There is no point in discussing war. It is generally futile to try and use propaganda in the forums to sway others to your banner. Everyone knows why people are fighting in this war, so there's little point to running to the forums and making something up to try and generate interest in the war. 

We have a new GM?

Rikoo

SIN disagrees with Stomps' position that alliance land claims are not representative of Illyriad, as currently 10 different BL alliances are participating in the alliance land claim initiative, representing over 327 active player accounts. We feel that the initiative is representative of BL gameplay, but we also respect Pico and other people's opinions who disagree with the idea.

However, when Stomp vowed to "strike down alliances whom (sic) have the audacity to claim parts of a region as their own," we view this as a de facto war declaration on all claiming alliances. Aggravated by Stomps enlisting more help prior to our declaration that placed Stomps cities within 20 squares of our own, we chose to engage based on the implicit threat made in Pico's alliance statement.

SIN, along with the other claiming alliances, do not feel that all 10 alliances that Stomps vowed to strike down are obliged to "take a turn" and wait to defend themselves according to Pico's schedule. Pico chose the odds. He chose to engage all of us at the same time first, and we chose to respond at the same time.

Imo, repeated behavior which caused players to quit the game repeatedly out of boredom, or suicide out just to get action, does not speak true to the game's interest.

https://illyriadpost.wordpress.com/2015/06/18/ifwstart/" rel="nofollow - https://illyriadpost.wordpress.com/2015/06/18/ifwstart/

Please sent your news to illyriadpost@gmail.com

All information and commentary presented is based in facts.

illyriadpost wrote: All information and commentary presented is based in facts. No respect to land-grabbers.

I can't agree with this. Maybe it would be more correct:

"All information and commentary presented is based in facts, and my opinion which I have right to express."

Everyone deserve respect as long as they respect the others.

http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Player/Profile/273082" rel="nofollow - Aggaloch , a brave freedom fighter from the http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Alliance/1382" rel="nofollow - - Stomps alliance is fighting imperialist and theocratic http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Alliance/1204" rel="nofollow - - Hashashin forces at their doorstep – two of his towns are located in the Gremont just north of the Fellandire border, and the northern part of Fellandire has been claimed by the Hashashin as their property. Majority of Hashashin towns are located in this usurped territory, therefore it is no surprise that Aggaloch’s towns of http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/826/-2188" rel="nofollow - Iron Maiden and http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/821/-2237" rel="nofollow - King Crimson (editorial board does not know what these names mean, but they sound like a good names for some cool music group) were promptly sieged by the land-grabbers.

At the early hours of June 17, Hashashin member http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Player/Profile/267001" rel="nofollow - DasDwarf laid brutal sieges on both towns. After a day, Iron Maiden was no more (has been razed) and King Crimson is still resisting the siege at the moment of writing.

However, while being outnumbered near Fellandire, Aggaloch did not give up. On early June 18, he laid a siege on Hashashin member http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Player/Profile/261794" rel="nofollow - Hulk ‘s (who is not liked when he is angry) town http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/705/-1726/10" rel="nofollow - Fail Attempt No 2 in Pawanallpa further away from the Hashashin territory. At the moment of writing siege is ongoing.

Please send your news to illyriadpost@gmail.com

https://illyriadpost.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/freedom-war-dispatch-1/" rel="nofollow - https://illyriadpost.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/freedom-war-dispatch-1/

Maybe that is because I am a vet, and have seen war spinning a lot.

My view is that 'illyriadpost' is an account created for trolling. and I am sure it can be tracked back to somebody in STOMP.

Show your true face, coward.

Don't call people cowards if you can't appreciate their sense of humour.

Small fast dispatch.

Usually we are not honouring poisonous questions and comments, however, just to state it once, none of illyriadpost writers are participating in the war, nor would be able to do it. Practice of land-grabbing is most unjust to those yielding low power and therefore having no real means to respond in diplomatic or military fashion, while those having the power (except few fighting idealists) are still only looking for themselves and trying to avoid standing up for everyone.

Just to be clear, none of us are members of currently fighting alliances too.

There is nothing I can say in response to this that would not get me banned from the game. 

that sounds silly and counterproductive to me.  and if you do agree with that then why are the so called "freedom fighters" not attacking a single city that is inside of any land claim?  i mean fair is fair if the land claiming alliances cant fight outside of a land claim then the anti-land claiming alliances shouldn't be able to either.

remember this war was initiated by STOMPS declaring war on T-SC and attacking a T-SC city that was nowhere near the T-SC land claim and scheduled to move.  STOMPS reason for declaring war was because T-SC did not reply to an IGM that he sent us.  To paraphrase his IGM since i cannot post it here directly it basically said "hey, i am going to declare war and attack you because i don't like the fact you made a land claim" personally i see no reason to reply to that message instead we responded by informing all other land claiming alliances about the IGM, started building troops, and found spots in other alliances for our junior members to go to during the war.

P.S. if anyone would like a copy of his original IGMs, then just IGM me and i will forward them to you.

It is very possible to dodge sieges, and I expect, if this war crosses heavy into Elgea, you will see both sides exo-dodging with ease.

No one in the coalition wants nothing more than the freedom to develop, that freedom, that was simply not possible in Elgea. That, is being prevented by Stomps.

Its absurd to even suggest that alliances with land claims should not siege those that are attacking them if their cities are not within the land claim itself. What are they supposed to do, play defense until they lose?

Forcing people to play farmville is as damaging to the game as outright chaos for the sake of chaos. Find the balance, instead of you and others trying to go 'oh its hurting the game, but our behavior have not hurt the game at all for the last couple years'.

Edit: may all the grammar nazis weep!

You bring up some distressing points about this war in the BL. However, as a member of Illyriad that loves addressing the proverbial "elephant in the room". I have to inquire. Are you saying that you and the V-Crows are willing to break sieges that are beyond land claims to "assist" Stomp members? Or are you merely making a personal declaration of outrage. Because it seems like you are leaning towards the former.

As for sieging towns outisde their claim; it's completely logical people attack players that attack them, no matter if they are in claimed land. I really don't understand why someone would expect they can attack an alliance and then complain they get incoming attacks back.

And why twilights says razing is ruining the game is also above my understanding. If you don't want to lose cities then just stay out of wars. That isn't very hard to accomplish in this game, and even when you're in a war very few players lose more then a few towns. If you get driven from the game by that you might reconsider playing a game with war aspects in it. If you can't stand losing then don't play games that involve competition.

This is my personal view on the subject and does not represent VCrows.   

Is that an admittance to forum account sharing? If it is, you are in trouble.

FTR, I have posed the question of having more forum accounts than player accounts versus ToS to Rikoo. He is looking into this.

EDIT: it is obvious that 'illyriadpost' is a Stomp member, who is trying to spin his/her view about what is a silly war to begin with. To him/her I say to just declare if you want to fight, and do not invent silly excuses.

Get back on topic, please. 

We will make a post about this if you want, but bear in mind that there are many reasons we keep them separate. 

If you do not hear back from me, nothing has changed. If you see a post that you think is breaking the rules, report it.

Thanks!

GM Rikoo

But yeah, alliances tend to avoid the forums when they can for stuff that could in any way reflect negatively on them, because that's just good policy.  Speak softly and carry a big stick and all that.   

For the sake of educated discussion I must contest this "slanted" view and anecdotal example with one from the other perspective. That way you do not dominate three theaters of discussion Ajqtrz . Those with land claims are hardly men and women "waving a gun around". Nor are they individuals that are using intimidation or provocation. To stake out land and claim ownership is not an aggressive action in itself. Is purchasing or buying land a "threat" to the neighbors around you? Does it warrant an attack or fighting? You would be hard pressed to make an argument with such logic. These alliances in the Broken Lands are bartering with the community at-large to establish peaceable agreements in lands that are largely uninhabited. Many of these alliances even grandfather cities and players in these lands as an act of good faith. They are hardly "bullies" or "ruffians" with threats. 

Additionally, it is not an argument that STOMP escalated hostilities. Not only did they escalate, they started military engagements that were not even in the Bitter Lands. That is fact. If this was such an affront to the termed "freedom fighters" why was there a period of two months between the first land claim and fighting where no action was taken? If this was encroachment on people's rights there should have been diplomacy, discussion, or deeds taken immediately to preserve those liberties. Let us be honest with ourselves and say what this is. Chaos for the sake of chaos. Large players wanted to use their troops and raise their ratings because global events have been stale in the absence of a tournament.  As someone who has watched this community for five years this follows the usual pattern of summer seasonal hostilities. People have extra time and create a false casus belli to "spice up" the server. Do not scapegoat this new trend of land claims as being immoral to the community at large. The several alliances in the south are fighting and claiming territory to ensure the future for their posterity, especially the new small population players.

To rephrase your words: "You would think such a point would be so obvious that there would be no need for me to analyze the situation"

OTOH, think of the native americans when the first europeans "bought" claims of lands from them.  The idea of land ownership was foreign.  Was this an aggressive act?  Certainly not as aggressive as guns and swords, but it is not a passive or defensive act to claim ownership of something which previously had been communal property.

What I want to say is that claiming land isn't a purely defensive/passive move.

Almost everyone in the game does this. No one is going to let you settle 3 squares from them without asking even though the game allows it. All the land claiming alliances except for two say if you ask you can settle. It is exactly the same as the 10 square convention just larger.

I think it's the "just larger" part that is at issue.  Whatever the faults of the 10 square convention, at least it requires a physical presence.  One can look at the map and tell if a site is clear to settle or is going to require negotiation.  There is a presumption  by those making land claims that players are even going to be aware of their claims.

Most of the alliances making claims realize some players are going to make mistakes and settle inside the claim from time to time. Just like how players make mistakes and settle 2 squares from another person.

 

Of course phoenixfire is correct that most of the alliances making claims are nice people.  Even I think that.  Even I think that most of the alliances making claims are making them with honorable intentions.  And that they are NOT bad people or players.  But, of course, the word "most" is important because some may not be so nice.

 

And once you establish the right to the land do you not also establish the right to remove anybody you wish under whatever your terms might be?  How about, "you will pay tribute!" or "you will support our war with troops!" or whatever.  And can you promise that ALL the alliances making such claims in the future will be nice players like the current crop?  Once you establish a right to dominate you have little ability to keep the domination from becoming tyrannical.

 

More to the point though is this: Do you want this to be a strictly "war game?" or a "sandbox?"  With land claims you are giving the nod to a war game where players can be compelled to make war even if they do not wish to play that way.  Do you see how land claims move in the direction of a strictly war game?  And if so, is that what you wish?  In the past the players of Illy have stood for an open ended sandbox experience where players were protected from being intimidated, threatened and coerced except where they engaged in behaviors which were aggressive.  The new rule would make it an act of aggression to do what we have freely done in the past (for the most part), settle where we wish.

 

And can you even promise that a significant portion of Illy will remain free for all to settle as they wish?  Can you?  I thought not.

 

You see, the objection to land claims is not about here and now only, but about the future.  If you wish to continue the friendly competition as vs "aggressive gameplay" you stand against land claims.  If you wish to allow all players, even those who you think should go play "Farmville" to play where and however they wish within the game mechanics, you stand against land claims.  If you wish for players to be treated fairly and allowed to settle where they wish without intimidation, threats and coercion, you stand against land claims.  AND if you want the game to grow with a wider range of players than 'warriors' and, in fact to encourage even those "warriors" to play, you stand against land claims.  Both from an ethical and from a practical viewpoint, land claims are bad for Illy.

 

But to your real point: "It's just a game!"  We aren't speaking of the game are we?  We are speaking of the people playing the game.  It's them we are trying to treat with respect by HOW we play the game.  I sincerely hope that now that we understand the core of my disagreement we can address how players ought to treat each other as the basis of how we play the game.

 

And I appreciate the hyperbole.  It is funny, as hyperbole should be.

 

AJ

Is this how Illyriad works?

I'm new player and didn't know that.

as for your point on ensuring all alliances that make claims in the future dont trample on an individual player's rights:  no i cant ensure that and no one can but if someone is inside of a land claim where the claiming alliance is doing that to them all they have to do is forward the demands to other major alliances in the area and ask for help(exactly what has been done in the past).  as for elgea that is going to take some time and research to figure out what alliances to send to, as for BL under the current system all the minor player has to do is refer to Jejune's map and see who else has land claims nearby and forward the demands to them with a request for help.  this actually works because most land claiming alliances are military based so they do tend to have a larger then average standing military force per city.  remember any alliance making a land claim still has to enforce their claims/demands with troops.

as to your point on being able to settle where you want:  everyone still has the right to settle where they want, all the land claiming alliances have done is tell the newer players where their planned growth areas are.  this actually helps new players because if they want to go to a spot they can easily look at Jejune's map and see who the big alliances in the area are rather then spending forever going through all the alliances on the strategic map to see who their potential neighbors may be.  every guide i have read about city placement has stressed to different degrees the importance of having good neighbors so by having a single place with all alliances on it we are making it easier for the newer players to research their potential new neighbors.  even if the new player doesnt plan on settling inside a current land claim i suggest they contact the closest land claiming alliance to find out who is actually settling near where they plan to, the officers of the land claiming alliances will usually know this without much trouble since they are keeping an eye on their neighbors anyway for other reasons.

as to your point on land claims forcing players into war even if they dont want to:  during the last server wide war(h? and friends vs the GA) i am pretty sure H? and several other alliances did not want to be in the war but had the options of either trying to defend themselves or losing cities.  and the only way to prevent players from being compelled into war is by requiring the diplomatic stance "war" to be approved by both alliances like confed and NAP and not just one as well as preventing all pvp combat between players in alliances that are not at "war."

as to your point about this being about the future and not the present:  we never know what new players are actually going to do so are you wanting us to just siege them out of the game before they can become a menace to the game itself?

and finally my own question:  what is the material difference between what the BL claiming alliances are doing and what STOMPs is doing?  i am seeing STOMPs refer to themselves as "freedom fighters" but what they are actually doing is declaring war on other alliances because of what those alliances have posted on their profiles and in the forums.  the only peace agreement that i can see STOMP accepting at the moment if they decide they won the war is to tell other players what they can have posted on their alliance profiles or post in the forum.  that sounds like censorship to me which infringes on my right of "free speech."  so to steal a term from twilights, STOMP attempted to smorgasboard T-SC and T-SC called for help from its allies and other alliances with similar interests to itself.  that is the entire purpose behind this war as i see it.

And did you realize that most of us, humans beings, are really bad trying to guess how future would be?

But you evaded my question.

In your words, most f the claiming alliances are nice people.

So it's O.K. declaring war to present nice people, and support it, for the danger that in some hipotethical future some not nice people could do somethin nasty with it?

Then, why not declaring wars on land claims when they come a real problem?

as to you being privy to how the war started, you are not privy simply because you choose not to be:

quote from STOMP profile:  The first alliance that STOMP has chosen to confront is The Southern Cross. Prior to engaging in military action, STOMP, warned their leadership of our course of action, sending 2 igms and waiting for a reply which to this date has not arrived. Hence, the war declaration and we march forth.

mjc2 wrote: STOMPS reason for declaring war was because T-SC did not reply to an IGM that he sent us.  To paraphrase his IGM since i cannot post it here directly it basically said "hey, i am going to declare war and attack you because i don't like the fact you made a land claim" personally i see no reason to reply to that message instead we responded by informing all other land claiming alliances about the IGM, started building troops, and found spots in other alliances for our junior members to go to during the war. P.S. if anyone would like a copy of his original IGMs, then just IGM me and i will forward them to you.

Stay on topic. I don't care if this is in "off-topic" but to make me read through pages of text that is now veering into philosophy or whatever else... it just get tedious. 

I am not saying you cannot have discussions.. but EVERY discussion can be broke down into discussions about discussions.. and then there'd be no point. Make a new thread if you want to talk about other topics OTHER than the topic of war.

Be careful and make sure there are no double-topics. I am just going to start deleting threads that veer away or double post.

GM Rikoo

It's almost like a certain group is composed of players with a vested interest in removing the power of another certain group. weird, right?

You're implying those alliances have ill will towards you. Han Dynasty has actively been approaching players, and alliances, within the claim to ensure that our neighbors are as happy as can be. I believe you received an offer from Han Dynasty to help supply your alliances's smaller towns in Almenly? 

If we were truly so aggressive, we would have already absorbed the few tiny player alliances, and the unaffiliateds by now. If we were that aggressive we would not have extended an offer to help those around us.  We have not, because we simply just want room to develop without being shouldered into tight corners by Elgean powerblocs. 

Simply, your fear is misplaced. 

"You're implying those alliances have ill will towards you." you said.

From what I've experienced I do believe that almost all the members of all the various land claiming alliances are nice people and would not, now or ever, intimidate, threaten or coerce....oh, wait....sorry.  To tell others that they cannot settle here with permission under threat of removal is, well not a nice thing to do.  To take the right of settlement built into the game and restrict it to some areas based not upon your authority as a developer, but the size of your armies, is not a nice thing to do.  To seize land that you have not settled because someday you will settle it, and threaten anybody who would take that land before you actually settle it, is not a nice thing to do.  We don't have to wait for new players who are not nice, the nice folks in the current crop of claiming alliances are already doing not so nice things.  In fact, when you take land that you have not settled according to the rules of the game, you are robbing others of that space.  And robbery is not a nice thing to do.

Yes, you are all nice people.  Yes you want to think you aren't doing anything but nice things.  But you are doing things to the whole of Illy that a large part of Illy does not want done.  That is not nice.  You are intimidating, threatening and will, if you feel like it, coerce when necesary.  Those are not nice things to do.

The first step to doing right is to understand what you are doing wrong.  You can dip a pickle in a canister of sugar and coat it nicely, but when you taste it, it's still sour.

Finally, you conclude:"Simply, your fear is misplaced."  Of what do you think I'm afraid?  You think I'm afraid that some alliance will do the negative things you have described or not do the good things?   Bad things often come in incremental steps.  Today you  nicely claim land and nicely let everybody know how nice you are since you could be all mean and nasty, but what about tomorrow?  Having given up the right to say "no land claims" can you guarantee that the next alliance claiming land is going to be all nice and sugar coated like you and the current crop?  You have to think of precedent.  Once a precedent is established in a community it is much, much harder to change it than stopping it before it gets going.   That's why we can't wait and unless you can guarantee the future, you too should be scared.

AJ