things you can get on current poverty programs and found that if a person could take advantage of all of them you would be hard pressed to distinguish between them and the middle class. | what seems clear is that eliminating poverty, as you have defined it, could only be achieved (mathematically) by eliminating the middle class. it's an odd definition, imo. to have completely left the wealthy out of consideration seems bizarre.
ajqtrz wrote:
That is just one reason I argue that being poor does not make you irrational, it just moves you into a situation where your rational choices tend to keep your income low. | maybe. being risk-averse doesn't necessarily suppress income, and being risk-prone doesn't necessarily enhance it. i don't think i understand how your argument about addiction works into this. let's ignore the implication that "the poor" suffer disproportionately from addiction; are you talking about addiction as a concept or addiction as in "substance abuse"? i'd be interested in the nature of the relationship you're asserting between risk behaviours and addiction, because i'm not seeing a clear one atm. (and for Rikoo's benefit, what i'm trying to get back to here is the moral dimension of this, because none of this seems to involve anything i would consider immoral. there's nothing reprehensible about being averse to risk, although some might argue that being risk-prone is in some sense virtuous.)
ajqtrz wrote:
One of the hardest things to do is to tell the truth in such a way that people don't make a moral argument out of what you say. | you chose a curious topic title for someone who wanted to avoid a moral argument. ;)
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 21:36
Angrim, in respect to Rikoo's threat to shut this thread down as having gone off topic, I will answer you privately.
Sorry, but Rikoo has a point.
AJ
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