SIN War Declaration Against SHARK
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Politics & Diplomacy
Forum Description: If you run an alliance int the Broken Lands, here's where you should make your intentions public.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=6668
Printed Date: 16 Apr 2022 at 19:52
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: SIN War Declaration Against SHARK
Posted By: Jejune
Subject: SIN War Declaration Against SHARK
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2015 at 18:47
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The Hashashin's [SIN] war declaration is a direct, one-on-one strategic challenge to Dark Shade's [SHARK] move into the Newlands. This is not a grievance. We seek to engage SHARK at times and places of our alliance's choosing to halt their deliberate move into the Newlands, which we believe is designed to exert dominance over the BL continent. SHARK has talked about its move into Newlands numerous times in the forums as being concerted and expressly strategic in nature. Pico said, "Shark decided around 6 months ago to make Newlands our base in BL. Being one of the top alliances in the game, having a base in the middle of BL provides us with the opportunity to reach out to different regions in a more efficient way." Halcyon has also explained SHARK's move to Newlands as a "strategic move into Newlands," and in response to the rise of land claims and SHARK's willful thwarting of them, Halcyon said, "We do not settle inside a land claim with an intention to force a conflict, but we settle where our strategy indicates even if this means settling inside a land claim." Halcyon objected to the rise of BL land claims, arguing that, "this means that a relatively small part of the players are trying to dictate to the majority where to place their cities. It won't stand." However, in SHARK's recent surrender terms for TVM, they have stipulated that the losing combatants adhere to a "6 month ban on settlements in Newlands." SIN sees this as further proof of an accelerated plan to bolster SHARK's position in Newlands that can lead to their unwanted military dominion over the region and beyond. For our part, SIN also recognizes the strategic value of the Newlands. In a forum response we've noted: "Make no mistake: Newlands is prime location for a militarized alliance. Its central position and relative number of plains plots makes it ideal to build a kind of "base" that would allow a TVM or Shark to reach key areas of the BL quickly, whether it was in a tournament or in a real war. Over the past 6-9 months, the rise of alliances in the immediate center of BL, such as Shu-Han, B!B, Hansa, BRO, Stark, plus other Elgean alliances' satellite clusters, all make it a region worth dominating." As a military alliance composed of avid gamers, SIN applauds SHARK's willingness approach the game from a strategic perspective. We also see this is as a crucial challenge for our own alliance, which has strategic objectives of our own. We intend this war to be a challenge to SHARK's move to the Broken Lands. In spite of being grossly outnumbered in members, population and land claimed, SIN embarks on this war singularly and voluntarily. SIN is not looking for alliances to interfere with this challenge on either side, as it is a one on one challenge to SHARK and SHARK alone. ------------- https://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/394156" rel="nofollow">  |
Replies:
Posted By: Solanar
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2015 at 18:49
| ::gets the popcorn:: |
Posted By: Granlik
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2015 at 19:15
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Grabs the armchair and the matching footstool. |
Posted By: Ptolemy
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2015 at 20:24
Joins Sol
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Solanar wrote:Posted By: Wartow
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2015 at 20:59
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$omeone tell me to which hub$ I can $end my good$ to take advantage of thi$ developing market... ------------- 
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Posted By: Ptolemy
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2015 at 21:08
Send it to me.
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Posted By: Agalloch
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2015 at 23:23
| Have fun :) |
Posted By: Dungshoveleux
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2015 at 23:31
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Too many words... Why not just say "why" properly and say what you will "do" if you win?
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Posted By: JohnDoe
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2015 at 00:35
| interesting |
Posted By: Lifeless
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2015 at 02:23
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*starts bolstering his borders* I'm not taking any chances! ------------- The Undead God, Lifeless |
Posted By: KarL Aegis
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2015 at 04:11
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We're going to see plenty of boar spears flying around. ------------- I am not amused. |
Posted By: Mr Damage
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2015 at 04:48
| I knew there would be justification in updating my alliance page to include SIN the other week, well done to your organisation and good luck to all concerned. |
Posted By: robmc
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2015 at 06:24
| Cant wait!!! |
Posted By: Sasuke
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2015 at 09:36
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This sure will be a war worth watching... So , all the best to both of the alliance :)
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Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2015 at 17:48
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Posted By: Dungshoveleux
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2015 at 20:18
| Well turned phrase is not something that springs to mind here. |
Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2015 at 21:31
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That's subjective, so we can disagree but I do wonder why, having laid out their case with history, quotes and strategy, you consider Jejune's post less than proper? ------------- |
Posted By: Agalloch
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2015 at 22:52
| I thought the post was pretty straight forwards in why they did what they did. |
Posted By: Mr Damage
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2015 at 00:50
| Agreed |
Posted By: Skorka
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2015 at 03:15
 Sounds like money
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Posted By: Steven Quincy Urpel
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2015 at 06:48
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Prices never went up in the wars I've been around for. Also, one would assume Sin and Shark know enough to not use boar spears in PvP. ------------- They call me MISTER Urp! |
Posted By: jcx
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2015 at 09:22
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Oh. this is interesting! 1v1 (Alliance vs Alliance) war is a good thing to watch. Rock on people! /me grabs beer and watch the Illy world burn. ------------- Disclaimer: The above is jcx|orcboy's personal opinion and is not the opinion or policy of Harmless? [H?] or of the little green men that have been following him all day. jcx in H? | orcboy in H? |
Posted By: Captain Kindly
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2015 at 09:35
Indeed. If an alliance prepares for war, they usually stock up before that. Or have T2 resources stocked up in high number on principle. In tournaments it's a different case, but we all know the devs have become allergic to those... Good luck to all, and I'm hoping the other big alliances can stop the urge to go stomping :) But since this is Illy, somehow I doubt that will happen...
------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/60249" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: OrcDork
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2015 at 09:53
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Question: Did SIN 1st stipulate what they want from SHARK in order to prevent an attack? Or was it an ' attack 1st, converse later' type of approach? Maybe SIN didn't stipulate terms 1st as they didn't want to allow SHARK a chance to stall and prepare for war (Not saying they didn't, just speculating). Any ideas?
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Posted By: jcx
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2015 at 10:33
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at OrcDork, I think they will attack when they wanted too. :D /me heard a lady warrior said - "She smells war! and it smells like a teen spirit." ------------- Disclaimer: The above is jcx|orcboy's personal opinion and is not the opinion or policy of Harmless? [H?] or of the little green men that have been following him all day. jcx in H? | orcboy in H? |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2015 at 13:34
Prices fell in both big wars. As armies increase in size, the value of gold increases. Thus the price of items appears to fall, because the items are priced in gold. |
Posted By: Dungshoveleux
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2015 at 16:12
| I'd agree that prices in general would fall as players liquidated holdings to generate cash to pay their armies. |
Posted By: Dungshoveleux
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2015 at 16:14
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Hi Mr OrcDork, That is the 64k gold question. All the blurb on the 1st page is just excuses. I think they just want to fight and knock SHARK off the top slot for kudos (or vanity).
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2015 at 16:34
| Come on. How could they possibly knock Shark off the top slot? The leaderboard shows you have 812 cities. It doesn't seem likely that the #12 alliance could dislodge you from #1. If SIN accomplished that, it would be an incredible feat of military prowess. |
Posted By: Granlik
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2015 at 20:07
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I think Sin are just being honest and as one of the first to establish a land claim and feel it is a legitimate extension of Illy game play, now wish to show their objection to Shark who disagree with claims. They may also worry about Sharks statement that they have developed Newlands just because it is strategic area and foresee a further development later in the game into BL to widen their objective. |
Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2015 at 20:59
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Posted By: Mr Damage
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2015 at 21:42
| Here come the conspiracy theories. |
Posted By: Dungshoveleux
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2015 at 22:18
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@Brandmeister I do not ever believe that wars are 1:1. A great deal goes on behind the scenes with "help". I don't necessarily have evidence this time, but saw enough in round 1 to convince me of this assertion. I also note that Gateway contains most of TVM and is styled as "related to" (my words) SIN. So there you go.
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Posted By: Dungshoveleux
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2015 at 22:21
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**sigh** If SIN really wanted peace, wouldn't they have tried to negotiate with a list of things they wanted to agree? But it seems they just want to have a fight for the sake of it. There are no valid strategic reasons or justifications - just a belief that they can dictate where people can and cannot settle.
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Posted By: Bulani
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2015 at 23:25
| I believe that SIN like a lot of us believed the Newlands war was basically STOMP war 2.0 and therefore this is STOMP 3.0. There was no conspiracy or collusion as a lot of people are claiming. I know I was there. But people will believe what they want to believe, and now SHARK will have to deal with this. |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2015 at 00:23
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@Bulani: It is a fair point that many TVM players have moved to GATE, and many STOMP players have moved to SHARK. I still think it's quite a stretch to call this STOMP 3.0. @Dung: I don't fully understand your "behind the scenes" comment. While it's certainly possible to invisibly transfer gold and resources between alliances, isn't the actual roster completely transparent? Battle reports list all participants, so it doesn't seem possible to fight undetected. Except with magic and diplomats, but those are hardly lethal weapons compared to armies. Likewise I don't understand your assertion that "there are no strategic reasons or justifications". People have quoted two of your leaders saying that Newlands was strategic and valuable to SHARK's long term objectives. You might disagree with them, but your own leaders felt justified in challenging TVM's land claim to secure an important area. Apparently your opponents also feel quite strongly about your presence there, enough to risk their cities against the #1 alliance. If you believe that the area isn't strategic, why focus on building there in the first place, despite regional hostilities, and why hold it now with such vigor? |
Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2015 at 02:05
https://illyriadtimes.wordpress.com/2015/09/30/tvm-intercepted-vans-at-campagnolo-siege-reveal-picos-alt-supplied-city-from-moon/" rel="nofollow - ??Not only did MOON help SHARK (though, apparently without their knowledge and admittedly, they did the right thing and asked LePue to go) but so did SHRKr. I'm convinced SHARK believes they should be able to do anything they want and are surprised when called on it (verbally or otherwise). ------------- |
Posted By: KarL Aegis
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2015 at 04:16
Next you're going to say that adding the leadership of Deathmongers to the ranks of The Hashashin to fight for The Hashashin is completely different and not in any way unfair. When you have the entire military force of another alliance backing you up you are not engaging in a one versus one scenario. ------------- I am not amused. |
Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2015 at 04:41
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So, you believe SHARK using outside help for getting resources was no different than a player or players joining an alliance? You also believe that both scenarios are unfair? ------------- |
Posted By: Arian
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2015 at 06:43
I note that Gateway have not declared war, so I am uncertain what point you are trying to make or maybe Shark having SHRKr and their "after war was declared" confed TUF should count as well? What I also noted on the day war was declared was that Sin had 37 members and Shark had 83. As far as I can see Sin still have 37, Shark appear to have picked up a couple of extras... I could maybe work up a good conspiracy theory about summoning aid for a one to one fight and trying to drag in other alliances but it wouldn't be Sin I'd be mentioning ------------- 'Do you want ice with that?' |
Posted By: Lotharblack
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2015 at 07:24
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I dont think Shark ever mentioned 1vs1 fight , it was Sin that did that... ------------- Lord Loth |
Posted By: JodaMyth
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 03:55
I'd like to point out it wasn't MOON helping SHARK in that instance it was a guest of the alliance, who joined a couple days before his alts/mains alliance was declared on supplying his alliance. I have no intention of bickering about right/wrong and who did what on here. I simply felt the need to reassert that MOON (its permanent members and as an alliance) had nothing to do with those res being sent and intends to remain completely neutral in any way through this and future conflicts. We are here to teach noobs how to be less noob-like, that instance was a good learning tool of what not to do
 |
Posted By: Arian
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 08:30
Yes indeed Lotharblack, apparently 85 players with 821 cities can't manage 37 players with 265 cities on their own. ------------- 'Do you want ice with that?' |
Posted By: BARQ
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 09:00
| so here comes the help VIC declared on SIN . who said SHARK don't need allies to defeat SIN ? |
Posted By: jcx
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 10:13
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/me grabs more popcorn and beer.. Its never been an illyriad tradition to do a 1vs1 fight. If I were you sit tight and chill. :) ------------- Disclaimer: The above is jcx|orcboy's personal opinion and is not the opinion or policy of Harmless? [H?] or of the little green men that have been following him all day. jcx in H? | orcboy in H? |
Posted By: Aurordan
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 12:04
| Yeah, it's unclear to me why SIN didn't expect SHARK's allies to immediately declare war on them. That seems like a no-brainer. |
Posted By: Agalloch
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 13:57
| It is also unclear to me why people assume that VIC declared because SHARK asked them, simple use of the map shows em not only having a large cluster next to Newlands but also close to Fellandire as well, so maybe it makes perfect sense to them as an alliance not only to show to their confeds support but other strategic play as well may be in play. I am only pointing out other valid reasons not stating it is so. |
Posted By: Jax
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 14:32
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Looks like Shark declined SIN's challenge to a one on one; strategic or not it makes them look bad since they don't believe they can win. Or they rather not take their chances. ------------- |
Posted By: Dungshoveleux
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 14:54
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Was it ever a 1:1? Whilst there have been substantial "re-organisations" of people aligned against SHARK, I don't see significant changes in SHARK itself. That said, it isn't a 1:1. The initial SIN 1:1 declaration was, in my opinion, just words designed to make them "look" more like David vs Goliath.
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Posted By: Jax
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 15:14
Shark is significantly larger than SIN, so it's understanding why SIN would do that before the war declaration. SIN was able to reorganize to increase their numbers because they're not as large whereas Shark does not have to(They could of had members from VIC just to fill up few the remaining spaces, but they rather have the whole alliance involved as it goes to show). Again, having VIC join in on the havoc clearly shows that Shark fears that they won't be able to defend their territories without even more firepower than they already have available. So in a way, it was a 1 on 1 that was declined.
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 15:23
I can think of at least one good reason: escalation breeds escalation. That's how the last war got out of hand. |
Posted By: Rua
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 16:16
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Well, as I see it, if you do not want escalation, you should not have declared war in the first place. The whole point of confederations is that an alliance helps another alliance in case war is declared on them. |
Posted By: Legoman
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 16:26
Well Jax since you are in VIC and know their reason's for joining the war please share them. Oh that's right you aren't so you have no idea why they did or anything to do with it.
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Posted By: robmc
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 16:31
| So far Sin has capitalized on its chances. Totally took Shark by surprise. With the declaration of war Vic has made only proves that the BL is the elgeans next frontier. |
Posted By: Jax
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 16:32
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idk why vic joined in on the war. just saying what it looks like from my pov ------------- |
Posted By: Legoman
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 16:34
Well Jax since you are in VIC and know their reason's for joining the war please share them. Oh that's right you aren't so you have no idea why they did or anything to do with it.
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Posted By: Pellinell
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 16:36
| Lost all respect for Vic and Shark. I shall be watching closely. |
Posted By: Binky the Berserker
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 16:46
that sounds like you're choosing SIN over VIC and Shark? That neutrality you were talking about earlier didn't last very long then. |
Posted By: Pellinell
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 17:09
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It seems that you have trouble with reading comprehension binky, it was made abundantly clear that we are neutral in the sense we don't accept confeds. I see yet another example of pile on warfare. Which I have a problem with, thus my comments. |
Posted By: Legoman
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 17:15
Since SIN is declaring on Elgean alliances with a presence in BL it makes sense that they would go after VIC eventually, so why shouldn't they declare on SIN when they choose to?
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Posted By: Arian
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 17:16
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After Sharks actions in the last year or so I'm surprised they even have any allies. Lets see now... a) take a few Shark players, form another alliance, and hit Roads for no apparent or declared reason (boredom?).....then run back to Shark afterwards b) take a few Shark players, form another alliance with the express and stated intention of starting a war, start it, lose it.....then run back to Shark afterwards c) ex Shark player sitting in safety within a non combatant alliance sending attacks onto war combatants under (b) as above, then blame it on a sitter.....then run back to Shark afterwards d) deliberately landing cities within another alliance's sphere of influence and starting yet another war... e) asking for assistance, in GC at the very least (yes, you were spotted HR), when a much smaller alliance decides enough is enough and declares war on them, drag in another top 5 alliance...escalate a minor war into a major conflict why don't you? That about sums it up....and these people apparently have Allies???? ------------- 'Do you want ice with that?' |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 17:58
Since you just reprimanded someone else for speculating on VIC's reasons for joining the war, and you are actually in SHARK/VIC, shall we take your statement as their official justification for declaring war? Because if you get to speculate and everyone else doesn't, that seems a little contradictory. |
Posted By: Legoman
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 18:07
You are right it is contradictory, but at least I have a reason for speculating as the war does affect me and I am not just rabble rousing. I am not a spokesperson for any alliance in Illyriad.
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Posted By: Pellinell
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 19:31
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Sounds like Shark couldn't beat 3 tiny alliances without help and are now seeking help from another top 5 alliance to defeat yet another small alliance. How embarrassing for their membership! Largest alliance in Illy and can't beat anyone in a heads up fight....not even those a fraction their size. |
Posted By: Dungshoveleux
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 19:41
| Don't hold back! Tell how you really feel... |
Posted By: Ricky
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 19:48
| Quickly now - do we see STORM going to help SIN (as was the plan all along, in spite of their protestations) to help even things up in their mind? |
Posted By: Legoman
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 19:54
Pellinell you never cease to amaze me. NC's specialty was beating anyone larger than them, and this is NCII. And to my knowledge we did not ask for VIC's help, I could be wrong, but I haven't seen where anyone in SHARK knows why VIC declared. We all can speculate and theorize, but until they say so we can't know for sure. Maybe you should ask VIC.
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Posted By: Pellinell
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 20:24
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Ricky, we have no intention of getting involved at this time. Because unlike their opponents Sin is capable of fighting their own battles. Legoman, I have no reason to talk to Vic, I couldn't possibly care less what bs excuse they have for ganging up on a small alliance. |
Posted By: KarL Aegis
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 20:43
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Are we still pretending like this one versus one challenge was made in good faith? It wasn't. Don't pretend like it was. ------------- I am not amused. |
Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 20:44
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Posted By: Legoman
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 21:03
SHARK is also in BL and so is VIC. An apple is an apple no matter where it is.
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Posted By: Pellinell
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 21:17
| I still have a billion gold on Sin winning, any takers ? |
Posted By: DDL
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 23:14
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For those of you who think SHARK can't win a 1 on 1 with SIN, you're funny. Firstly, was it ever really a 1 on 1? Secondly, how do you declare war on someone AND THEN make stipulations? I'm positive only 1 side "agreed" to that. Lastly, you and I know that the timing of SINs declaration on SHARK was no coincidence. SHARK just finished a war. Even a blind person can see that SIN had prior arrangements with TVM / RE and T-SC. Those 3 alliances would do all the heavy lifting, weaken SHARK, and then SIN would swoop in and attempt to cut the head off the giant. Looks much more like a 4 on 1 to me. Invictus DOES NOT agree with or recognize land claims.
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Posted By: Jax
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 23:45
Legoman, Hansa neighbors VIC and Shark so it is my concern post-war. If they Shark/Vic win we'll be removing the land claim since it's not worth the hassle dealing with superpower alliances who don't even recognize them. The terrain on Hansa's land claim isn't even that good though, so I don't see why military players would want to settle here anyways. And I'm just saying if vic sent players to shark rather than having their whole alliance get involved, it wouldn't look as bad to the illyriad community(as in terms of 2vs.1 rather than 1vs.1). ------------- |
Posted By: Arian
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 23:53
But we do not KNOW anything; we see what happened and we can make educated guesses - but we do not know what Sin, TVM, RE, T-SC or anyone else for that matter, was actually thinking. If it ain't in writing, in black and white, it's just wishful thinking, muddy logic and conspiracy theories. As far as I'm aware telepathy is pretty much a fiction. If you are capable of reading the minds of other alliances' leadership possibly you should provide some proof of your assertions - whatever they may be - otherwise all you are spouting is made-up nonsense. ------------- 'Do you want ice with that?' |
Posted By: mjc2
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 00:36
well as an officer in T-SC, this is the first i am hearing about an arrangement between us and SIN with us reducing sharks troop count before SIN declared. i know i have stated previously that i was a junior officer in T-SC but about the time of the declaration T-SC was going through a major officer revamp and i basically was appointed to speak for T-SC while we decided who was actually in charge(the reason i was appointed is because i took myself out of the running completely so for a few days there i was basically running T-SC while we were hashing out who would lead us in the future) In fact the decision for T-SC declaring was completely my call and i made it during that leadership change over due to the fact that our previous leadership had agreed to back any DSD alliance in BL that had made a land claim if the backing was requested. now if TVM made an agreement with SIN idk but that really doesnt matter to me because we made an agreement with TVM to back them if they requested our help, which they did. as for the surrender, that was TVMs call, they decided to ask for terms and called the ceasefire, since we were only in the war at their request we honored it and when shark offered us terms we could accept we ended the war. in fact most of my members were not ready for the war to end, the only reason the terms were accepted was because 1. they were acceptable, 2. the officers of T-SC had RL issues going on and could not successfully run a warring alliance with those issues, 3. the rest of the DSD and SIN both informed us they would not back us in a solo war with shark if the rest of the DSD south alliances signed the treaty. and 4. we knew we were not capable of bringing the war to any shark enclaves, we could keep them out of our area for a time but we did not have the troop mix to place sieges by ourselves outside of SE BL(which shark exoed all of their cities out of this region within 2 weeks of us declaring war). apon the dissolution of T-SC and merger into STORM i sent feelers out to SIN to see if they would accept any of our members that still wanted to fight shark because i could see that the next war shark had was going to be with SIN. i was informed of conditions to join that none of my members could meet in the forseeable future and i took that as a nice way of them telling me "f*** no." but then again those conditions did highlight the major difference between T-SC and SIN in settling the SE BL, we were both military based alliances but had different city placement requirements due to the way we were both planning on handling wars. so it could have been simply that and they were completely willing to take my members. now as for the timing of SINs declaration, i had a conversation within 24 hours of T-SC declaring on shark with a major SIN figure were he complained that we beat SIN to the punch, so based on that convo i am pretty sure the only reason that DSD south went against shark first is because we declared first otherwise it may have been SIN vs Shark and if SIN left anything for DSD south(which honestly i doubt, even with VIC in the war now i still think SIN will win it because VIC has the same problems SHARK has with waging a war in TBL, simply because DSD south could not take advantage of those weaknesses doesnt mean SIN cant) then we would have taken them on. in fact during the entire newlands war all my regular SIN contacts were constantly asking me to "end the war already so we can take a turn" which tells me they really did want a 1v1 match because if they just wanted to attack shark why wait for them to make peace with DSD south? in fact most of shark leadership has already commented they were suprised it was DSD south that declared first and not SIN. and yes i did take advantage of the fact that shark was worried about SIN entering the war when i took the 2 SS mines from them. i knew T-SC did not have the troops to defend both mines and still fulfill our troop garantes to TVM so i leaked the arrival times for our clearing forces to SIN on the one mine we were not planning on capturing ourselves and i timed the capture to coincide with a SIN/T-SC temp confed due to a terraform/exo on a planned city placement that was agreed to before the war. simply to make shark think we were trying to drag SIN into the war even though i knew SIN would not join this war until after DSD south had come to terms with shark(i did ok this ploy with SIN leadership first and they were like "will it piss of shark? then sure lets go for it"). i already had a discussion with Hal about this, he believes that is an unacceptable ploy in a war while i think anything that can get the job done works but that is between the 2 of us and i am pretty sure we can both see the others point of view whether we agree or not. now to bring this back to the post i am quoting, no i dont think this was a planned op, i think shark has just pissed off too many TBL only players/alliances with their actions and the repercussions are all hitting them at the same time, honestly my question would be, "if SIN doesnt teach them a lesson then who is the next TBL powerbloc that will try?"
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Posted By: Bobtron
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 02:39
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Below is my own opinion and mine only, it is not representative of alizes' views: Why are you guys throwing a hissy fit over VIC declaring on SIN, and that it is "unfair" for a smaller alliance to have to 2v1? From what I have read on the Times and this thread, it seems to me that SIN has declared a War of Aggression, with no Casus Belli whatsoever. (although, to make their standpoint at little less controversial, they have conjured up some "challenge" bs) Shark has no obligation for completely abide by an aggressor's terms, and as defenders, they have every right to call on confeds. In addition, if such an aggressive alliance declares war on another alliance with no cb, nearby alliances would have every right to stop such aggressiveness. SIN asked for it. ------------- I support the Undying Flame! |
Posted By: Dent
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 04:39
| TUF's justification for why they with LePue in their roster are getting involved is going to take some explaining to their members, never mind the rest of us. |
Posted By: madmano
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 06:48
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ok i see this becoming one of the long forums post showing hate, well i also noticed storm is being spoken of, so i wish to make few points clear, 1) storm is pure neutral,(this doesnt means we wont take part in war or something like that,it means we take no sides we see what is best for us and we proceed). 2)few people hate pile up and pelli is one of them, im sure most of you guys remember how pico got his 800k troops killed by sieging a small player(piled on him). 3)basically people thinks that storm was formed to fight with shark in elgea, while sin takes care of them in bl,i want to say this is not true. storm was formed with one reason to make a pure neutral allaince. 4)i noticed people talking about whether shark asked help or not.from what i have hear and seen im pretty sure they asked for help.(this was even noticed in gc by many). From my point of view, An allaince has right to challenge a 1 on 1 with another while the other can accept the challenge or ask their allies for help (thats what allies are for) shark have asked help for some strategic reason which is not wrong,it is their choice to accept the challenge or not. and in same manner allies can accept the request or say no, i know few of the allies of shark said no ,respecting the 1 vs 1 war, but invictus chose to ignore it and help shark(for which they got right as they are allies) and given them got some bad history with sin. i dont know why people are fighting in forums for this and pulling other allaince and trying to escalate the war. im sure that sin can handle both vic and shark. so thats it, i would like to make the stance of storm clear, we are neutral. |
Posted By: jcx
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 07:53
is this for a 2 years old kid? Because it seems like I am reading a bed time story... ------------- Disclaimer: The above is jcx|orcboy's personal opinion and is not the opinion or policy of Harmless? [H?] or of the little green men that have been following him all day. jcx in H? | orcboy in H? |
Posted By: BARQ
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 08:49
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sooooooo much explanations . i will say just few words . shark can call there allies for help in a war against a single and small alliance but after that they can't claim they are best and no 1 alliance in illy. and something about other comments. if SIN had an agreement with TVM and co. then why would they let them make peace with SHARK . they could have declared at the same time when SHARK was fighting with DSD south. and if Storm is formed to fight against SHARK . then they should should have formed it earlier . as in current conditions they are just organising themselves and can't go for a big war at this time
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Posted By: madmano
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 11:18
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These are the words of .mjolnir first and to all. I came to heat to help prop up an old alliance with many inactive accts. we tried for while and then merge thought came to mind. as independant member of heat I asked around to some who are aware. they declined for thier own reasons and I wish all well. I chanced to speak with pellinell one day and I said heat was looking to merge and make an all active alliance at which point he caught me by surprise with a statement to similar effect. we parted company in the chat and few days passed. I contacted him and we began a formal negotiation as to a merger. when all was of satisfactory for both we made storm. Storm is neutral with regards to all lasting nap and confed. we are well able to defend our interests even now and we are dedicated to this prospect. While we will not engage in this war does not mean we not engage in war. this is a war game. As madmano previously stated in this forum thread, when and if we go to war, it will be to serve the interests of our members liberty, prosperity, and a strategic advantage for the alliance as a group. As to the present war. Storm has no interest in this issue as is pertains to us not at all. As an alliance we wish to engage all alliances with a congenial diplomacy and we are happy and quite willing to be of aid to all whom may have a need. all trading will be done through the market for the sake of transparancy. As to the feelings of our members we encourage all to voice the feelings in a game of community. We do not expect all to feel the same way all the time. We enjoy the diversity of thought and direction. vibrant and enthusiastic. we do feel it good for the game. This is same in Storm. we are all met from different roads and backrounds different humors and style. we have undertaken to put forward a desire to push these things down and lift instead a grooup of willing players to attempt what is possible and have some fun and friendship with former enemies and combatants. deeds alone are the full measure of all. the rest is propaganda. As to the present war I am sure all expect confeds to be ulitized in a game which provides for them. I am happy to say I have respect for players on both sides and I wish each side a good fortune in the hostilities. Illy is a game of smart people and high ego where all have the wise words. I think each side likes thier alliance and wish to engage the enemy so to speak. I hope this is done in as good a sportmanship as war allows and when the war is over the winners will be generous victors. The finest quality of the victor is the ability to be merciful to those that have been vanquished. I am happy to see people enjoy the game and play in the style that suits them. Each is the architect of their own destiny. thanks and cheers to all |
Posted By: asr
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 12:27
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Sin is full military alliance with active players. What i have seen and they have proved it. This is no secret that big alliances are having players who are logging in once every week or so, and many are not military oriented nor don't care about crunching numbers or watching clock to send troops, not even waking up middle of the night to specially send troops on a game. So it is perfectly normal that Sin dominates on war. When i heard that Sin declared on Shark i was happy because i can now enter on a war, i quited being a builder and started changing sovs but now i have lost interest: its too much work. I'm tired already. Its stressful and no fun at all. Good luck everyone. |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 13:36
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There is some danger to escalation, as that encourages both sides to keep bringing in allies, increasing confusion and potential damage. However, it doesn't seem very practical that SHARK would accept defeat by a challenger when they had the option to call upon nearby allies. Especially not on the challenger's terms. Whether or not that invalidates SHARK's status as the #1 alliance is purely a matter of (very biased) opinion. Storm's neutrality seems genuine. If it's a plot, it must be a very elaborate one. |
Posted By: Lord Moonpie
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 13:47
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There was never an agreement between SIN and TVM, the only agreements were between DSD South members RE and T-SC. Sorry to disappoint, I love a good conspiracy myself, but there simply wasn't one here ------------- I am Lord Moonpie, Praetor Diplomaticus of Trivium. The above statements are my own opinions and do not reflect the opinions or policies of Trivium unless otherwise stated. |
Posted By: Venita
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 14:41
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Wow No wonder I don't read the forums much. Too many people verbally bashing each other. I am going to make a couple comments and that is all. Congrats Sir Brad aka Stuk, you were known as the Villian in NC and if you read this link, now SHARK is the villian.  (kinda fun being the villian isn't it Stuk?? this is stated with humor in my voice in case you cannot hear me )I do not think that SIN and TVM had any agreement prior until towards the end of the war. I DO think that SIN decided to take advantage of a situation where we were low on troops in Newlands due to the recent war, and even had "rumors" of Christmas of the next war from SIN. I was not shocked AT ALL when they declared early. That is how they operate. Why SHOULD they let us have a breather?? Makes no sense to do so, if you are on their side. They did the correct strategy. I would have recommended attack myself, if I was in their alliance. Many SIN members are excellent military players. There are MANY (and I won't name anyone) that are SCARED of SIN! Well I am not. This is a game , one that I love to play and engage others in battle. Should I lose, pffft big deal, I shall dust off my clothes, get back up and rebuild. I would also like to know WHICH alliances, if declared on by SIN would NOT be asking their CONFEDS for help????? Is that not what a confed means????? perhaps I need a new dictionary.... May we all take a step BACK, remember this is a MILITARY GAME.... leave the pettiness out of it. Let's keep this FUN ... this is my personal view  If you reply to it, don't expect an additional answer from me, I am way too busy trying to figure out how to attack SIN lmao!! Hey Pell I dont have a billion (troops you know lol) , but how about one beer???? |
Posted By: Agalloch
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 17:50
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You know I cant keep from chuckling whenever I read some of the BS people say here, I havent been playing this game for even a year yet and was involved in one war so far only but I do remember being dog piled on by some of the very players complaining here about it!!! Some didn't even bother declaring .. Not being a cry baby just pointing some of the obvious mistakes stated here since mano seems to think pico did the dog pilling I think it was 8 alliances vs what 8 or 10 players? Anyways sorry for the interruption go back to presenting your point of views :P
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Posted By: Lotharblack
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 19:14
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Forum war is brutal so far , certainly more than the actual one :P ------------- Lord Loth |
Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 20:13
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Posted By: Pellinell
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 21:12
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He's likely reffering to T-O stomping Stomps armies. What he fails to mention is Takeda was away and could not defend his city, thus SC asked us to remove the siege. We did and Pico declared war. (Lucky for him I was away on business or I'd of razed a few of his cities to make a point.) Not even in the same category as what is happening now. But when you have no defense for your BS it's not easy making stuff up! And I'm not "complaining" just pointing out what I believe is a pile on. |
Posted By: Pico
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 21:39
| what point is that? that I can´t challenge an alliance with a land claim? what´s the point of having one then?? 1 player vs 1 alliance and T-O and other confeds of T-SC need to step up and clear the siege?? Please, have some common sense when posting. |
Posted By: Pellinell
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 22:36
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Oh did I upset poco ? Maybe when picking a fight with an alliance choose an active target (I know that puts you at a disadvantage but may save you some trouble) And you deared war on T-O, they didn't declare on you. |
Posted By: Jax
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 22:43
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Honor confeds and call them to aid if you need them, yea. The point is though, did shark call vic to their aid or not and do they really need vic to help them in the war against sin. Otherwise it just looks tyrannical. Unless shark is really that scared of sin. And the Stomps war was a more complicated than this one; Stomps policy was basically to destroy all land claims which was their reason for the war with T-SC. It couldn't have gotten more obvious that they were going for one alliance at a time that had a land claim. That is why the coalition was formed. Whereas in this war, they haven't made the stupid mistake of saying what they will do post-war(which was keep going to war with lc alliances lol[stomp]) before it actually happens. And the reason Vic decided to join the war hasn't been expressed really. Is it because that sin will make them force them to recognize land claim policies if they win(even though shark's post-newlands war policy on trivium was no better than one which is quite controversial)? The post by DDL(an anonymous vic leader im assuming) is saying that Shark cannot 1vs1 with Sin which makes no sense when they are literally the top alliance in the game(unless your'e saying shark wasted everything they had in the newlands war which i find hard to believe), especially now that two of the top alliances are going against sin. It just looks wrong; sin is the lesser evil in this war imo. And people who say that SIN looks like the heroine in this war, there's no such thing- the good vs. evil ideal does not exist. There's only evil vs. evil.
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Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2015 at 01:54
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Leaving all the rhetoric aside for a sec...."evil"? I can only assume you use it as a trope. This game allows us to define ourselves and regardless of what we say or do HERE, we are neither good nor evil. The heroes are those who we choose to side with. This war is a continuation of the previous wars. War begets war and so it goes. ------------- |
Posted By: Dent
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2015 at 02:45
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Karl Aegis went very quiet after it was pointed out that LePue was hiding under TUF's skirt and making moves. |
Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2015 at 03:52
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Posted By: madmano
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2015 at 04:07
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well what i wanted to say was, pico wanted to fight lc and went against 1 allaince, decided to send 800k troops siege at one inactive t-sc player in elgea, since the travelling times from bl to elgea are long and given that the player was inactive no chance of prestige build, so t-sc called their allies to help, which t-o did, pico wanted to fight 1 lc allaince at a time. since pico was going against lc, all the lc allaince declared on him,(which can be considered pile up) the same is happening now, sin wanted to fight shark 1 vs 1, shark called their allies(possibly i assume because of travel times from elgea are longer, same as in case of t-sc) and now sin is being piled upon. i hope im clear this time. sorry for confusion. |
Posted By: Arian
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2015 at 11:47
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@ Madmano Where do you get the idea that Pico wanted to fight 1 land claiming alliance at a time? Stomps (Shark and Pico's alter ego) entire resume was about fighting ALL land claiming, as was ALL their rhetoric. The fact that they started out small doesn't detract from the fact that the ENTIRE ALLIANCE was founded for the express purpose of battering land claimers. I don't consider that alliances, who know they will be targeted - Given it was all across Stomps profile that's a no-brainer, and decide to take pro active action ahead of such attacks are in any way piling on. So then we move on to the Newlands war. A land claiming alliance already in place there, finds Shark landing cities in its area and ignoring its borders. The reason given for this by Shark is that Newlands is strategically central to the entire continent and as such is required by them so that they can get to everywhere easily for wars and tournies,............. ummm, right - not threatening at all then. The Shark presence in BL taking into account their Chulbran holdings (btw anyone know why Shark are in Chulbran given that their stated intention apparently 8-9 months ago was to settle in Newlands? - Did they get lost?), was even then pretty much as large as the alliance they were deliberately taunting and certainly was more militaristic and geared up for war. Shark also used much the same rhetoric as Stomps had done previously (as it was probably written by the same person that's hardly surprising). So three fairly unprepared but local land claiming alliances decided to take them on. Given that Shark/PicoStomps stated intentions were to prevent land claiming they were already targets and knew it. The combined might of all three was less than Shark and certainly the combined military of them wasn't prepared for Shark armies - Hardly a pile on. However after Shark won that war Sin not wanting Shark to settle in for the long build and regroup is entirely sensible - given that they also are a target for Sharks anti land claim propaganda and were almost certainly an intended war target. Even Shark players admit as much. NOWHERE has Sin (or any other land claiming alliance for that matter) stated they intend to wipe out all NON land claiming alliances, or make it compulsory for all alliances in Broken Lands to go over to Land claiming. (So you can't settle in a few spots - not really a big deal considering the entire land claiming area of all land claiming alliances is only a fraction of available land, not always the best places and sometimes a bit of diplomacy would sort it out anyway.) This is directly opposite to Shark/PicoStomp, whose stated intentions are to remove and prevent land claiming, who by that policy are signalling their warlike intentions, and who want a central area already occupied by other alliances so that they can move around and get to wars easier. I have neither heard nor seen any evidence that Invictus in BL were threatened by Sin. There is absolutely no evidence that Sin intended to attack anyone else other than an alliance which has stated goals of wiping land claims off the map. Alliances piling in against Sin have their own agendas I am sure, would be interesting to know what those really are, Shark shouldn't need any help given their size and much vaunted military ability. ------------- 'Do you want ice with that?' |
Posted By: asr
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2015 at 11:49
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Posted By: asr
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2015 at 11:51
To feed the feeling of "i have big armies etc" makes it worth to keep them. Recently the standards have gone way too up and its hard to compete with the predators.
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