Language and Abbreviations
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: Miscellaneous
Forum Name: The Caravanserai
Forum Description: A place to just chat about whatever takes your fancy, whether it's about Illyriad or not.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=6747
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 06:29
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Language and Abbreviations
Posted By: ajqtrz
Subject: Language and Abbreviations
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2016 at 15:53
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Everybody knows that some abbreviations are quite popular and make things more clear. If you are telling a joke that might be taken the wrong way in GC you might add "LOL" or an emoticon. Clarity of communication is always useful if you are trying to maintain good relations. At least that's my opinion. In GC some words are considered "banned." I'll not go over them as that might get this post banned. But what of those who use abbreviations for those banned words? When you see "WTF" do you hear in your mind the letters "W," "T", and "F?" I think not. So if the result of using those types of abbreviations is to trigger the actual words in the listeners mind, is it appropriate to use those abbreviations? (And yes, it may be that my use of "WTF" in this context may seem 'hypocritical,' but then again, an example had to be use or some wouldn't know about what I am speaking). Along the same track is this. We each wish our communication to be effective. As a former professor of Communication and one interested in how we communicate and how effective communication enhances our abilities and status in the community, (in general, though there are sometimes exceptions), you have to ask yourself is the use of "flowery" language an enhancement of your communication or a distraction. I think that, overall, if you use such language too much it's a distraction and can be socially dangerous. Think about it. Have you ever had anyone become uncomfortable because you DIDN'T use the "f-word?" In other words, most people, and in fact nearly universally, people respect "clean" language. In contrast there are a few, (I am not personally in this group) who will "write you off" the minute you use such language. And study after study shows that when you use such language, the more you rely upon it to express yourself, the less intelligent you sound to your audience. That's not just my opinion, that is what communication studies have consistently shown. In addition, the use of "colorful" language, if it's consistent, gives you no place to go should you wish to make a distinction between your normal heightened emotion and your really, really, heightened emotion. If you drop the "f-bomb" when you scrape your knee what do you have to get the message across that you broke your leg? So, pragmatically you have no where to go. I "cuss" on occasion, but it's so rare that when I do my family and my employees immediately take note and respond. I suspect that if I were to use such language on a regular basis they would become inoculated against my use of it and not respond so quickly or with real focus. Now some people will interpret this as "preachy." But notice that I've not said a thing about right or wrong. It's not a matter of right or wrong, but of wisdom. And wisdom is the ability to take knowledge, apply it to a situation, and get the results you wish. You live among people and you now know that respond to a lower rate of such language with higher estimate of the speaker. You now know, and have probably never thought about it, that if you use "ultimate" emotionally expressive words to express only moderate emotions you have no way to actually express those truly "ultimate" emotions. And you know that using the abbreviations for these words, while obviously allowed, is the same as using the words. The choice is, of course, up to you. Just some thoughts. Hopefully you too will respond with some considered and appropriate thoughts of your own. AJ |
Replies:
Posted By: Lagavulin
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2016 at 17:01
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Nice post AJ. A side comment re WTF and similar abbreviations. To the extent that the ban on some words is to protect younger players then the use of WTF does not harm them since the player would already have to know what the last letter stands for and if she does then she already know the word. To the extent that the ban is just to keep GC pleasant then the use of WTF, and others, is more of a problem of course. |
Posted By: Diva
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2016 at 17:07
I'm so in trouble now... but I'm used to it.  ------------- "Um diva.... you are sort of acting like a .... diva...." - PhoenixFire |
Posted By: GM Rikoo
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2016 at 17:11
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I am not sure what all of this is about, but when a player mentions bans on certain words, I'll need to step in just to clarify. 1) We don't allow certain words because we do allow players down to 13 years of age. While a person with any % of creativity can find a way around this filter, we are certainly not going to give MORE tools to the person who wants to mention something naughty to a younger person, or to someone who does not care to read it. And, yes, you can still be "punished" for using words that are different but mean the same thing. 2) We have many, many, players who play from an office or while at work. We like to make the game safe enough so that they can play without links or giant pictures popping up on their feed. This is a lesser reason, of course, but a valid one. 3) Particular words -- no matter how deeply we look into their meaning or use -- will always cause an argument. Don't look at us... we didn't invent the words or the reactions. This list also includes words that personally offend us, like racial and sexual references. Anyway, sorry to interrupt. If anyone has particular questions about the rules, please let me know! Rikoo ------------- Illyriad Community Manager / Public Relations / community@illyriad.co.uk |
Posted By: Hyrdmoth
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2016 at 17:21
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I listened to some (otherwise very good) Yale lectures on Ancient Greek History, and one thing that really grated was the habit the lecturer had of saying "O, M, G." So, some people clearly do just hear/speak the letters. Having said that, as a scientist, I would always define any acronym/abbreviation that I use when first introducing it, so as to avoid any possibility of it being misunderstood.
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Posted By: scottfitz
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2016 at 17:30
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I am only ever offended by usage, never merely by a word itself.
The acronym "WTF" conveys confusion or lack of comprehension, and as such is rarely offensive, save for a small subgroup of people who choose to be dogmatically offended by every instance of a word from their own personal list of words they consider inherently offensive. The word represented by the "F" in the above acronym, when used alone, generally either conveys frustration, which I do not find offensive, or it conveys anger or insult, which I do generally find offesive. It's not the word that is inherently offensive, it is always the usage, and only the usage. (A third use of that particular word is as an generic adjective to bolster an otherwise impoverished vocabulary; I find that usage just sad.) The DEVs have a list of words that they correctly assume a significant number of people will choose to be offended by, so they sensibly ban those words. They can hardly ban the letter "F" |
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2016 at 23:16
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snafu is a similar word that comes to mind, since as I understand it in the original phrase the F stands for something similar as in wtf. However, I have not in my experience found anyone to be offended by the use of snafu even in relatively formal business settings. I think it's possible that some abbreviations gradually become so far removed from their roots that even if the original phrase included an offensive word, they have ceased to offend. I'm not sure where wtf is on this continuum -- it's not an abbreviation I myself would choose to use, and its overuse does tend to raise my eyebrows. However, I would glibly say "what the heck?" which would have been considered borderline offensive in some circles when I was young. I think aj makes a good point that it's wise to consider that there is a broad audience in Illy, people from all countries and different language and cultural backgrounds. While WTF probably has more or less the same literal meaning for everyone (at least all who have any idea what it means), it probably has a different tone or color for different people. It makes sense to be aware of this kind of thing when one is communicating. In my opinion, it's not a matter of "right" or "wrong" or even "allowable" or "disallowable," but rather "what's the most effective way to communicate to the current audience" as well as "what does my general tone communicate about me?" In this regard I tend to err on the side of maximum liberty, as long as no one is harassed, abused etc. by the communication. In other words, what the heck, do what you want.
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Posted By: Steven Quincy Urpel
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2016 at 23:41
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I just want to say, as a warehouse manager, idk wtf you all are talking about. ------------- They call me MISTER Urp! |
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2016 at 00:28
| It's a different F from the ones in FIFO and LIFO, Mr. Urp. |
Posted By: Diva
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2016 at 02:30
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I'm still reading I'm in trouble on all examples... ------------- "Um diva.... you are sort of acting like a .... diva...." - PhoenixFire |
Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2016 at 03:30
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scottfitz wrote:Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2016 at 20:20
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I think Rikoo's point is well taken. Yes, there are young people who do not know what WTF means, but if the standard is, as you imply, that they have heard the word itself then I doubt any young person of school age has not heard the word somewhere. One wonders how old you have to be to make the connection between WTF and the words it represents. As to the point that some people do say the letters themselves, I might suggest that that is a very small percent. Most people see the abbreviations and say the words for which they stand. Thus, to use the abbreviation is about as close to saying the word as it can be. The central question is, I suppose, are we trying to keep people from using the words or hearing the words? If nobody is listening then use whatever language you like, but what would be the point of speaking if there was no one listening? Thus, you can assume that somebody is listening. Are the rules designed to stop people from hearing those words in GC? In my opinion the number of people who might be offended by the use of abbreviations in place of the actual words is quite small....but why not respect their feeling as well? Are those who are offended by the use of what is generally considered "crude" language worth less than those who take no offense? In the end it seems to me that it's respect we are speaking about. If you enter the room of preachers do you not adjust your language? Since the audience in Illy my be quite broad why not insure a "non-offensive" time for all by simply not using what you probably don't need to use anyway. Rill's point is well taken. But freedom is destroyed by licentiousness. Both ideas are nearly the same, but licentiousness is freedom without regard. I would argue that the freedom to enjoy the game without being offended by the language being used, especially if it is unneeded and unnecessary, should be granted to all players, even the slim minority who are offended by such language. Finally, it is interesting to me that one of the major reasons for avoiding the language under discussion have not been addressed by any commentators yet. Do they make sense that using such language casually and consistently gives you no way to express any higher level of pain or pleasure? Thanks for all your comments. AJ |
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2016 at 20:35
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If the word and/or abbreviation in question is your highest way of expressing pleasure, clearly you have not been spending enough time in fabric stores. That's all I'm going to say about that.
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Posted By: Hyrdmoth
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2016 at 09:41
It is true that a lot of this additional information is lost in textual communication, but our use of words is shaped by "meatspace" communication where that is more important. There is also the context of the individual's history of behaviour. For someone who uses what is generally regarded as profane language routinely it's absence might be regarded as indicative of a higher level of pain or pleasure - the point being that they are shocked out of their normal form of communication.
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Posted By: Agalloch
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2016 at 13:23
| You guys should watch cartoons one of these days, you ll save alot of time. |
Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2016 at 03:23
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LOL, Agalloch. Context does determine meaning, but the context in GC is public and meaning is what is both intended and read or heard. Text by itself does narrow the channels of emotion transference, but good writing can generally make up for a lot of the loss. In some ways the use of some words might in fact be tolerated in the community if they were few and far between. But one supposes the rules were written, as rules generally are, to curb a problem rather than to prevent one. What would it mean to society in general if people decided one day that certain words should be used very sparingly or not at all. I don't mean legal rules or whatever, but a sort of self policing whereby each person just chose to cut back and "clean up" their utterances? Then, if one needed to get the attention of others, and I mean really get their attention, then the person were to use those words, they would have effect and probably not offe3nd anyone exactly because they would be appropriate to the context. Perhaps why some words are offensive is not the words, but the use of them in a context where the emotional impact of the words is not needed. After all, if strong emotion is being expressed by the word or words being used, and the situation is such that strong emotion is not intended (to be expressed) then isn't the use of those words "crying wolf?" Just some further musing on the subject. AJ |
Posted By: Mud Feral
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2016 at 22:26
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language evolves. use changes meaning. do i like that? no, but it is what it is. you may keep your personal mores. |
Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2016 at 00:21
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Mud Feral Yes, language evolves, but that isn't the topic at hand. The topic of this thread is the use of abbreviations to replace words that are banned in GC as a method of skirting the rules and the wisdom of using such language and their abbreviations in a public space in general. I do not hold that it is immoral, but that it is unwise. And thus, that is the first way the comment on my "mores" is off target. In addition, "mores" are, by definition: "the essential or characteristic customs and conventions of a community." Thus it would be impossible, strictly speaking, for me to have "personal mores." So, given that people use abbreviations to substitute for banned words, in GC and in many other places, what do you think of that? AJ |
Posted By: Ptolemy
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2016 at 00:51
| Words are only banned on GC, and possibly IGM's. You can say what you wish on AC, and PC. Banning abbreviations is going to far, especially since you can't ban every single one that might be considered offensive. |
Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2016 at 01:58
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That the words for which the abbreviations stand are already offensive enough that they are banned, I take it, need not be argued. What I'm referring to is not some new or expanded standard of offensiveness, but the spirit of the already established standard. Using abbreviations to circumvent what you can't spell out, seem to me to be skirting the issue and somewhat dishonest. You say, when you join Illyriad, that you will abide by the rules, which include the language standards stated. But then you use abbreviations to get around the standard to which you agreed to abide? I suspect it's like many things in life. You get a driver's license and agree to drive a certain way, then you simply ignore it and drive how you feel...maybe not recklessly, but just a bit over the "speed limit." You park your car in the "loading zone" because you are "only going to be a minute." And, in the end, you basically say, "if I can get away with it, why not?" Maybe it's just human nature to play fast and loose with the spirit of the law all the time claiming that you have kept the letter. And one wonders why have more and more detailed laws when all we really need is for people to try to uphold the spirit of the thing. AJ |
Posted By: GM Rikoo
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2016 at 14:21
I'll only answer this because some players seem fascinated by the rules, especially on what can and cannot be said in the game. (Just using this quote as a jumping-off point.) In most online games or communities, there are limits to what can be said -- this is connected mainly to intent, rather than to the actual words on the screen. Games like Illy do not allow anything to be said in private chat or IGM -- there are rules covering that as well -- because we cannot allow one player to (for example) send many IGMs that contain racist or threatening words. Sure, players can get away with all sorts of stuff by using abbreviations or whatever, but that is because there are practical, every-day examples of what people consider "dirty" or "filthy" that guide the rules of chat. WTF is not the same as saying What The F**K, just like dag nabbit is not the same as saying god d***it, or saying poop is the same as saying sh*t. Don't look at me; I didn't make up The Guidelines of Modern United States-based Slang, but for now we simply go on what most people can get away with in their office or at home with kids. If there is a word or words that need to be "discussed" (as in how they work in the filter, etc) just let me know! But, basically we work like a basic cable show: if it bleeps there, it probably won't work here. Rikoo ------------- Illyriad Community Manager / Public Relations / community@illyriad.co.uk |
Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2016 at 19:21
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Thank you Rikoo for your thoughtful response. I suppose one can go by the strict letter of the rules and argue that if the rules don't actually say it's banned it must be okay. This is the equivalent, I think, to the idea that "Well, the cops give you.....x amount of mph (the number varies depending I think on the state of inebriation of the speaker"), as a justification for speeding. But should, in any stable society, we be constantly picking at the edge of the boundaries to see what we can get away with? The whole reason we have many rules is because some people thought the social boundaries were her and others there until enough of them offended enough of the others that somebody had to make yet another rule about where the boundary is....or a greater and more detailed one, as in "If there is a word or words that need to be 'discussed'....." But I do have a disagreement with you. When I use "WTF" the "F" in my head sounds the same as "F**K." Do you have two pronunciations for the two "F's" or is it that you have some idea that each of them represents two socially different uses? If they sound the same, they are the same. But since "context determines meaning" one supposes if I said "What The F**K?" why would that be any different than "WTF," other than the powers that be might be more comfortable with the full abbreviation than spelling it out. Both the abbreviation and the actual words sound the same to me when I read them. Of course some people may be different, but unless you require everybody to read just the letters "W" "T" "F" I suspect many will hear the words for which they stand. In any case, when you decide that one form is better or more acceptable than the other you are just declaring a boundary to be here or there. You are making a "rule," at least informally, as the GM of the game. Which is, I think, the core of the problem. For if we all have different experiences we may all be putting the boundaries in slightly or greatly different places and thus, run into situations where we have to guess what your future 'new rule' will come down...is it acceptable to the GM or not? I might suggest a better way for all to adopt. First, let's acknowledge that we have a variance in what we think appropriate or inappropriate. The rules stated are only really dealing with the most clear examples of inappropriate behavior and the rest we each have to figure out for ourselves. Therefore, my suggestion is that we forgo figuring out where the boundaries are and how if this or that expression will be in or out of that boundary and error on the side of caution. By restricting ourselves to language we know from experience is almost certain to be within the acceptable boundaries we make fewer mistakes, offend no-one (or at least extremely rarely, I suppose), and avoid the time spent in discussions like this one. My point is that if we all honor the intent that the current standards set and just think about where we might be pushing the boundaries needlessly and back off from those places, we would do much better and avoid the whole need to discuss where the boundaries may or may not be. In most civilized societies that is what makes them civilized...the commitment to the ideas and goals of the society not merely to the strict letter of the laws of that society, even when it might be that we might need to restrict ourselves in areas in which we have no real discomfort. AJ |
Posted By: GM Rikoo
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2016 at 00:08
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And my original point has always been that our rules are not perfect, can and do change, and reflect current trends. Like I said, I don't know why WTF is more acceptable, but it is. We go by common use in American slang. That's why you can use the word fanny, but not fag (excuse the word. In English slang it means cigarette, but not here, so we do not allow it.) "But I do have a disagreement with you. When I use "WTF" the "F" in my head sounds the same as "F**K." Do you have two pronunciations for the two "F's" or is it that you have some idea that each of them represents two socially different uses? If they sound the same, they are the same." The problem with how you hear it is up to you. I cannot help that. Again, sorry, but some words/phrases/sayings/abbreviations DO stand for "bad stuff" but that's life for ya. "First, let's acknowledge that we have a variance in what we think appropriate or inappropriate." Of course there is variance, but the only people who decide what is acceptable or not is the developer and community team. Sorry, but there has to be a "rule of law" or pretty soon people are literally using racial terms and threatening each other's life. Continue the discussion -- I did not mean to interrupt -- but it's very basic where we are concerned: do not break our rules. :) They can change, and I can even "punish" someone for using words that are normally allowed because of the way they use them. Rikoo ------------- Illyriad Community Manager / Public Relations / community@illyriad.co.uk |
Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2016 at 20:43
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Good points all, Rikoo. But if you read carefully I'm not asking for further rules, but for a general consensus to tone down things that, obviously, might be "heard" offensively. "WTF" and it's cousins are all meant to express ideas, but what those symbols trigger in the listeners mind may be reasonably understood as a range of ideas, including of which, is the mental sound of the words. Is it really unreasonable to ask people to simply dial back their own use of questionable abbreviations? That's all I'm thinking need be done. It's been my experience that most people do not intend to offend anyone, but, generally speaking, do so when they don't consider the impact of what that are expressing. Expression is fine, but there is a difference between "blind expression" that does not consider what the hearer is going to "hear" and communication, which always considers both the needs of the speaker and of the receiver of that speech. Finally, you are correct that the developers and community team have the final say-so on what is allowed and what is not....however, you are also very wrong about that in one important way. The only thing the developers and community team can dictate is the punishment for breaking their rules. That's it. If the community suddenly, and for whatever reason, suddenly decided that it's okay to use some word, and you tried to enforce the ban on that word, the community might leave altogether. In other words, whatever list you come up with is ultimately pragmatic. No business leads what it's customers want without a lot of effort, and in this case, I'm willing to bet that if you started enforcing some standard that the players, in general, didn't want, a good deal of them would jump ship, possibly leading to a change of heart on your side. I've seen it happen before. Now the only reason we have most rules is because people weren't self-governing. They didn't act in a manner that was best for the entire community and thus, someone got hurt, or bothered, or inconvenienced, or whatever. Which is why I remind people that rules cannot hope to cover all the various permutations of an ever changing vocabulary and if we wish to avoid the need for more rules, among other reasons, we should be sure to guard our own communication. It is self-defeating for any group to constantly try to get around the legal rules as it only makes for more stringent rules. So it is up to those involved in the speaking to consider their own set of guidelines and to make sure those guidelines are well within what they may consider appropriate. We are not the absolute right or wrong of the matter and thus might be wise to consider frames of reference which may be more conservative than our own, and respect those. In general I think that means to not skirt the "banned words" issue by simply using the abbreviations. AJ |
Posted By: GM Rikoo
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2016 at 06:10
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"The only thing the developers and community team can dictate is the punishment for breaking their rules. That's it. If the community suddenly, and for whatever reason, suddenly decided that it's okay to use some word, and you tried to enforce the ban on that word, the community might leave altogether." I guess that I am not sure where you are attempting to go with this. This is obvious. If players decided to all leave the game for any number of reasons, they could. That has nothing to do with the fact that we could prevent players from doing almost anything. Even if they left, they still didn't get to use the other word for "poop." If you want to get into thoughts behind defining words, etc, go for it. It's an interesting discussion, but I am just here to tell you what you can and cannot do. Again, any other questions (other than philosoosohhoshpy, I am no good at that!) feel free to contact me! :) Rikoo ------------- Illyriad Community Manager / Public Relations / community@illyriad.co.uk |
Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2016 at 22:27
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Rikoo, when you say "I'm not sure where you are attempting to go with this" I'm wondering if you are reading things at all. I keep saying it's not about rules, it's about respect. Respect of others means considering if your own actions might be needlessly and negatively impacting others and, if they are not needed and they have even a reasonable change of of negatively impacting others, you should voluntarily refrain from them. I'm not trying to tell the rule makers we need more rules, I'm trying to get more players to involve themselves in more self-rule. As for your belief that one can't use the alternative word for "poop" I can bet you as much as you like that it can be used but that if it is typed and sent into GC it will not be printed in GC but the person will be censored. Thus, as I said, you can't stop the use (it was 'broadcast') but only punish (censoring and banning for a period of time) the use as a deterrent. Ultimately any rule by any authority must be enforced. I'm only asking people to enforce a higher standard in their own communication. I hope this clarifies things. AJ |
Posted By: GM Rikoo
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2016 at 22:37
Good, keep it respectful or I will shut down the thread. Rikoo ------------- Illyriad Community Manager / Public Relations / community@illyriad.co.uk |