The Demise of Training Alliances
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Politics & Diplomacy
Forum Description: If you run an alliance on Elgea, here's where you should make your intentions public.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=5881
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 04:15
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The Demise of Training Alliances
Posted By: Captain Kindly
Subject: The Demise of Training Alliances
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 13:20
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This is something that has been on my mind for a while. For Credit, I have been involved with leading a few training alliances for EE. In that capacity, I have had contacts with leaders of other training alliances. I even managed to get a training alliance compact for mutual defense during the Consone war. LL launched it, but the initiative was mine. Illy has changed since then. There are no longer training alliances aiming at sending recruits to the mother alliance, and I think even H? can no longer protect T? I do not think that Alliances calling themselves 'Training Alliances' should have a special protection place because they call themselves that. All alliances take in new people and train them. Nor do I think that other alliances should rush in to help 'because they call themselves a training alliance'. As I said, Illy has changed. And every alliance can do confeds and naps. The Shield of calling yourself a Training Alliance is gone. I am pretty sure many players know this already. This coming from a HUGger should say something. ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/60249" rel="nofollow"> 
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Replies:
Posted By: auel
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 14:29
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Well CK, I probably don't have either your depth of experience or as many contacts as you but I want to take issue with you on a matter of fact. Whatever the status of other training alliances, while it is happy to help graduates into any alliance where they find a good fit, TOR-U does expressly try to prepare players for TOR and most of its members came through that route. Therefore I have to say you are a bit off beam on that.
Because in your opinion H? may no longer be able to protect T? (open to debate) that does not mean other alliances feel the same and your opinion does not make it a fact. In the recent small skirmish players would from time to time produce proof that a training alliance was helping a combatant with supplies and wanted to attack them for doing so. I would not allow it then and I still wouldn't now. If the leaders of a training alliance is proved to be allowing or even encouraging direct attacks or provocations by its members that is a different matter but there had better be a very strong case made before anything is done. Sorry my old Hugger ( I say this with respect and affection) because you say something does NOT make it so, the shield for Training Alliances is in place as far as I am concerned but I await the reaction and opinions of this forum with interest. Asio - Consul of TOR |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 15:30
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I don't understand. In the past, many training alliances graduates were directed to a parent alliance. FF to EE, T to H, and so forth. They were fairly partisan, which caused some arguments. Now training alliances seem more willing to send their graduates anywhere, including to adversaries of their own parent alliances. And that new neutrality is apparently bad? So bad that it warrants lifting traditional training alliance protections? I would still consider it quite cowardly to attack anyone in a training alliance, and I think many people would feel the same way. By the way, I have been told on multiple occasions that HUGcr is not a training alliance. It is a crow alliance that happens to take in many smaller players. |
Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 18:45
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interesting post, a little befuddling. like Brandmeister, i am perplexed at the idea that a training alliance being willing to engage in "capture-and-release" somehow disqualifies it from protection. indeed, training alliances that take in and train newbs regardless of their eventual destination have always struck me as the *only* training alliances worthy of special status. but this has been true of T? (or was true, i am not too knowledgeable about T?'s mission since LadyLuvs left the administration) since its founding. H? provided military protection, certainly, but graduates were not prejudiced and at best H? (and then T-O, it must be said) had a first opportunity to recruit them. many T? graduates (including Rill, as it happens) found their way to the crows and other alliances not affiliated with H?, and this seems to me to be the very definition of why a regular alliance might extend special status to a training alliance--not only are the members newbs, but the alliance itself is neutral with regard to any ongoing conflicts, and as likely to place a newb with it as with any other group in the game. T? also, at least until recently, had a strict policy of turning out graduates at a particular size, so it did not become simply a refuge for those who wished to avoid the dangers of the game. the others are junior branches of larger alliances, and, while they are peaceful so far as it goes, are avowedly not neutral and their members have been known to pass into the senior branch upon graduation even in the midst of a war. it is not so clear to me that the neutrality of these groups should be respected, as they are not actually neutral. in the last war, it was said to me that it had become so common for the junior branches to provide war materiel to the senior alliance (without actually participating in military action) that neither side was attempting any longer to track it. hmmmm. and then there are what might be referred to as "special entities", "training alliances" created on the brink of conflict simply to shield weak players from harm and to exempt certain holdings of an alliance from becoming spoils of war. this seems quite transparent, and probably unworthy of any exemptions at all. perhaps we simply need a better definition of what training alliances are and do, a definition that would be independent of an individual alliance's self-declared status. |
Posted By: Jane DarkMagic
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 19:04
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I agree with some parts of what CK has to say but not other parts. I find that more training alliances are becoming neutral and sending their players to different alliances is a positive shift. I would like to see more of it, and not less. Also, I am more apt to protect training alliances that send their players to different alliances because they do not necessarily have a big brother alliance looking after them. I think the protection of training alliances has become a hot topic because of players hiding behind them. I think as a community we should protect all deserving new players(those who are actively trying to learn the game and not trolling or attacking people). That said, I don't thing that same protection should be extended to training alliances as a whole. I think staff members of training alliances should be able to be targeted just like any other player. It is up to them, like every other vet in illy, to secure their protection through their own troops, alliances, and confederations. For example, Epidemic has recently called SIEGE a training alliance. If he does something to piss me off, for example if he were to siege any of my alliance's inactives, I would feel a right to go after him. I would, however, leave any new players in SIEGE out of the war. In any case, that is my two cents on the new status and treatment of training alliances.
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Posted By: Pellinell
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 19:57
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It is pretty easy to tell who are actually training alliances and who aren't. And I will say now so there is no confusion latter. TO will always defend training alliances. And I'd like to go into something Angrim said a bit. TO did not in any way hand pick players from T? I went out of my way to remain 100% neutral with my alt in T? Feel free to ask any and all T? grads. With that said I was an active member of the alliance and formed friendships with many there. Some chose to come to TO because of that. But it was their choice and I never recruited with my alt while there.
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 20:11
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@Pellinell: I think it is only natural that people would look positively on the alliances who trained them. As long as players are free to choose any alliance when leaving, I see nothing wrong with that. It's a small perk to running a training alliance, and if others covet the advantage, they should train players as well. @Jane: Yes, that's the core of the problem. Non-students hiding assets in training alliances. They are easy to identify, but if everyone does it, perhaps that's why everyone ignores it? @Angrim: How would you propose to track war materiel from training alliances, neutral alliances, concealed farm accounts, or any other "inappropriate" source? Any player with a shred of sense would just swap resources in a trade hub, hiding all evidence of the collaborator. |
Posted By: Jejune
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 21:56
I'd like to do a little confessing here so as to bear witness to what Angrim is saying. When I was in Rhyagelle, we launched a training alliance (Rhylet). However, to suggest that it was not a de facto part of RHY would be completely disingenuous on my part. The closest thing I could compare it to is a minor league baseball team -- a "farm team" -- which is directly tied to a major league ball club. Yes, we took in recruits, but we also all had alts in it (mine was Eraisuithon), and when the war broke out, just as a major league baseball team "calls up players" when needed, we "called up" the best and biggest player accounts from the training alliance so that RHY was at a full 100 active players. So, who were we fooling? Rhylet wasn't a "neutral training alliance." It was "the training alliance for Rhyagelle." There's a distinct difference there, and one that I'm pretty sure we didn't make on the Rhylet training page at the time. ------------- https://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/394156" rel="nofollow">  |
Angrim wrote:Posted By: EvilKatia
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 23:02
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Odd to see that only people not in training alliance talk about the 'demise' of training alliance. /me scratch head. I would've expected the leader of said training alliance to announce that. After that they are the one knowing whats going on or not..... So anyone got facts to back this up or its just rumor making ? ------------- Kat 'They have to always turn a forum post into a badly written book that gives a headache and takes your iq points' - AO |
Posted By: Zatchman
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 00:02
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Being new to the game I have fully enjoyed being in a Training Alliance [MOON], they have been super helpful. They are preparing me to become self reliant and then I will move onto a Regular Alliance. There is a real benefit to a Training Alliance. Yes, there is protection, there should be for new players. Seems to me that maybe a bad experience in the game has caused you make this post. ~Z
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Posted By: Wartow
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 01:06
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Isn't Zatchy cute? He thinks we will let him leave! In all seriousness... Is there a difference between an alliance claiming to be non-aggressive against active players and a training alliance when it comes to the general protection that will be granted to them by the wider Illyriad community? At least from my short time here (less than 5 months) I would say it is your general goodwill that will determine if you are a fair target of retaliation or aggression in the community. The key is being active and a willingness to communicate and cooperate in a reasonable way. Toss in scarce resources and some mischief... and things can and will get interesting! ------------- 
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Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 02:02
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 02:08
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I think training alliances are and will continue to be a vibrant part of Illy. It is interesting to consider what defines a training alliance. Probably people have different ideas about what a training alliance means. I suggest the following as my idea of what characterizes a training alliance, based on observation and what I was told in Toothless? I'm not saying this is any sort of doctrine; rather I'm interested in hearing what other people think of these ideas -- which ones are not core parts of a training alliance, and are there some I've forgotten? 1) Training alliances exist primarily to help newer players learn about the game; they offer protection, resources and education to new players. 2) Members of training alliances are neutral and do not participate in political conflicts. They do not attack other players militarily, diplomatically or magically except under the auspices of mutually agreed upon exercises or competitions. 3) Training alliances are, by mutual consent, under the protection of the larger alliances of Illyriad, which guarantee their neutrality and are pledged to protect them should someone threaten them. While some training alliances are explicitly under the protection of a particular large alliance, such as Toothless?/Harmless?, other training alliances are independent, such as FDU, ITG, Moon, etc. In the past, and I expect in the future, independent training alliances are protected by the goodwill of all or most of the large alliances in Illyriad, which are pledged to and in the past have come to the defense of those alliances, so long as the alliances stick by the neutrality to which they are pledged and do not initiate conflict. Some people would add a fourth quality, that training alliances are intended to be temporary and that the majority of their members will eventually join other alliances. I tend to favor this position myself, but am hesitant to judge as to when the moving on should occur. Most training alliances that continue for any significant length of time do send out graduates on a regular basis, although some players continue as faculty. I think this is a good discussion; I appreciate the comments made so far and look forward to hearing more from others.
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Posted By: Marty
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 03:05
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So how does this 'graduation' thing work? I have a mental image of ceremonies with mortarboard hats, scrolls and gowns. Tearful parents, proud grandparents etc. Anyway... my two penn'orth.... Moving on from an alliance where a 'trainee' presumably spent the majority of their Illy career sounds like hard work to me - all the friendships and relationships that were built just disappear? Suddenly the 'graduate' is on their own, in the big wide world, with no home (and no guarantee they were taught correctly....). How did 'training alliances' come to be in the beginning, why did alliances not train their own members in the way they wanted them to play, with the knowledge they would be able to be part of their plans in the future? (I realise this may be where 'junior' alliances first developed, a pool of people ready to leap into action when the time came.) M
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 03:22
| In my experience, Marty, the friendships and relationships are preserved. I still feel a special kinship for people, in whatever alliance who were in my "class" in Toothless? (Meaning we were newbs in training there at the same time.) |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 04:15
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A medal seems to be a common method of conveying graduation. I have seen several in GC, such as from Q&S. Alliances do train new members. eCrow trains new arrivals all the time. It's probably more common than people going through training alliances, actually. |
Posted By: Marty
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 04:16
How does that affect gameplay if former classmates end up in opposing alliances? Not attacking? Not thieving? Spying? Trading with your friends rather than your alliance? M
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 04:31
I'd say it really varies depending on the people and the friendship, just like any other friendship. In my experience, contacts made in training alliances can be helpful in later diplomatic and trade ventures, but they are not a guarantee of favorable treatment.
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Posted By: EvilKatia
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 05:37
trainees do not spend the majority of their 'illy carreer' in a training alliance. Well unless they quit after a couple of months that is. It all depends on how often you log and if you prestige build or not but after couple of months I believe some players are ready. That can also depends on their future alliance requirements. As for on their own in the big wide world I know T? offers a 'placement' service (aka info on how alliance plays in wich state, who to contact etc) permitting the trainee to choose where he will go after the training. They also have experimented and new players alike in their staff. Other training alliances may act differently but I'd be real surprised if they kick their graduate out with no prospect of at least 1 alliance if not more. Lastly what I always like of training alliance is that they permit players to integrate the game....without having to take 'side' on wars or just about anything. They get to observe and watch and decide where they feel is best instead of taking a chance on first days/weeks like in many other games. ------------- Kat 'They have to always turn a forum post into a badly written book that gives a headache and takes your iq points' - AO |
Posted By: Epidemic
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 06:10
From this day forth let it be known that all Siegers must do something to piss off Jane before you can be considered a graduate! |
Posted By: Marty
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 06:14
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"trainees do not spend the majority of their 'illy carreer' in a training alliance. " My bad, I meant the majority of their illy career up until the time they 'graduate' M
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Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 06:58
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I think training alliances bound to parent alliances for that purpose is a good thing as it is a way for alliances to recruit suitable candidates and giving them an amount of protection. I think just calling yourself a training alliance is a joke and demanding or expecting the community to protect you is unfair. I also think that if you want to be in a training alliance it is all good but why try go to BL and try kill the PvP attitude there? Everyone knows it is a wild country and you cannot try claim "training alliance " in a hostile environment. If you get hit in BL you deserve it, as that is where the people sick of the Elgea way of playing have moved. If you want to stay safe and quiet then stay in Elgea. There are many new alliances starting up in BL and the only ones you hear complaining are the ones who moved there from Elgea alliances. I can see the day when Elgea alliances will gang up on smaller active alliances in BL and try force them to play the way we play here in Elgea. My point is stay out of BL if you want to be in a training alliance or are a peaceful player. Thats why I am staying in Elgea. ------------- Kaggen is my human half |
Posted By: auel
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 08:23
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I know that Rill has her detractors, but I think that her contribution is very good indeed and pretty well encapsulates my own understanding of how training alliances should be working. It is perhaps worth saying that there is space for independent, specialist training alliances such as NS for those set on a military style of play, Q and S for elves and probably others which I am not aware of. However there may well be a case to be made along the lines that there are too many training alliances competing for the diminishing flow of recruits, and by extension that there are a lot of "faculty" accounts enjoying a sheltered and privileged existence. From the general tone of the debate I take it there is a general agreement that training alliances do still have a valid place and that they should continue to enjoy a high degree of toleration and protection? If that is the case perhaps the question should become, can we consolidate some of the existing training alliances without losing anything distinctive? Asio - Consul of TOR |
Posted By: Thexion
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 10:24
| As I see it trainees and Faculty in training alliance should be also very conservative about claiming territories and resources. Also training alliances should respect other player claims. For being in training and under protection of community should not give you any advantages in competition. Cannot eat your cake and have it too. |
Posted By: Badger7
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 13:05
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As a faculty member i would like to say T? is very actively neutral, we make it a priority that our members stay out of all disputes, politics and skirmishes. (I will probably get a mauling from koda for even posting here) a graduate students final location and alliance are truly their choice and theirs alone. On a personal note, the reason i like illyriad is the opportunity to play peacefully, if that is what you want to do, it should be respected, a unique feature in my experience, other games are really harsh on new or peaceful players mercilessly farming or destroying them. It is a real breath of fresh air. If certain alliances and players want to be more aggressive, judging by GC and the forum there should be plenty of willing participants. ------------- I love everyone! I love to be around some people, I love to stay away from others, and some I'd just love to punch right in the face! |
Posted By: Llannedd
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 14:04
| Personally I don't see the need for "training" alliances at all. I've only been playing a few months, but this is hardly an intellectually challenging game. Yes it has a fair amount of breadth to absorb (different building types, unit types, resources, etc.) but there is very little actual depth or complexity to any of it. The only aspects of the game that probably require any real strategic thinking are the use of diplomatic and military units against other players, which "training" alliances aren't allowed to do anyway. So apart from being a refuge for peaceful players (which is fine too) I don't see any need for "training". The forum posts and guides written by the devs and by other players are more than enough to learn about the game mechanics. |
Posted By: Cactus
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 14:21
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I disagree with those who say that training alliances should
not be protected. I run a training alliance and though t is a little different
that some training alliances, it is still a training alliance. We train people to trade, craft, and how to
attack NPC’s. We teach people how to respect and be friendly to their
neighbors. We don’t take part in wars and we do not attack people without provocation.
If mistakes are made, diplomacy is the best solution, not beating up on people.
We don’t require people to leave when they reach a certain size but they need
to be involved in helping the younger players.
Those who want to leave will move on.
We don’t send them to any particular alliance. We take in people with as little pop as a 3 population
who just started and want to learn the game. We have a few more experienced
players who help the newbie’s get on their feet. But we do not teach them to attack innocent players.
What confederates we have are more of mutual agreements to be good neighbors and help people who are closer to us than they are to their home base. Some have vowed to protect us should we be attacked. We do not get involved it their disputes with other alliances but would be a neutral negotiator if we were called upon for that purpose. Why people think that all training alliances are just fronts for feeding some parent alliance is beyond me. We do not have a parent alliance but we do have friends. We are a standalone training alliance that teaches people to respect others and to be helpful where they can. We do not teach them to crush others who happen to step on their toes. If someone wants to have a more military role they can move to a more militant alliance. We teach people to have some integrity when playing the game and we do not allow anyone to belittle another person. I recently had to remove an officer and friend from the alliance for disrespectful behavior toward a few newer players. That hurt me personally but I will not put up with that sort of behavior. People are here to have fun. That fun does not always involve fighting and many just want to be peaceful and not be involved in conflict. Those of you who want to crush anyone and everyone no matter if they are peaceful or military minded should reexamine your philosophy of life. Not everyone is like you. Leave the peaceful ones alone and allow them to play the game without fear of intimidation and disrespect. Those alliances who want to fight can fight among themselves. Leave the training alliances alone. If anyone is a member of a training alliance and wants to be involved in a fight they should move out and not involve the training alliance in anyway. Training alliances should be respected as neutral entities and not picked on because they are convenient easy targets. |
Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 15:14
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 16:16
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@Angrim: I had thought the same thing. It's a generic description. But the distinguishing factor of training alliances is the focus on training new players, not any particular set of rules. I think it takes a special mindset to be outnumbered by newbies. @Gragnog: If you're not going to BL, then why advocate for a playstyle there? I don't mean to drag politics into this, but it's a little ironic that a member of Harmless is telling other people not to set policy in a distant region, given how much Harmless did exactly that in Elgea for two years. 90% of the accounts in Broken Lands are from alliances in Elgea, so it's only natural that Elgean approaches prevail in BL. @Llannedd: There are plenty of training alliances (and regular alliances) that teach people PvP. They are just forbidden from involuntary PvP. |
Posted By: Glin
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 17:45
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[QUOTE=Badger7]As a faculty member i would like to say T? is very actively neutral, we make it a priority that our members stay out of all disputes, politics and skirmishes. ] yeah--NOT |
Posted By: razbhaat
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 18:30
| As a former chancellor of T?, I can say without hesitation that we were absolutely neutral when it came to conflicts between other alliances, and did not steer our graduates toward any other specific alliance, even H?. Our mission was, and is, to help new players to "learn the ropes" of being active participants in the Illy community. Under no circumstances did we, or as far as I know, any other true training alliance, allow our members to take aggressive action against any other active player,, nor did we accept members who were, in fact, active members of any guild involved in a conflict. In fact, we actually booted any member who did so, and "encouraged" those who merely displayed a tendency toward aggression to leave T? early. By doing so, we did our best to not attract aggression against our members and to remain neutral in all cases. Our only defense, in fact, was the generally accepted knowledge that many, if not most, of the more powerful alliances, would "have our back" if we were attacked. This went far beyond H? alone, and included alliances that were in conflict with H? at the time. If training alliances are not considered to be safe havens for Illy's newest members, and protected as such, there is no way that they can continue to exist. If that happens, Illy will become just another RPG where money rules, and new players are nothing more than resource farms for established accounts. The true sense of community in Illy is the major difference between it and the myriad of other such games available. |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 18:50
| There is no value to using newbies as resource farms. Illyriad cities produce enough basic resources to make robbery mostly pointless. Advanced resources are also easily protected in hubs. That alone diminishes the chance of it becoming another Evony. |
Posted By: Merlinus
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2014 at 00:53
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I began this game on the same day that, after some really wise counsel, I applied to, and was accepted by Toothless?. In my first week as a member, I was nearly (and only due to the generosity of the then-Chancellor was I not) kicked out of that Alliance because I posted a non-neutral position in the Forums. One. Not two. I was on probation for a long time because of that unintentional error, but I learned that when my TRAINING Alliance said neutral, no matter what--they fully meant it. It was my dream then that, upon graduation, I would be chosen to remain within T? as a member of faculty because that is what I greatly wished to do. I had reached both the town and population limits for general membership in that Alliance, and was told by a new Chancellor that I was not being asked to remain; that I must graduate from T?. I had never even thought of being in another Alliance, training or other, and I had some serious work to do...quickly. As I had done on my first day, I now again went to players of this game I had come to respect and admire, specifically because of my Training Alliance, the friends I made (and keep) there, the amazing things I learned there, and the now ingrained notions of hard work, patience, kindness, benevolence toward others, and the requirement to live up to the code of Honor that T? requires from every member. As I began to search across Illy for THE Alliance I would seek to become a part of, I very quickly realized something I had not known before those days. The most powerful, most respected, and most successful Alliances in the game were filled with fellow Alumnae of Toothless?, and a very large percentage of those fellow members were in strong leadership positions within those Alliances. That doesn't just happen. Those Alliances, and those leaders were on opposing sides in the dirtiest, nastiest, and most costly war Illy has ever known. Cities were razed by some, while nearly razed by others. I had learned how to have honor, and trust, and respect for, and from my fellow T? alliance mates (for the most part), and how to deal with those who felt I did not deserve these jewels. Another lesson learned was that you cannot be everything to everyone, so you had best be everything to yourself. No community's members will always agree about things (or players). It comes with dealing with belly button people. But you'd best learn how to discern the differences, and create positive strategies for dealing with those who oppose you. I didn't learn that by clicking on an entry in any Forums. I was looking for an Alliance that was not T?, but who mirrored the values, aspirations, requirements and expectations that had been consistently expected of me as a member of T? That doesn't just happen, either. Counsel with many players, both in and never in T? told me that, if my intentions were clear, the Alliance I should be in would make itself known to me. Not one person...not Lady Luvs, Not Starry, Not Aziza, not KodaBear, not Rill...nobody tried to tell me which Alliance would best meet my particular desires and skills. Nobody. But every one of those people, and many more, looked around on my behalf as I did the work required...as a T? graduate. They showed faith and confidence in me, because they knew me. Most liked me at least, some did not, do not, and never will. That is their loss, not mine. Yet, I found willing eyes and ears everywhere I went. The entire kingdom knew I was leaving T? to my great surprise. Most in the kingdom knew what that meant. I was going to be a very valuable player to some one lucky alliance. I'm certainly not boasting. No one was more shocked than I when doors were opened to inquiry; they were not, however greased at all. It wasn't me, it was T? that made those inquiries possible. As a result, I found THE Alliance that would not only match, but exceed my own particular expectations of myself as a player in this game I love, as well as a member of the only other Alliance I will ever be a part of. I came to PLAN prepared to learn, to begin, to be accountable, accepted and affirmed...and to proceed within it. Ask ANY member of Toothless? what the term "Neutral" means, and they will have the same answer for you. T? as an alliance have been given the trust of Illy because they have earned it, one player/member at a time, day by day. One does not merely graduate from Toothless?; one proceeds beyond it. My first mistake very nearly cost me my membership, and my opportunity to learn from among the best, most highly respected, and most beloved players in this game. For many players the requirements of membership in T? are too much, beyond their ability to live up to, or too burdensome for the game they wish to play. As I learned, the door always swings in two directions there, and nobody ever goes, lives, or stays there without their own personal agreement with their alliance--every day. To have seen the dedication of leadership and membership at what I personally consider to be THE premiere training alliance in this game (purely bias on my part, to be sure) to the fundamental notions of what a Training Alliance should be, for the reasons that should propel it into the legend of Illy, I can speak of it. l bear witness of the meaning of caring for newbies, of valuing the newest member of the game, and the toughest alliance in the game when it comes to earning your way to the door toward Illy success. I can also bear witness to just how lucky the occasional player is who leaves that fold, to find THE place they belong in this game. That is because I, and they, have been trained to know their place, power and position; their skills and abilities, and which (for today) game they wish to pursue. Should they in the future wish to pursue some other game in Illy (Trader vs. Military, for example), that player will know how to proceed. T?, members, faculty, and living examples from across the game expect them to do so, and will help them whenever that assistance is requested. For myself, I DID proceed correctly. I have found my "THE" Alliance. I did the work required, sought and received permission to join only one Alliance because I knew it was THE Alliance for me. I know that because my training alliance taught me about ME. There are, to my mind, training alliances, affiliate alliances, and junior alliances. And there are those who now, as in the past, find them to be dangerous or unassailable places, who would rather change our game, our histories, our traditions to something more comfortable or convenient for them. (OP excepted, I believe!) Hogwash! This is Illyriad, it is not _________! I came here the day LoU became a ghost. I spent a couple of years, on my own, without assistance, at a signifiant personal financial cost, learning what LoU was. I came here from it; I did not, do not, and will not abide peaceably those who would make this game that game, or any other. Not Evony, not LoU. Not Any Other Game but this one. This game has, as does Toothless? and/or PLAN and YOUR Alliance and community, history, traditions and culture that serves a (despite some constant and non-stop railings to the otherwise) GROWING community who not only deserves, but is required to understand a thing before attempting to make a dog into a cat. This game, compared to many, many others available online, is relatively young, yet the community developed here is top shelf. The caring, protective nature of most, but not all players in this game is the basis of that culture, built, fed, developed and having protected thousands who identify with it. I played, for instance one game for more than 8 years as an Alliance Leader and worked daily to establish a culture which might be compared to the culture I walked into the day I joined Illyriad. I don't have history here...yet, save for a long-ish membership in T?, and a relatively new history beginning in PLAN. I have a total and complete loyalty, allegiance, and dedication to one alliance: PLAN. We are building one heck of an awesome alliance...a training alliance at that. Now, just think about it. Who is watching us do that, do you think? And, who do you think is being held to account, every single day, for what we do? A player cannot serve two masters. I serve PLAN. Period. I love T?, and am perhaps it's strongest supporter and cheerleader--for a reason. I hope deeply that every second of my gameplay in Illy henceforth is worthy of approval from T?, and the myriad of players across our game. But it is not the effectiveness of my service which finally matters. It is my worthiness in my service that there are just a whole ton of folks, players in this game, who teach me as they have taught me, who lead the strongest alliances in this game to expect me, and all who will be taught by me, or teach with me, or lead for me. I didn't get that in the Forums. I got it every day in AC, backed up without knowledge of doing so in GC by those very same players who hold me to the same standard every.single.day. I wish to be worthy of their honor, and their trust. I will know if I succeed in that goal, believe me. I didn't learn that by reading a guide, or adding to a game in a Forum. I was Trained to know it. I was trained. My training continues today as I proceed from one plateau to another in The House of Plantagenet. I can (and do) fall as well as rise. Here, I am protected for the same reason, to the same ends, and of the same cause as I was protected in Toothless?. I belong. I belong here. I didn't get that by the purchase of Prestige. I was trained to these levels, and to these expectations by the heroes of our shared game. That's what a Training Alliance does. If yours doesn't do that, require it of them. Expect it of them. Demand it from them. Because, like it or don't, that is why Training Alliances exist in our game. That is why they are so highly respected, their graduates so actively sought after, and their leaders so very clearly set apart. And that, like it or don't, IS what this game is all about. It's not easy. It's just worth it, and worthy of every player in our game, in our alliances, and in our shared community. THAT is the foundation of all cultures in this game. It cannot be ignored, dismissed, nor purchased. It lasts because it is right, honorable and just, even to the very last pixel. So may it ever be so. Fidelitas! ------------- In Peace we reign. In War we RULE! Long live the Royal House of Merlinus! |
Posted By: Consul Zynot
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2014 at 01:23
| I have nothing against training alliances but they are starting to get old in my opinion.... BUT we should keep them for the time being many great players have come from good training alliances like T? and NS |
Posted By: Merlinus
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2014 at 01:36
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I'd love to see clear evidence of your claim, Glin. Please? ------------- In Peace we reign. In War we RULE! Long live the Royal House of Merlinus! |
Posted By: Glin
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2014 at 01:43
No. I will not publicly talk about it. I do not subscribe to the belief that any single alliance is all good, above reproach, or even that anyone pne person here should demand my explanations. What next- you try to discredit me for not saying something you can dig into? These games are tiresome. Not all in this game are whom they try to portray themselves to be. Persons in T? are neither more nor less an example of that statement. |
Posted By: Pellinell
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2014 at 04:15
You won't talk about it because it isn't true. I was in T? for 3 years and leadership for over 2. Never did T? ever break their neutrality stance. So you are either misinformed or a liar.
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Posted By: Consul Zynot
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2014 at 04:26
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Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2014 at 04:30
In my opinion, for what it's worth, training alliances continue to be a good thing because it is not just the mechanics of the game that need to be understood. A new player, unfamiliar with Illyria's conventions of social conformity, especially players who are mostly familiar with other RTS games greatly benefit from a short stay in a training alliance. One may argue that participating in GC for a few days would make any new player aware of Illy's conventions but I think it falls far short of the actual need. For example, there is the etiquette of hunting and harvesting (kills, mines, herbs, etc.), the 10 square (or whatever) rule, how to determine an inactive account is ripe for thieving, or when it's safe for sieging and other behaviors with Illy-centric protocols that have become virtually rote for players with veteran level accounts. I suppose all of this could be learned from GC and/or the Illyriad Forum but both of these are less than fun to wade through for most players and picking and choosing truly beneficial advice can be difficult at best. Joining an established (not training) alliance would, in most cases effectively bypass any need for a training alliance, unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately it is not such an easy task to find that one perfect fit alliance so soon in ones Illy career. For players new to this world, it is just better to put off the long term decision and join a training alliance to get the basics. I think those training alliances that are attached to one particular alliance, that bring in new players, train them and then move them into the parent alliance already have an inherent protection. They are not in need of protection from the community at large and the rest of this reply does not pertain to them. While it is true that any alliance can form a NAP or a Confederation, unlike other alliances, training alliances generally have somewhat unconventional reasons to do so. For example, sometimes it may be helpful to have them in place during training, or conversely, it may be best to remove them for the very same reason. For an active training alliance, these diplomatic relations often serve very different purposes than for the average alliance and they cannot be relied on as a substitute for the protection of the community. If a training alliance is breaking unwritten rules by providing material support to alliances at war, or worse, harboring players rebuilding for the next attack, it can be extremely difficult to prove. I would argue that the presumed protection of the community is somewhat similar to the tenet of "presumed innocence." In the U.S., it's a given that the burden of proof is on the prosecution. It can be infuriating and certainly the guilty are set free all the time, but the alternative is horrendous. Innocent people locked away for other's crimes is why that burden must remain on the prosecution. In Illyriad, the protection of training alliances must remain the norm simply because of the alternative. Now, questions have been raised about whether or not the training staff should be protected as well. I feel that's a more nebulous issue given they are generally vets themselves and most likely have vet friends (or, in some cases alternate accounts) who are members of or even leaders of established alliances. Even if there are no "official" diplomatic relations in place, the staff are likely to have connections they can rely on to muster support in the event they come under attack. This is all rather moot, however as it is highly unlikely that a staff member would come under attack, in an isolated way, with the community ignoring it. The obvious exception is if they are behaving in a way that warrants the attack. Again, I believe the burden of proof must fall upon the "prosecutor". For example, if a pattern can be established and the staff member is shown as an habitual offender, and the training alliance is legitimate, the solution should be self evident. The protection of training alliances is of benefit to all, regardless of affiliations. The difference between an established alliance that takes in new players and trains them and an alliance that calls itself a training alliance (excepting those that are attached to a parent alliance) is the impermanence. The members of the training alliance are expected to move on to make room for new members and the cycle continues. Training alliances are forever full of newbs. It is just bad form to attack a training alliance, for any reason and we all know it. ------------- |
Posted By: Glin
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2014 at 15:25
Just because I disagree with this statement actively neutral, we make it a priority that our members stay out of all disputes, politics and skirmishes. ] does not make me a liar. Stop with the name calling. There is no need for that.
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Posted By: Pellinell
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2014 at 16:02
OK Glin so you're not a liar just a teller of untruths. Better ?
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Posted By: Consul Zynot
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2014 at 18:33
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Posted By: Aurordan
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2014 at 18:36
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Settle down, children. Let's stick to the topic. I've always felt training alliances didn't really need specific protection, just because the high risk nature of conflict made any alliance that went out of its way to be neutral fairly safe, and I think that's even more the case these days. |
Posted By: Kavenmetack
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2014 at 02:11
Merlinus you have a nice long post
may i ask why T? wouldnt let you stay in T? |
Posted By: Kavenmetack
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2014 at 02:26
you already have alot less credit because you hiding behind a unknown name. you cant say thin unless you can back it up but no one follows this.
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Posted By: Merlinus
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2014 at 03:49
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@Kavenmetack: The reason was because the alliance was full, and there were no permanent positions open. At least, that was what I was told. If there were any other reason, I am not aware of it/them.  ------------- In Peace we reign. In War we RULE! Long live the Royal House of Merlinus! |
Posted By: Kavenmetack
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2014 at 06:32
ok thank you for answering
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Posted By: Glin
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2014 at 01:19
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Anyways, back to the actual thread, now that the name callers have chilled: Training alliances can be advantageous to players. It can also be advantageous to other alliances. ex: new member gets lots of res and advise from leaders. that is great if the leaders have actually been n pther alliances and know hoe to train members in different aspects of the game. It would be wise to build Guilds with in training alliance consortiums for that purpose. Also, leaders of alliances will see the commitment of the player by how fast they grew, how seady they grew, what reputation they earned and how much knowledge the training alliance has a rep for instilling in members. Sort of like what kind of joint you go to buy a used car. Not all car salesmen are equal- if equal had a decisive term in the Illy vocab. As for neutral---who cares if they remain neutral or not? Especially if the alliance makes it clear they are neutral. What is important is that they 'mother' alliance can cover their A if a newb PO someone. Know what I mean? :P
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Posted By: Kavenmetack
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2014 at 02:23
Two questions. One why would it matter if training alliance send members to the mother alliance? Yes in the past the bigger alliances couldnt take the time to teach newbies and help them with res. So they made training alliance but even back than they did just go to the mother alliance. Second question. What do you mean H? cant protect T?? what threat could H? dont be able to handle vCrow? Shade? mCrow? any alliance that is bigger than H? right now? because all of these alliance would never attack T? or any training alliance.
The reason that training alliances have this special protection is that most training alliances dont have a strong Military and most of the members are newbies who cant really defend themselves. My question is that have you seen training alliance abusing this special protection? because i have not.
What does you coming from HUGger have to do with anything? Last I checked HUGger wasnt a training alliance or has a training alliance of thier own |
Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2014 at 21:09
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2014 at 04:43
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I was not privy to any conversations in which the neutrality of Toothless? was an issue in the last war. I was not in the leadership group, so it's possible I missed something. Certainly some members of NS were pretty blatantly partisan and the leader's alt was directly involved in the war, but so far as I know, no NS players took in-game action while in the alliance that were not neutral. I think there were similar concerns expressed by the other side about TOR-U members; again so far as I know there were not any in-game actions directly in support of the war. It has generally been Toothless? position (as prescribed to me when I was a member) that their neutrality includes not voicing an opinion that took either side of a conflict, that is, not even presenting the appearance of partisanship; other training alliances do not necessarily observe that constraint. While I can see the rationale for T?'s stance in terms of members expressing opinions, it can be very difficult to implement in practice, and I don't think it's strictly necessary to observe for a training alliance to be considered neutral. It seems like that sort of thing is best left to the alliance's leadership.
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