Thoughts Triggered by Tolstoy's A Confession
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Topic: Thoughts Triggered by Tolstoy's A Confession
Posted By: ajqtrz
Subject: Thoughts Triggered by Tolstoy's A Confession
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2015 at 21:26
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Thoughts Triggered by
Tolstoy's A Confession
For Angrim
WARNING: This is a LONG and complex article. If you do not favor lengthy posts about
esoteric subjects and/or do not desire to discuss them with civility and
thought, you probably will wish to skip this post altogether.
[Part 1: What Tolstoy Said]
--"For man to be able to live he must either not
see the infinite, or have such an explanation of the meaning of life as will
connect the finite with the infinite."--
Many
people, like Leo Tolstoy, author of War and Peace, Anna Karenina, and other
works, after considerable success entered into a stage of great depression
where he pondered the question, "what is the meaning of life?" He speaks of his circle as "us very
liberal and learned people," who have arrived at great knowledge, but
found in that knowledge no answer is to why we are here. And like author of Ecclesiastes, Tolstoy
echo's the conclusion, "Emptiness and Emptiness, all is empty like trying
to catch the wind."
This,
conclusion has been shared by many over the long course of human history and is
felt and experienced most people at one time or another in their lives. Tolstoy, after a long struggle in which he
ponders the answers given by philosophy, science and religion, concludes that
if you want to find the answer to the meaning of life you should not look to
those who, like yourself, have lost any sense that life is meaningful, and
instead not so much what has been said on the subject, but what people do in
light of the question. In his own circle
he finds four responses.
First,
as he says, some people choose to remain ignorant of the question itself. I imagine they would, when asked "what
is the meaning of life" respond with, "who know's and who
cares?" A perfectly reasonable
response if one has concluded, as many did in Tolstoy's day, that there is no
meaning to anything. By making the
question absurd they can ignore the absurdity the question reveals about their
own lives.
A
second group decides to just enjoy life.
The nagging question of "why even do that" may echo in the
back of their minds, but they enter into a state of somnolence by drugging
themselves with as much worldly stimulation as possible. Perpetually drunk on experience they have
little to no time for questions difficult and maybe impossible to answer.
A
third group, Tolstoy identifies, do what he seems to say is the proper response
to the meaninglessness of it all. They
check out. As he says:
"The third escape
is that of strength and energy. It consists in destroying life, when one has
understood that it is an evil and an absurdity. A few exceptionally strong and
consistent people act so. Having understood the stupidity of the joke that has
been played on them, and having understood that it is better to be dead than to
be alive, and that it is best of all not to exist, they act accordingly and
promptly end this stupid joke, since there are means: a rope round one’s neck,
water, a knife to stick into one’s heart, or the trains on the railways; and
the number of those of our circle who act in this way becomes greater and
greater, and for the most part they act so at the best time of their life, when
the strength of their mind is in full bloom and few habits degrading to the
mind have as yet been acquired..."
And
the fourth group, he says, is the way of the weak:
"It consists in
seeing the truth of the situation and yet clinging to life, knowing in advance
that nothing can come of it. People of this kind know that death is better than
life, but not having the strength to act rationally — to end the deception
quickly and kill themselves — they seem to wait for something. This is the
escape of weakness, for if I know what is best and it is within my power, why
not yield to what is best?"
The
first two and the last answer to the question, seem to Tolstoy, to be not worth
a lot of effort exploring as they lead nowhere.
So he ponders why he doesn't, himself, follow the third natural response
to the emptiness he feels and which is supported by the conclusions of
philosophy and science. And it is at
this point that he comes to discover an assumption upon which the entire
edifice of meaninglessness has rested: that enough is known to draw the
conclusion drawn. In other words, he
begins to doubt the "progress" that has been made in religion,
philosophy, science and modern society. And from this he notes that some have
found, or seem to have found, that life has meaning. He ponders how many of those who work the
fields seem to believe, and find hope in the idea that life has meaning.
"The reasoning
showing the vanity of life is not so difficult, and has long been familiar to
the very simplest folk; yet they have lived and still live. How is it they all
live and never think of doubting the reasonableness of life?.... And those
fools — the enormous masses of people — know nothing about how everything
organic and inorganic in the world is arranged; but they live, and it seems to
them that their life is very wisely arranged! . . . "
At which point it strikes him that he could be entirely
wrong . He begins to doubt the very conclusion that
reason itself, as presented by the "liberal and learned" among whom
he lives, can answer the question. Perhaps, he
thinks, the conclusion that life has no meaning, is itself incorrect.
Putting
these two ideas together, that his learned friends and the conclusions they
have drawn could be in error, and that he, himself, is fallible, he begins to
re-evaluate the position of the "unlearned masses" whom he has
considered unworthy of consideration:
"And it struck
me: “But what if there is something I do not yet know? Ignorance behaves just
in that way. Ignorance always says just what I am saying. When it does not know
something, it says that what it does not know is stupid. Indeed, it appears
that there is a whole humanity that lived and lives as if it understood the
meaning of its life, for without understanding it could not live; but I say
that all this life is senseless and that I cannot live."
Finding
it unreasonable to ask the blind what they see, he says:
"...if I wished
to live and understand the meaning of life, I must seek this meaning not among
those who have lost it and wish to kill themselves, but among those milliards
of the past and the present who make life and who support the burden of their
own lives and of ours also."
He decries the state of "lunacy" in which he has
lived his life and declares that,
In the delusion of my pride of intellect it
seemed to me so indubitable that I and Solomon and Schopenhauer had stated the
question so truly and exactly that nothing else was possible — so indubitable
did it seem that all those milliards consisted of men who had not yet arrived
at an apprehension of all the profundity of the question — that I sought for
the meaning of my life without it once occurring to me to ask: “But what
meaning is and has been given to their lives by all the milliards of common
folk who live and have lived in the world?”
And so it is to the "common folk" with whom he has
rubbed shoulders his entire life and yet considered intellectually inferior
that he now turns. And in doing so,
makes some interesting observations.
First, he comes to see, that those "common folk"
"are not so stupid as we suppose."
That they have discovered and found meaning where the intellectuals have
only found emptiness makes him wonder about the wisdom of the
intellectuals. But it also makes him
wonder about the efficacy of reason itself.
"Rational
knowledge presented by the learned and wise, denies the meaning of life, but
the enormous masses of men, the whole of mankind receive that meaning in
irrational knowledge. And that irrational knowledge is faith, that very thing
which I could not but reject. It is God, One in Three; the creation in six
days; the devils and angels, and all the rest that I cannot accept as long as I
retain my reason."
At which point he comes to a crises for, as he says:
"My position was terrible. I knew I could find nothing
along the path of reasonable knowledge except a denial of life; and there — in
faith — was nothing but a denial of reason, which was yet more impossible for
me than a denial of life. From rational knowledge it appeared that life is an
evil, people know this and it is in their power to end life; yet they lived and
still live, and I myself live, though I have long known that life is senseless
and an evil. By faith it appears that in order to understand the meaning of
life I must renounce my reason,..."
Out of which, he concludes:
"[T]here were two exits. Either that which I called
reason was not so rational as I supposed, or that which seemed to me irrational
was not so irrational as I supposed."
Having been driven to re-examine the reasonableness of his
position he discovers a significant error.
He says that he has thought of the question of "the meaning of
life" in "infinite" terms.
In other words, the question he has asked, is" "What, in
eternity, is the meaning of my life."
And like a drop of water dripped into the ocean, he can find no real
answer. The vastness of the ocean is so
great that discovering the impact a drop of water has upon the state of that
ocean in a thousand years or a million years would seem to be impossible, and
this desire to know the impact of his own life upon eternity is so far beyond
any abilities of reason he concludes that reason cannot answer the question at
all.
"I asked: “What
is the meaning of my life, beyond time, cause, and space?” And I replied to
quite another question: “What is the meaning of my life within time, cause, and
space?” With the result that, after long efforts of thought, the answer I
reached was: “None.”
The question he asked, was one of eternal significance, but
as he examined his own life kept asking what the significance he would have
within history (i.e. "time, cause, and space"). The distinction between the
"eternal" ....i.e. that which is beyond or outside of "mere
history" and that which is bounded by history, is important to Tolstoy as
he recognizes that anything within history is bound to decay and destruction,
so anything done in history is meaningless.
His determination after having come to this conclusion was,
"Having
understood this, I understood that it was not possible to seek in rational
knowledge for a reply to my question, and that the reply given by rational
knowledge is a mere indication that a reply can only be obtained by a different
statement of the question and only when the relation of the finite to the
infinite is included in the question. And I understood that, however irrational
and distorted might be the replies given by faith, they have this advantage,
that they introduce into every answer a relation between the finite and the
infinite, without which there can be no solution."
And from this, he continues:
"So that besides
rational knowledge, which had seemed to me the only knowledge, I was inevitably
brought to acknowledge that all live humanity has another irrational knowledge
— faith which makes it possible to live. Faith still remained to me as
irrational as it was before, but I could not but admit that it alone gives mankind
a reply to the questions of life, and that consequently it makes life
possible."
[End of Part I: What Tolstoy Said]
AJ
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Replies:
Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2015 at 21:29
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Thoughts Triggered by
Tolstoy's A Confession
For Angrim
WARNING: This is Part II of a LONG and complex article. If you do not favor lengthy posts about
esoteric subjects and/or do not desire to discuss them with civility and
thought, you probably will wish to skip this post altogether.
[Part II: Thoughts on What Tolstoy Said]
Tolstoy's A Confession follows a similar line of reasoning
as Kierkegaard's. And while Kierkegaard
predates Tolstoy by a few decades, both men lived in the shadow of a tying enlightenment
belief in the powers of rationalism, and both subscribed to a common cultural
bias among the educated, that the traditional forms of faith held to by the
masses, were inherently irrational. Some
scholars, myself included, tend to view this period of history as the last gasp
of the Enlightenment who's hey day was
fifty to one hundred years earlier and which, by this time comes to some sort
of pinnacle from which mankind stares off into the vastness of a cold, dark and
empty universe, and finds nobody looking back.
The response to the coldness in Kierkegaard and later in
Tolstoy is to turn to faith. But the
faith of which they speak is not anything like that which was "once
delivered to the saints." Both men,
having followed the modernist faith (delivered to them by a different set of
saint), with its' assumptions about rationality and the actual state of things,
discover that path ends in a night time garden of decay and despair, and both
men argue that the only reasonable thing to do is to pretend the plants are all
living and the sun is shining brightly.
Kierkegaard argues that this leap of faith is the will of
God as that which is least rational calls for the greatest faith and thus, God
is well pleased by the leap we make without hope of being caught. The more irrational the faith, Kierkegaard
argues, the more one should make the leap.
Tolstoy appears to step back and require a different kind of irrational
faith, but his view still pits the irrational against the rational and asks for
a choice. Tolstoy argues for a leap to
believing that the natural man demonstrates evidence of faith and thus, one can
simply accord to the natural man a rationality which cannot be encompassed by
reason alone.
In other words, Tolstoy, following the romantic idea of a
"great soul" present in those closest to nature (and thus more
valuable) makes the leap to romanticism as he discovers the faith of the common
(irrational) man and in it "the evidence of things hoped for." Yet, in this both men reflect existentialism
with it's emphasis on independence and
willful living. And both men, I think,
give in too early because they assume too much about rationality, reason and
what we really know about anything. In
other words, they demonstrate a naive faith in the very structures of reasoning
by which men and women discover or miss discovering what it true and real.
Let's ask ourselves what these men assume in their desire to
be rational, a desire which they contrast to faith, and which, to some degree
both find unrewarding and which Tolstoy labels "lunacy." They assume that the rationality of which
they are capable is the end point of rationality itself. But is it?
Are the forms of reasoning experienced by the human mind the only forms
possible? To answer this we must first
ask what is human reasoning and what are it's limits?
The human mind is actually two minds. A right and a left hemisphere joined by a
bundle of nerve fibers called the corpus callosum. When this bundle is cut by a procedure called
corpus callosotomy or is naturally
missing or damaged (a condition called Agenesis), it is possible to test the
effects and in doing so to find that each side of the human mind is able to
comprehend certain forms of metaphor or metonymy, but not the other. The right brain comprehends metonymy and the
left metaphor. Metonymy, if you remember
your high school English, has to do with contiguity, the placement or
relationship of things in the immediate environment. Metaphor concerns things in parallel
relationship where you use a known set of relationships to characterize or
reveal the relationships in another set.
The classical metonymic example is "forty head of
cattle," with the "head" representing metonymically, the entire
cow. Because the rest of the cow must be
present for the head to be there, we extrapolate to understand the presence of
the whole. The usefulness of this method
of perception is that we also use the same function to pick up clues from our
environment and to make decisions. For
instance, if it's late at night and we her some growling in the bushes and see
a couple of large eyes staring out at us, we don't need to fully investigate if
there is a tiger there before we run!
Metonymy allows to extrapolate from clues (which are parts of something) in our immediate environment and thus, to
take action against potential threats.
Metonymy measures the significance of things in our immediate
environment.
There are a number of definitions of metaphor as it is
larger subject and more varied in it's application than metonymy. But for purposes of this we focus on the
parallelism of metaphors as they structure experience into meaning. One class of metaphor is the analogy. In fact, some scholars, myself included, tend
to think all language is analogous. If
you examine any language on the planet you will find there are what we call
prepositions in English...words denoting the relationship of categories of
objects and actions (nouns and verbs) to each other. "With, upon, over, under, in, to,
etc...are preposition denoting relationships, all of which are themselves
analogies to physical space and time.
This observation was first put forth by Aristotle in De Anima when he
equated reasoning with "the proportional mental space" with our mind,
"not unlike that of geometry."
Languages reflect the four dimensions of human experience and borrow
from those experiences to create understandings. Thus, language is analogous.
Analogy is a sub-set of metaphor and the symbolic systems we
use to explain things to ourselves (i.e. to understand) represent a complex
desire to be ourselves, significant.
Which brings us back to Tolstoy.
Tolstoy's journey began with a set of assumptions, among
which was that his own understanding of the "real" was true. In other words, having learned at the feet of
various scholars that in the end nothing he did had any eternal significance,
he believed them and faced what that meant.
From the same scholars he learned that the average person does not know
enough to warrant being listened to, and that whatever the average person, the
"common folk" believed was irrational at best. It is interesting to note that this process
of throwing off the beliefs of the less sophisticated academic environments is
still common today. Seldom are the students
of our modern universities told that the "uneducated" have anything
to say to academia, but it is assumed that academia has much to say to the
common folk. I won't get side tracked
with what that might mean to open debate, but suffice it to say I find the
attitude pretty elitist.
In any case, what Tolstoy begins to discover through his
severe depression is that, given his assumptions he cannot be both faithful
(i.e. full of faith) and rational at the same time. My personal feeling is that he is
mistaken. I think the true error of his
thinking was two fold, and I might add, Kierkegaard also falls into the same
error.
Smart people and quite accomplished often run circles around
those who have less education and experience.
And if those smart people are leaders taking stances they begin to
sincerely believe their own spin.
"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely," is
paralleled by "Knowledge informs, but absolute knowledge just makes you
stupid." I say that because the
number one problem facing smart people is not what they know but what they
think they know and never go back and ask again. I think of David Hume in this regard who, at
the end of his life declared that he no longer considered any arguments about
the existence of God because it was just a waste of his time considering he had
proved that God is not.
Anytime I hear somebody say they have "proved"
something I wonder what standards they are using. In Hume's case, one of his more famous
utterances was on Miracles where he argued that looking into a claim of a
miracle is a waste of time because they don't happen. His logic runs like this: examine all the
things that are not claimed to be miraculous.
If, in that set you find no miracles then the chances of a miracle are 0
and you have proved that miracles don't exist.
I studied this in graduate school, and I kid you not! Of course my professor pointed out that my
use of probabilities and sets as a basis of the critique would not have worked
in Hume's day, as there was no formal understanding of those things in that
day. Which demonstrates my point: if you
think you have proved something today, don't worry, tomorrow is another day and
further evidence may show you that you were wrong.
Thus the problem with Kierkegaard and Tolstoy, (and Hume or
course) to some extent is the certainty in which they endow themselves about
matters of which they may not know as much a they think. As I described above, the human mind is
really two minds, one dealing with the immediate environment, the other the
meaning of that environment through time.
One side understands metonymy, the other metaphor. But of course, and here's the kicker, one can
suppose there may be other methods of understanding, but one cannot conceive of
what they might be. Similar to what AS
J.B.S. Haldane, noted about the universe: "The Universe is not only
queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose," I would say
that while the human mind can comprehend much, what may be needed to comprehend
the universe may be an entirely new mind altogether.
Now for that central question of Tolstoy's that sent him off
on his journey, I would say that he is correct that the question of meaning is
both infinite and finite. We are of two
minds. When we comprehend ourselves we do so in the here and now. Thus what we want to be significant, to have
meaning is what we are doing in the relative short term of now, with only the
slightest nod in the direction of the future.
Most people who experience things do so with an eye toward something in
the future, but that future is, at best, a few years or maybe decades into
their future. Thus, it is the relative
"today" that concerns them. At
the same time though, they recognize that whatever they are doing
"today" may have an impact upon the "forever." Ideally we want what we are doing has both
significance in the here and now of our brief visit to planet Earth, but also
impacts the eternal heavens. That is the
finite and the infinite of meaning we seek.
Tolstoy, I believe, thought it impossible that voices singing in a
church in Toledo
would be heard at the throne of God, but I'm not so sure. And that gives me hope. For stranger things may be just around the
corner.
AJ
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Posted By: Granlik
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2015 at 22:42
Settles down in armchair with pipe fully charged with Old Holborn Shag and a full cup of Dutch strong coffee. Waits for various comments to appear below.
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Posted By: twilights
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2015 at 01:16
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Thanks for reminding me that I need to go...and there is a saying that a well fed cow should be left in the fields until the morning...we can say the same for this topic....
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Posted By: Artefore
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2015 at 08:17
Where do you get the time to do this?
------------- "don't quote me on that" -Artefore
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Posted By: Thexion
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2015 at 20:17
In my humble opinion as radical it might be "Meaning of life" is mainly human hubris. Why would life need any other meaning than it already has? Does human life need any higher meaning than all the rest of the life in the world? Regardless what you do life has a connection to infinite all your actions and decisions will make small changes that cannot be undone.
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2015 at 21:06
Thexion, you are right, I believe, that what you do makes small changes, but knowing of those changes are eternal is different than knowing that they last for some time or other. The usual formation of the question "Does what I do have meaning," when looked at from a perspective of the infinite ends with a question mark. We really only know the significance or effect of what we have done when we can measure it...and our abilities to measure the impact of what we are doing fades very rapidly as we look to the future. But we are wired to the infinite and to the finite. Most people, I think, want to believe that what they are about here and now is important, but to know it's important they have to conjecture a future state of things where what they are doing right now has helped create. In fact, even if they were to suppose that what they are doing now has a measurable impact a million years from now, they still have to contend with the question of if it will still have measurable impact on things two million years from now, and then three...and so on.
As for it being human hubris, as I understand the use of hubris, it means a bit of foolish pride. Perhaps people do take too much stock in being but to some without "faith, hope and love" life is depressing. And since depressed people sometimes end their own lives, from an evolutionary standpoint it would seem developing an answer to the question of "why" may be natures way of preserving the gene pool. In other words, the question itself may be genetically driven.
Why the human mind wants to have meaning is, I think, a significant question. Being is its own meaning, as somebody once said, but the quality of being counts too. My personal belief is that it all boils down to the structures of the mind and our use of language.
Artefore, two things about where I get the time: 1) I type like a madman ..about 85 wpm or more when I really get going; and 2) most of what I write about I've been writing about for forty years or so, give or take. So I have a wealth of experience writing about things and a large storehouse of information/readings etc...from which to draw. And I actually like this type of thing.
Twi, I'm not sure why such an interesting topic should be left in the fields. I personally like this cow and the free intellectual milk isn't too bad either.
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Posted By: twilights
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2015 at 21:54
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Did I say cow...I meant goat...of course it is a well known practice to lock away the farm animals when your around and it seems you got a major Jones for dogs if we can judge from the subjects you pick for your topics......grins....I would also like to point out that rikoo is finally allowing fee expression in the forums which is much needed to make an online MMO game successful and I want to congrats him for adopting new lengency
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2015 at 00:11
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I think it's possible that we create our own meanings, and that the meanings we create can lead to misery or contentment. This is both powerful and dangerous. Powerful because we may create meanings that lead us to attempt to change circumstance. Dangerous because our attempts to change circumstance may go awry -- or may work perfectly, with disastrous results.
As an aside, I think that the distinctions made between "right brain function" and "left brain function" are generally too broadly drawn in your comments. While there may be some broad truth to it, the distinction between metaphor and metonymy in my opinion is an attempt to force reality into a set of already conceived boxes.
I say this as a person who has experienced a Wada test. (Read the wikipedia article on dual brain theory in which the Wada is referenced here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_brain_theory" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_brain_theory .)
My personal experience tends to support some aspects of dual-brain theory, but also makes me cautious about relying on simplistic explanations for brain function. For example, one could also suggest that the verbal/non-verbal association is related not to left vs. right brain but to amygdala vs. hippocampal processing of memories -- that is, how memories are encoded. I encourage you to look further into the work being done in that area, particularly with regard to traumatic memory.
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Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2015 at 01:26
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Asking questions is a natural process of the mind we have been given by evolution. We evolved to wonder where the food is and what obstacles are in our way. As the modern world eliminates the minute by minute focus on survival, the falling away of objective struggle gives us time to either build on our own subjective struggle or focus on different questions. Letting go of the falsities of the river of words that swirl around in our heads is the only way to gain the focus needed to see which is which.
The relative comfort of modern life gives us the opportunity to expand and expound on questions. We seek answers from where we feel the best answers will come but in the end, the answers we give ourselves are the most profound.
I went through the process. I began with faith and felt there had to be more. I questioned and realized faith was taught to me, as I truly had none. I realized meaning was illusion and immediately fixated on death. Even with that dawning of infinity, I never had even an inkling of desire to end my own life.
At some point I understood that my existence would be what I made it. Having been born with a desire to live, I began assigning my own meaning to life. Once I did that, realizing that what I willed could actually be, I focused on being happy.
------------- Bonfyr Verboo
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2015 at 03:19
Rill wrote:
I think it's possible that we create our own meanings, and that the meanings we create can lead to misery or contentment. This is both powerful and dangerous. Powerful because we may create meanings that lead us to attempt to change circumstance. Dangerous because our attempts to change circumstance may go awry -- or may work perfectly, with disastrous results.
As an aside, I think that the distinctions made between "right brain function" and "left brain function" are generally too broadly drawn in your comments. While there may be some broad truth to it, the distinction between metaphor and metonymy in my opinion is an attempt to force reality into a set of already conceived boxes.
I say this as a person who has experienced a Wada test. (Read the wikipedia article on dual brain theory in which the Wada is referenced here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_brain_theory" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_brain_theory .)
My personal experience tends to support some aspects of dual-brain theory, but also makes me cautious about relying on simplistic explanations for brain function. For example, one could also suggest that the verbal/non-verbal association is related not to left vs. right brain but to amygdala vs. hippocampal processing of memories -- that is, how memories are encoded. I encourage you to look further into the work being done in that area, particularly with regard to traumatic memory.
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I agree that we create our own explanations of life and thus it's meaning. However, there is a limit to which we can go. We may wish to say we are God, but when we try to walk on water we drown. Thus, the narrative we would like to construct of ourselves is always limited by our actual self.
As for the dual brain phenomena, I'm going to post something on that soon......and I'll include the history of the use of metonymic and metaphoric as appropriate and useful terms.
AJ
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2015 at 03:37
abstractdream wrote:
Asking questions is a natural process of the mind we have been given by evolution. We evolved to wonder where the food is and what obstacles are in our way. As the modern world eliminates the minute by minute focus on survival, the falling away of objective struggle gives us time to either build on our own subjective struggle or focus on different questions. Letting go of the falsities of the river of words that swirl around in our heads is the only way to gain the focus needed to see which is which.
The relative comfort of modern life gives us the opportunity to expand and expound on questions. We seek answers from where we feel the best answers will come but in the end, the answers we give ourselves are the most profound.
I went through the process. I began with faith and felt there had to be more. I questioned and realized faith was taught to me, as I truly had none. I realized meaning was illusion and immediately fixated on death. Even with that dawning of infinity, I never had even an inkling of desire to end my own life.
At some point I understood that my existence would be what I made it. Having been born with a desire to live, I began assigning my own meaning to life. Once I did that, realizing that what I willed could actually be, I focused on being happy. |
I'm reminded by your post of Victor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning" in which he says that a man can endure any "how" if he has a reason "why." Not sure what in your post triggered that, but there it is.
I do think that it is impossible to sustain life without a drive to do so, as it is pretty obvious that forms of life without the drive to procreate would be at a severe disadvantage and probably die out pretty quickly. Perhaps the very definition of life is something that has a drive to grow and reproduce itself. Interesting.
In any case, the need to explain life comes from the use of language, I think. Richard Weaver talks about "God and Devil" terms, as does Kenneth Burke (though they use the concepts in different ways, I might add). Both though, understand that language has hierarchical valuations with concepts attached to some words having more impact and others less. In the end I think, since we have a desire to continue we may use language to align the "god terms" with ourselves and the "devil terms" more with our enemies...thus creating a narrative of the hero where we are the main character. Weaver's book, "Ideas Have Consequences" is a short and easy read, btw.
When I was a younger man (some would say when I was a young man but I prefer 'younger;), I thought about the drive to continue. We do so through procreation but we also want our actual self to continue. Genes are fine and we will settle biologically if we must, but most we do wish to do more than procreate, so that we, the individual me, is remembered. I wonder if that comes out of language too.
As for faith, I would argue that you still have it for the beginning of faith is faith in yourself, that you are sane and sensible and thus that it is sane and sensible to put your faith in something. Once you have faith in yourself you can truly explore all sorts of dark alleys.
I once didn't have faith in myself. For a couple years of my life things were pretty dark. But as I healed from the trauma I found I became a much more grateful for the things I have and less desirous of that which I merely dreamed of having.
Well, sorry, I'm rambling a bit here, so I'll stop. Tomorrow I'll explore the relationship between language and meaning I think.
AJ
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2015 at 04:05
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I think it goes both ways. Often the narrative we create about ourselves and the world, rather than any objective "reality" is the most limiting factor. Extreme narcissists and people with thought disorders (especially those experiencing mania) represent the opposite, overestimating their own efficacy and underestimating limitations.
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Posted By: Raco
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2015 at 07:10
Smart rationalists believe in God: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascals_Wager" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager
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Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2015 at 12:26
Raco wrote:
Smart rationalists believe in God: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascals_Wager" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascals_Wager  | No. Someone who wishes to convert "smart rationalists" uses a "what have you got to lose?" argument but it's a silly proposition from 300 years ago. It does, however, allow those who feel comfort in convincing themselves they were moved to faith in God by rational means an air of superiority over those who aren't given to (irrational) leaps.
------------- Bonfyr Verboo
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Posted By: Raco
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2015 at 12:46
I know. I just couldn't resist to post.
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Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2015 at 12:49
ajqtrz wrote:
I'm reminded by your post of Victor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning" in which he says that a man can endure any "how" if he has a reason "why." Not sure what in your post triggered that, but there it is.
I do think that it is impossible to sustain life without a drive to do so, as it is pretty obvious that forms of life without the drive to procreate would be at a severe disadvantage and probably die out pretty quickly. Perhaps the very definition of life is something that has a drive to grow and reproduce itself. Interesting.
In any case, the need to explain life comes from the use of language, I think. Richard Weaver talks about "God and Devil" terms, as does Kenneth Burke (though they use the concepts in different ways, I might add). Both though, understand that language has hierarchical valuations with concepts attached to some words having more impact and others less. In the end I think, since we have a desire to continue we may use language to align the "god terms" with ourselves and the "devil terms" more with our enemies...thus creating a narrative of the hero where we are the main character. Weaver's book, "Ideas Have Consequences" is a short and easy read, btw.
When I was a younger man (some would say when I was a young man but I prefer 'younger;), I thought about the drive to continue. We do so through procreation but we also want our actual self to continue. Genes are fine and we will settle biologically if we must, but most we do wish to do more than procreate, so that we, the individual me, is remembered. I wonder if that comes out of language too.
As for faith, I would argue that you still have it for the beginning of faith is faith in yourself, that you are sane and sensible and thus that it is sane and sensible to put your faith in something. Once you have faith in yourself you can truly explore all sorts of dark alleys.
I once didn't have faith in myself. For a couple years of my life things were pretty dark. But as I healed from the trauma I found I became a much more grateful for the things I have and less desirous of that which I merely dreamed of having.
Well, sorry, I'm rambling a bit here, so I'll stop. Tomorrow I'll explore the relationship between language and meaning I think.
AJ
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When I use the term faith, I generally assign a "higher power" meaning to it. In a broad sense, one could not even make the mechanical motions of life without faith.
I believe your curiosity about where the drive to be remembered comes is a natural extension of the drive to survive. All we do is that. Language, though it has expanded to encompass a myriad of esoteric and existential processes originally developed in a utilitarian role; as a tool. The drive to survive is where everything originates and just as language has grown, so has our understanding of life. When we project ourselves into the future we are faced with the inevitable end of our existence. From a natural evolution of our questioning comes the question of how we achieve immortality. The only attainable answer is, we do that by being remembered.
------------- Bonfyr Verboo
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Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2015 at 17:41
ajqtrz wrote:
Thoughts Triggered by
Tolstoy's A Confession
For Angrim
| might i inquire in what sense this is "for" me?
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2015 at 21:47
Angrim wrote:
ajqtrz wrote:
Thoughts Triggered by
Tolstoy's A Confession
For Angrim
| might i inquire in what sense this is "for" me?
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You've referenced Tolstoy before and I therefore thought of you when I too went to re-read some of his works. Perhaps this is not the Tolstoy of whom you were referring in you references?
For no other reason than that.
AJ
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2016 at 22:16
A short note regarding the desire of meaning. That we can predict things is related to our ability to project. I predict a car is going to crash into a wall as it passes because I can project it's future path leads to the wall. I project that my watch will stop ticking because I know that the energy used to keep it going is finite and time is not. We project into space and time, but also in ideas. We think about power. Then we think about a more powerful person, and a more powerful person than that, and then a more powerful person that than, and so on....until we stop. Why do we stop? Have we hit a wall? No, we have recognized that our imaginations can conceive of a regression so complete that it has no end. Thus, in my mind, one of tools by which we stop the infinite regressions into which we could fall, is to have what I call "capping words" by which we signal that the projection has no ending point. "Infinite" is one word. "God" and "Devil" may be capping words for "good" and "evil." The necessity of having capping words is obvious to anyone who has ever entered into those endless chains of thought you come across when you are a kid.
One of the problems for those who take meaning seriously (or who wish for eternal significance) is that they know that they cannot peek into eternity because they are finite, and thus have no certainty that what they think will last will really last. Or perhaps another way of stating it is that they long to experience the eternal in the finite. There is a book by a famous religious professor who makes the distinction that the religious person tends to see their experiences as eternal while the secular sees them as limited to the here and now. Or as he puts it, "the eternal is collapsed by the religious person into the finite".
In any case, I would suggest that the search of meaning reflects either the individuals ability to tolerate temporal ambiguity or the the desire to close open ended questions.
AJ
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Posted By: Ptolemy
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2016 at 00:56
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Life exists, and once you die, you are gone, except, for your legacy, and that too will eventually fade away. Why than should you procreate? Why should you ask why? Why should you live a second longer? The answer being, this is the only life you got, don't waste it. Ask all the questions you have, in fact, question everything. For when you stop questioning things, you start blindly accepting them, and while that is easier, it is the cowards way out.
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2016 at 03:13
Ptolemy, I recently heard an interview of David Benetar, the author of "Better to Never Have Been Born." His argument, as I understand it is: Once you are born you suffer and no matter how much joy you have the suffering is worse so it would have been better to not have been born."
Now my take on his argument is that he is attempting to quantify something that is unquantifiable except by the one experiencing it. Perhaps in his life suffering outweighs (or better, he perceives it to outweigh) joy, but there is no way to measure the one second of joy I might have against a hundred years of pain and declare for me that it would have been better that I should not have been born. Both joy and suffering are personal and only the one experiencing them is qualified to declare the suffering worth more than the joy (and thus one should sacrifice the joy to avoid the suffering).
A second thing occurs to me in that the joy and suffering I feel are personal, but my existence may be the catalyst of joy or suffering in others. If I have a thousand years of suffering but, by my suffering, I give one person a moment of joy, only I can say if it was worth it.
Thus, internal joy and suffering and the joy and suffering you bring to others may swing the balance, but only within the mind of the one experiencing the joy, the suffering and the giving of both to others.
I suppose it's bit like looking for the perfect wave. You travel the globe, ride thousands, and am never satisfied...until that one perfect day when EVERYTHING is right. Catching that thirty seconds of bliss, to most, makes the years of searching worth the effort.
AJ
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Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2016 at 19:15
confounding pleasure for good and pain for evil would seem to miss the point of a moral code.
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2016 at 23:09
I suspect you may be correct, but only if you are trying to tell another person that their suffering is "good." That we choose to endure pain for ourselves and for others out of a desire for some goal we think worth the suffering, is normal. Athletes and visionaries do it all the time. Most of us do it too. What is saying "no" to a current pleasure in order to reach some future goal, but making suffering into something, in some way, joyful?
The categories of joy and suffering are not black and white and what may appear to be a great pain to one person may, in fact be something another likes. I think of the runners high, the "no pain, no gain" philosophy, and other examples of suffering for a future goal. Perhaps a truly altruistic person may endure a whole lifetime of pain for that one moment of realization that the suffering he or she endured put a smile on a child's face. Who is to say that the suffering wasn't worth the price?
But maybe that's what you meant in the first place. Maybe you mean that pleasure is not necessarily good and pain is not necessarily bad? If so, how does a moral code develop with fuzzy measurements like that?
AJ
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Posted By: KillerPoodle
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2016 at 04:00
I think the argument can be summed up as OMGWTFBBQ.
------------- "This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM
"a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2016 at 23:57
So, KillerPoodle, how does one pronounce "OMGWTFBBQ?" LOL
AJ
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Posted By: Ptolemy
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2016 at 00:30
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Oh my god, what the ****, don't know the rest
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Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2016 at 17:31
Ptolemy wrote:
Oh my god, what the ****, don't know the rest | which brings us to http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/language-and-abbreviations_topic6747.html.
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Posted By: Ptolemy
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2016 at 20:25
Posted By: KillerPoodle
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2016 at 23:36
It is the customary response upon being ambushed in an multiplayer game.
The expression of surprise, the realization of impending doom and then you are BBQ'd by your opponent.
------------- "This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM
"a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill
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Posted By: KillerPoodle
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2016 at 23:41
Angrim wrote:
Ptolemy wrote:
Oh my god, what the ****, don't know the rest | which brings us to http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/language-and-abbreviations_topic6747.html.
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Indeed, almost like it was, somehow, planned ;)
------------- "This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM
"a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill
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Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2016 at 22:18
Isn't it nice when threads start speaking to each other. Especially if it shows that they are being read, and even sometimes by the very people who seem to want them not to have been written in the first place. Strange world we live in.
AJ
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