Trueshot defense strategy
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Forum Name: General Questions
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URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=6100
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Topic: Trueshot defense strategy
Posted By: Whistlemist
Subject: Trueshot defense strategy
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2015 at 00:30
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I'm thinking of the best location defensive-wise for my capital city. 7 food squares are not an option because I'm using Tenaril. This means mountains are a good option. I'm wondering, from a purely defensive point of view, which is the best location for an Elven capital with an army mostly of Elven Trueshots:
1) Large Mountain entirely surrounded by Large Mountains. Seems good at first, but it seems that the most important battles, if seiged, are early on when the city army goes out to attack the seiging army. In this scenario, would my army of archers get a big penalty for attacking up a steep mountain?
2) Mountain surrounded by hills. Defensive bonus if attacked, but perhaps not such a large penalty for attacking uphill if I sally forth?
3) Hill surrounded by plains. Defensive bonus if attacked. Ditch all Trueshot strategy and have a cavalry to sally forth.
4) Hill/Mountain surrounded by mixed terrain of hills/mountains/plains. There are many more available locations of this description and perhaps this outweighs any advantages from the above strategies where I control the terrain of the battle. Have a greater component of cavalry & infantry in the army to be able to fight on all the surrounding terrain.
What do you think?
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Replies:
Posted By: Artahm
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2015 at 00:55
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A 7 food large mountine sourrounded entirely by plains is what you wanna go for and this is how you do it:
http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/the-magical-7-food-mountain_topic4094.html
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2015 at 01:34
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Trueshots get a bonus when attacking on a mountain.
The main disadvantage in having a city surrounded by mountains, even if you are an elf, is that usually when you are being sieged you need other players to come to your aid. Because cavalry travels so much more quickly than any other unit, cavalry units are most often what is used to relieve sieges. Therefore people prefer to be surrounded by plains, where cavalry has an advantage, because it is much harder to defend a siege camp that is set up on a plain and therefore easier to defend against a siege there.
I'd be very interested to hear what Kumomoto has to say on this topic. To me he is the elf who has the most experience in defending and attacking in the mountains. I still remember some of his actions in the Valar and Consone wars.
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Posted By: Whistlemist
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2015 at 03:09
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If plains are the only way to go, then cavalry is the only useful soldier and we should all be humans. I'm thinking that what really disadvantages elves here is the absence of high food-value squares in the mountains. Seems like a structural imbalance in the game which 5% magic bonus doesn't compensate.
Another thought - a bunch of elves banding together in the mountains would lessen the advantage of cavalry speed and make Trueshot seige relief more feasible.
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Posted By: Whistlemist
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2015 at 03:24
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Another thought - if cavalry are what's normally used to defend sieges, then aren't sieging armies also usually cavalry heavy? If you build cities in the mountains and take away the effectiveness of cavalry altogether, might that not reduce the size of many armies that might siege you? If you also take care to establish your cities in a region where your alliance is strong and foot soldiers can travel shorter distances, are we getting close to a valid alternative military strategy?
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2015 at 03:35
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Defending armies are not usually cavalry heavy, even on plains. Usually on plains you use spear troops, since those have extra defense vs. cavalry (for most units, kobolds being the exception). The reason people don't defend a siege with cavalry is that cavalry are too expensive to build and maintain relative to the other troops.
The people who are planning the siege can coordinate among themselves when the siege will land and have troops travel long distances to arrive in a (relatively) surprise attack -- at least the square on which the siege will land is not known until it actually does so. This means that people who are defending against a siege have less time to prepare than the attackers do, so they will be more likely to need to use cavalry for a quick response.
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2015 at 03:37
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Being an elf surrounded by other elves in the mountains is a valid strategy, by the way, one that Kumomoto used good effect in the Valar war, if I'm remembering it correctly. That's part of why I would love to see his comments in the thread.
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2015 at 03:41
Whistlemist wrote:
If plains are the only way to go, then cavalry is the only useful soldier and we should all be humans. | A silly statement, but one which I have heard often. Every tool has its place. Cavalry is an ideal tool for breaking sieges because response time is critical and it is very fast, so it makes sense to surround cities by plains. Marshals are superior in this role to knights, incidentally. Infantry excels at general purpose attack. Bows and spears are good defensive units (vs infantry/bows and vs infantry/cavalry, respectively) that work well together to defend tournament squares and sieges.
By the way, trueshots are inferior to sentinels in almost every respect. Their only real advantage is a slight edge in attack power, which comes at a far higher build cost and a lower speed.
There are many mountainous areas with high food dolmens. If you wish to pursue your mountain strategy, look into Tor Carrock and those areas.
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2015 at 03:45
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@Rill: It is also worth mentioning that most cavalry defends half as well as it attacks. Not an enticing defense option when spears are less expensive and build much faster.
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Posted By: Anjire
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2015 at 15:03
Brandmeister wrote:
By the way, trueshots are inferior to sentinels in almost every respect. Their only real advantage is a slight edge in attack power, which comes at a far higher build cost and a lower speed. . |
Sentinels are exactly equal to Trueshots in attack power/time and are greater in all categories with regard to defense power/time.
------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/26125" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2015 at 16:17
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My bad. Trueshots have a slight attack edge per upkeep, not per build time. But the materials cost difference is so large (even adjusted for build time) that I can't imagine fielding Trueshots instead of Sentinels.
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2015 at 20:16
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The big trueshot armies happened before they adjusted the build time for sentinels. So it was wiser then than it would be now.
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2015 at 20:30
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The same thing happened to Axemen. If you have the extra time to build, Axemen are a superior choice to Stalwarts (although Stalwarts still dominate Attack/Hour).
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Posted By: Artefore
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2015 at 21:40
Stalwarts actually have a slight edge in terms of attack per gold cost (13.5 attack/gold for axmen and 14 for stals).
------------- "don't quote me on that" -Artefore
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2015 at 21:58
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Is that really worth the -2 speed, lower defensive stats, and higher adjusted build cost?
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Posted By: Anjire
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2015 at 00:00
Brandmeister wrote:
The same thing happened to Axemen. If you have the extra time to build, Axemen are a superior choice to Stalwarts (although Stalwarts still dominate Attack/Hour). |
Stalwarts had their recruitment time reduced as well such that a stalwart gives you the most attack power/time of any unit. They will provide 25% more attack power/time over an axman.
Usually the price of plate is significantly cheaper than chain so I've usually found that the actual adjusted cost of a Stalwart comes out to be cheaper than an equivalent number of axmen.
------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/26125" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Nokigon
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2015 at 00:34
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The problem with the argument, as given in the OP, is that it instinctively assumes that the player in question is defending his/her city with only the troops that exist within the city. This is an argument that I have heard before, but in the long run a misguided answer.
A player can defend his cities with both the aid of his alliance members, and the aid of his other cities. Building a trueshot city on a mountain surrounded by plains, then, is still extremely tactically sound as it gives the actual city a major defensive bonus against attacks (115% wall defence+30% large mountain=major ouchies for attackers), and it allows any nearby cavalry to inflict several kinds of hurt on siegers.
There is a place for every single troop type in this game. You should not choose what troop to train based purely on the defensive potential of your location- otherwise nobody would ever train spearmen :P
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2015 at 01:21
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The theory is also flawed because bow units generally defend better than they attack. Therefore, a bow city surrounded by large mountains would still always spend more units attacking than would be destroyed in the siege camp (per build time).
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Posted By: Anjire
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2015 at 08:03
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The theory would work better when surrounded by Large Hills rather than large/small mountains since they give a much larger bonus to attacking with bows then defending with bows.
Though even with the +5% sov bonus the defending bows would have a greater power.
------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/26125" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2015 at 17:02
As many have posted, each tool has its purpose. In general, obviously cavalry, being the highest attack values, are the best for defense (hitting enemy siege encampments). Clearly being surrounded by mountains, then, make cavalry far weaker and it is therefore challenging to have them next to your city. But, if you do have a mountain next to your city, I highly suggest Trueshots to attack. They are particularly fearsome when attacking a large spear force on a mountain. And since orc spears have gained such popularity, this has become more common.
In general, however, for defensive purposes, folks are right in that TS aren't as efficient to build as sentinels.
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2015 at 17:17
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If a non-plains strategy were attempted, it would seem much more feasible with dwarves in jungle forests. Nothing defends in a forest better than infantry attacks it. There is still the issue of waiting for clearing, as infantry is half the speed of cavalry.
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2015 at 17:43
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Especially if the dwarves in question had jungle warfare colleges and jungle gear! I would love to see what Dlords would do with a jungle cluster! A lot of dwarven jungle cities in fairly close proximity would be hard to beat.
The main challenge is that many jungle squares are low on stone, which makes it hard to support infantry quarters. You'd probably want to terraform them.
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Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2015 at 18:17
Nokigon wrote:
The problem with the argument, as given in the OP, is that it instinctively assumes that the player in question is defending his/her city with only the troops that exist within the city. This is an argument that I have heard before, but in the long run a misguided answer. | just thought i'd underscore this for any newbs reading. if you're planning siege defence, you can pretty well count on any troops in the target city being cleared by the offensive party. your help must come from elsewhere (hence the value of fast cavalry, as i understand the really efficient sieges will raze a city in not much more than the time it takes to set up the camp). you can't build a single city secure enough to stand up to a concerted assault by an opposing alliance.
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