Actions against Myll of [Wave]
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Politics & Diplomacy
Forum Description: If you run an alliance on Elgea, here's where you should make your intentions public.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=5718
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 04:30
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Actions against Myll of [Wave]
Posted By: Bimoda
Subject: Actions against Myll of [Wave]
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 00:37
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As many may know, the Tsunami [WAVE] alliance has for some time been flaunting the common convention in Illyriad that the 10 square radius around a city is held to be area that is not to be settled without first getting the permission of the Lord of that realm. We have noticed these transgressions on more than one occasion and have until now let it slide. In this latest case, Gaia had used the Sov 5 process to place a city within the 10 of two other cities, 6 squares from one. As she is a new player, it was pointed out to her that it is not considered proper etiquette. She was politely asked to move it and offered resource aid if she needed it. As it turns out, she was instructed to do so by her alliance leader Myll. Speaking with Myll, we learned that they do not intend to honor any 10 square boundaries and will continue to slip their cities in where they have no right to be. After discussions with multiple members of their leadership, we feel that there is no diplomatic way to get them to change their course. Additionally, the offending player in this instance, Gaia, cannot truly be found at fault, as she is a newer player and was following the orders of her alliance leader and is continuing to do so. It would be unfair of us in this case to raze her city. Instead we have come to the decision to place the blame where it is truly due. We have decided instead, to begin Razing Myll’s cities, until all improperly placed cities are moved and we have assurances from the alliance that the practice will cease. Let it be known that we harbor no ill will towards the rest of the Tsunami alliance. None of their other members will be bothered by us unless they join in the battle or support Myll (either with military or diplomatic units). We in Fairy/Fairi are not aggressively militaristic, but we will stand up for our sovereignty and the common accords that we as a community have put in place. This notice is just that, a notice to let interested parties know that these attacks are not aggressive and that diplomatic avenues have been tried and have been rejected. Hopefully Myll will see the error of his ways and correct his alliance’s stance on this issue. Sincerely, Bimoda |
Replies:
Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 01:40
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Good luck. I don't think you'll get much support on this overall...the ten square rule is just about a lost cause. In my opinion, six squares is still quite doable. A city claiming 20 sov squares can get along quite well so long as no other city is closer than 4 or 5 squares. Closer than that cannot be logically argued by anyone, in my opinion. I think most level headed players will accept as close as 8 without much trouble. I would have a problem with an alliance settling within my own alliance's hub in a wholesale way, but a city here or there shouldn't be an issue...in my opinion. ------------- |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 01:46
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I haven't been a fan of WAVE's policy about ignoring sov claims on mines and herbs. However, the Fairy city in question here is right on top of Tringar Trading Post. When you place cities immediately adjacent to a faction hub, I think you weaken your claim to 10 squares. No individual or alliance can truly own a hub, as evidenced by Centrum. There are very few friendly factions in the Wastes, which strengthens the case for sharing the hub area. It's impolite not to request settlement permission, but given the specific circumstances, I'd say the reaction is somewhat excessive. |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 01:48
| @abstract: the problem with that suggestion as a blanket policy is that a single unallied city nearby will automatically block friendly exodus. |
Posted By: Bimoda
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 01:53
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Unfortunately, that is not the only city that they've done this with and they made clear that the policy would continue. It is not just the spot by the Hub. |
Posted By: Bimoda
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 02:03
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@abstract: With the 10 square rule for exodusing, it makes no sense to use a 6 square rule. As it is the community consensus is 10 squares. We have 10 squares posted in our alliance profile. They are aware that it is against the standard for players in the game and they choose to blatantly continue with their policy. Game wise, they are correct, there is nothing keeping them from doing it. Also correct is the fact that we have the right to take action against Myll for doing it. The worst part is he is indoctrinating new players into his style of play that will make it more of a problem in the future if it is not quelled now. |
Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 03:35
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Don't mistake my doubt about your claim for a dove approach. I believe if you believe, you should do what you believe is right. If you are willing to commit your account(s) to the cause, more power to you. I don't think the majority of players agree with your statements, or mine for that matter. Most will urge negotiation. I say pull the trigger if you are willing to accept the results. It is certainly true that a nearby unallied city will block friendly exodus. The obvious answer is to make a NAP. I think the only way to effectively fight an alliance encroaching on your territory is to lay claim to it with cities. If they are determined to continue sending in lots of cities, they will be at a distinct disadvantage with the maximum level 12 everything and 5 day military moratorium imposed on cities after exodus. ------------- |
Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 03:43
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By the way, semantics here BUT... The only rule in effect is the game mechanics rule. Everything else is policy. Alliances have policies and it is up to them to determine how far they are willing to go to enforce said policies. ------------- |
Posted By: Aquennomi
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 03:50
| Negotiation tried abstract. Was mentioned in initial post. |
Posted By: Gemley
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 03:51
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I am glad Fairy is standing up for themselves. Good luck in the fight, and may this matter be settled swiftly before too much blood is shed. ------------- �I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend� - J.R.R. Tolkien |
Posted By: Aurordan
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 04:18
| Yeah this is crap. That city is well away from either of your cities, in competition for no sovereignty you could possibly want. If you want to kick some newb alliances's teeth in for fun, at least think of a better excuse. This "Ten Square" crap has been excessive and unnecessary since day one, and a lot more people realize it than you seem to think. |
Posted By: Bimoda
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 04:51
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@Aurordan: You may not agree with the policy, but it is one that most of the Illy community abides by. We are not looking to pick on a smaller alliance. In fact, we decided against going after the smaller members who were directed to put their cities there. We are putting the responsibility on the alliance leader who pushed them to flaunt convention and not even ask for permission. ------------- Bimoda - Dragon Fairy: Illyria Fairy Nation [FAIRY] |
Posted By: Aurordan
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 05:01
| A dubious convention doesn't absolve you of responsibility for your actions. How was this town in any way harming you? This is really a thing you're burning down cities over? |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 05:26
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Dan, to me this looks more like friction between two alliances who inhabit the same region. WAVE seems to be a new, somewhat defiant group of rookies. Fairy is the established alliance. Biomoda, you shouldn't be surprised that threatening to squash some newbs (or even just their newb leader) over a minor dispute will draw criticism. I'd speculate that if the conflict is perceived to get out of hand, you could even see action from regional powers to stabilize the situation. WAVE is, after all, only 4% of Fairy's size. This community tends to scrutinize such conflicts, even when the little guys are clearly being abrasive. |
Posted By: TanyaFairy
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 06:21
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Hi Everyone I just want to make it clear that we are in no way Declaring War over this. Our action is solely against Myll, who instructed his new players to disregard even the respect of contacting the other alliance player and discussing placing a city there. Aurodan we did discuss this internally before we started this action. We also discussed the fact that we probably would have let the new player settle there if they had contacted us. After all, as has been pointed out this case, there is a hub close by. But the fact is they did not contact us, he refused to even discuss with us or even admit that the right thing to do would have been for him or the new player to contact us. Whether it is a game rule or not, it is our rule. It is a rule that, since he won't even discuss with us, we are going to enforce when we might not have. We do not have a problem with Wave, our issue is with Myll, who pushes his new players into rash acts. Any other alliance would do the same as us. We have tried and exhausted negotiations, now we are done talking. This notice is not to ask other alliances to give us permission to enforce our rules. Rules that our players abide by when we expand. At no time has another alliance come to us with a problem do we ignore them and disrespect their rules. Myll's actions have consequences. Consequences that we are going out of our way to make sure do not fall upon innocent new players in WAVE who don't have the experience to know better.
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 07:08
Maybe I'm a bit old fashioned, but razing an alliance leader's cities is typically considered an Act of War. Pushing the big red Declare War button on the alliance screen seems like a mere formality. |
TanyaFairy wrote:Posted By: bansisdead
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 08:03
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"We in Fairy/Fairi are not aggressively militaristic, but..." ah the thing people say just before they're about to be aggressive militaristically. ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/124253" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Nokigon
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 09:13
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I don't see what the big deal is about. When WAVE first announced their contempt of the ten square rule, it was made clear that they could do whatever they wanted but they had better have the forces to back themselves up. In my opinion, the qualities or otherwise of the 10 square rule notwithstanding, when an alliance chooses to deliberately defy a policy without prior arrangement it should be ready for the consequences of those actions. An alliance shouldn't be free to do whatever they want to do without consequences due to size. |
Posted By: Bimoda
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 14:11
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When we posted our intentions, we knew that it would draw criticism from some. Whenever a conflict or disagreement comes up we've always been ones to try and talk things out first. With the majority of the fine players in Illy, this is the only thing that needs to be done. In this situation, the only response was, The Game Let's Us Do It, You Can't Tell Us What To Do (Paraphrased). It's a symptom of an issue that they profess that they will continue to do and as they grow, it will become a bigger issue. We did not need to post this, but I felt that it was important to let the rank and file of [Wave] see that we are on record as not wanting to go after them. I even took the step of sending IGMs to every other member of their alliances to make sure they were aware of the actions we are taking. I do not know many (if any) other alliances that would have taken those steps. Abstractdream brought up a point that we definitely discussed beforehand. Why not an NAP. Here is why. If they are being as hard-lined as they are about their "right" to flaunt convention, why would we want to put ourselves in a position to rely upon them and an NAP to continue with our own plans for colonizing an area? Myll chose the path that they are on when he decided to play in the style that he is. He did it knowing that it was against convention and that there could be consequences. Hopefully the rest of the leadership of [Wave] will learn from Myll's mistake and we can all continue playing respectfully. ------------- Bimoda - Dragon Fairy: Illyria Fairy Nation [FAIRY] |
Posted By: Neytiri
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 15:40
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Try and have fun, too. ------------- "It is well that their bodies know the heat and the cold; it will make them strong warriors and mothers." - Absaroke elder (from Edward S. Curtis's book 'The North American Indian') |
Posted By: Bimoda
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 16:13
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Also, a little background for those that haven't read it. From the [Wave] alliance profile: Tsunami is not a training alliance, nor a peaceful alliance -- we will wage war when and where necessary or beneficial to our claims. Myll's previous forum Post: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/the-10square-myth_topic5529.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/the-10square-myth_topic5529.html "This game has lacked battles far too often and far too long," - Myll Myll knew he was asking for trouble when he started this policy. You can see from his forum post that he was inviting this to happen and that many tried to change his course. ------------- Bimoda - Dragon Fairy: Illyria Fairy Nation [FAIRY] |
Posted By: Zarhunt
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 17:31
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I am still a fairly new player myself and am curious as to when this started, I remembered looking around Elgea just before BL opened and thinking I would never be able to find anywhere to settle and not encroach. I actually wonder whether I would have persevered without BL opening as it seemed nobody had room to breathe. I have not seen any of the attempted discussions or responses and have no knowledge of Myll's motivations but the lack of room before BL could well have inspired an aggressive approach. In RL I live in a country with an extremely low population density and this desire for my own space definitely transfers to the virtual environment. I offer this observation purely as a new player in the hope that it may shed a little light on possible motivating factors from a new players perspective. I also suspect that many newer players think Illy is a war game which it really isn't as their is no way to even contemplate conquering even one country with a 10 city limit which gains you approx 200 squares in a world with hundreds of thousands. When this is taken into account I find the refusal to respond in any meaningful way to the initial requests for talks truly bizarre and self defeating. I find it a lot easier to be nice than antagonistic and the first step in being nice is nearly always communication of some sort. It sounds as if Fairy would be willing to keep the option of discussing a peaceful solution open but is very hard if the other side refuses to talk and I hope that this changes sooner rather than later as communication before the war is always easier than communication after the war but either way it will require communication to end dispute not weapons. |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 18:15
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Honestly, this is something you should have just done and kept out of the forums. It's a personal dispute between two alliances and because war isn't being declared, there is no need to draw attention to it. This kind of stuff happens all the time, people simply don't make threads about it because it doesn't concern anyone else. Nothing good will come from this thread. -------------  |
Posted By: Glin
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 18:34
| Makes sense to me. Two alliance leaders upholding their vision of alliance leadership duties. Using diplomacy was not an end all answer. Using restraint is the guiding policy according to this thread. Will this cause another global war? Who is safe from claiming sov and it being recognized if alliances pick and choose just how many squares is "far enough" A global decision was made. It should be honored. Otherwise piracy of sov and all economics of hunting and mining, harvesting are under threat. Perhaps the real reason why naps aren't working is that only those within same regions should be nap? Just a humble thought. |
Posted By: Aquennomi
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 18:53
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The consensus is 10 squares. And from what I understand, that has to do with exodusing rules and such and has been a long held convention. What people dont seem to be seeing here is that the talking started a long time ago, when the first violations started, with Sov issues etc. This did not just happen overnight, or without warning. This thread was made to let others in Illyria know why all the attacks on Myll, (they will come up in Global Chat) and to let them know this is not a departure from FAIRY's stances, but a well advertised and thought out execution of the alliances long time policy of protecting their own. So to say the thread was not needed, is an injustice to the community knows all , and can be akin to some of the thinking that kept the Western Hemisphere out of both WWs for so long and possibly led to some of the agressor's in those conflicts boldness. Not to try to paste any participants in Illyria as any real life counterparts, just I believe this was a good way to pre-empt some of the naysayers and problems that could have arose if ConFeds and Alliance members were to just blindly follow agreements. As for the Declare War issue, yes it is semantic, whether it is War on Myll or a "Police Action" semantic to some. But an important semantic in terms of what it takes to end the conflict. The above is purely my take on what is going down and in no way is meant to reflect the official stance of any party involved.  |
Posted By: Nokigon
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 19:18
I agree.
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Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 19:34
Not true. I do not remember any "global" meeting since I've been here and there is no record of such a meeting from before my time in Illyriad. Some alliances claim 10, others do not (I've seen one or two claim more). It's their policy. There is no consensus. There are alliances that want to use this policy and enforce it on others and there are alliances that disagree. Plain and simple. ------------- |
Posted By: Bimoda
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 19:35
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@Brids You know that whether or not this post was made, there would have been discussions in GC. This just made our position clear and on the record, and as I said before, I wanted to make sure the rank and file of [Wave] knew that we are not painting them all with the same brush that we do Myll. @Zarhunt I agree, Myll's actions do seem bizarre if you are a reasonable and courteous player. I'm happy to see that you seem to be.  ------------- Bimoda - Dragon Fairy: Illyria Fairy Nation [FAIRY] |
Posted By: Bimoda
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 19:38
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@abstractdream I'm sure there never was a global meeting. This is more like common-law. The concept pre-dates either of us, and has been upheld by most alliances playing the game for a very long time. ------------- Bimoda - Dragon Fairy: Illyria Fairy Nation [FAIRY] |
Posted By: Steven Quincy Urpel
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 20:27
| Didn't Myll announce that he was going to quit in GC a couple weeks ago? |
Posted By: Bimoda
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 20:28
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@Steven: We were told by members in [Wave] that is no longer the case and that he is still in charge. ------------- Bimoda - Dragon Fairy: Illyria Fairy Nation [FAIRY] |
Posted By: DeliciousJosh
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 20:33
I agree as well. With that said, I think Myll is doing something interesting to the game by doing what he is doing. The 10square "rule" is simply.... dead ------------- PublicRelations HumanResources |
Posted By: mitu
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 21:14
i agree as well , |
Nokigon wrote:Posted By: HerpyDerper
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 23:43
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This is oh my god i love the community
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Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 23:48
maintaining that razing a leader's cities is not war is an odd interpretation of the word; i read that as meaning that Fairy considers itself at war with Myll rather than with WAVE as a whole. |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 00:29
They conveniently left that door open, though, by stating that if anyone tries to defend Myll, those people will also become targets. It would seem unusual to sit back and let your alliance leader get razed without resistance, even hopeless resistance. I'm curious why this minor disagreement went straight to razing cities. Why not just send some diplo or military harassment at the offending city (or player) until the problem is resolved? Most players wouldn't keep a city in a location where they suffered a few catapult drive-by attacks. There are more subtle levers to pull in this game without resorting to destruction. |
Posted By: Grego
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 00:49
I'm curious too why people in Illyriad are so eager to raze cities. It is first move in most cases. |
Posted By: DeliciousJosh
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 01:24
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/me feels like defending Myll ------------- PublicRelations HumanResources |
Posted By: Bimoda
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 01:30
@Josh: From your own alliance's profile. Dark follows the same convention that we are upholding.SettlingAll people settling near DARK players must settle atleast 10 Squares away, unless you contact them for permission.------------- Bimoda - Dragon Fairy: Illyria Fairy Nation [FAIRY] |
Posted By: Flavius Aetius
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 01:42
I don't believe it's the policy itself that is being enforced, but how the policy is being enforced. ------------- Cry havoc and let slip the eagles of freedom - The Raven King |
Posted By: Bimoda
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 02:04
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I understand how some may look at it as extreme. But the complete unwillingness to discuss moving the cities and the firm stance that they will continue to do it regardless of what anyone else expects put an end to our negotiating the point. We could have like some have said, escalated in steps. Used diplomatic attacks, but what are thieves/spies/assassins really going to accomplish? Plus, we had no desire to drag their whole alliance into a back and forth that would carry on and on. This is what would have happened if we started going after the individual towns. Myll declared on his alliances profile that they are Not a peaceful alliance. He says that they will wage war when beneficial to their claims. How is using the same kind of force that they propose on their alliance page so far out of order? Especially, since we are limiting our penalty to the one player who is promoting the issue.
------------- Bimoda - Dragon Fairy: Illyria Fairy Nation [FAIRY] |
Posted By: DeliciousJosh
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 03:17
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I disagree with my alliances policy about the 10square "rule", Bimoda. What to do? I think you should stop the siege on Myll. ------------- PublicRelations HumanResources |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 03:21
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I don't really understand the logic of this argument. At first you condemned WAVE's actions for being outside the community accepted norms of Illyriad. Then, when people were critical of your raze intentions (which are also outside community accepted norms), you justify them by speculating about the meaning of statements on WAVE's alliance profile. If the entire cornerstone of your justification is the violation of community consensus, then violating community consensus seems like an awfully strange way to proceed. I have no particular objection to you flattening this dude. I object to the elaborate dog-and-pony shows that seem to be part of Illyriad warfare. Brids is right, this should have been done quietly and without forum posts. I've rarely seen anything positive come from PR-style statements on the forums. |
Posted By: Aurordan
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 05:11
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Your stance here seems to be drifting more and more toward you not liking what was written on their alliance profile. I'm just not convinced that's a valid reason to siege people. This would, I'm pretty sure, have made it into public debate anyway, when the siege notifications came up, if nothing else.
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Posted By: RorschachRev
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 05:34
| What's to discuss? penalize the offending player and if his alliance wants to alter his behavior as a means of protecting him from his consequences then by all means, discuss it between alliances. Raze away - but be willing to allow the player to move his city as he should have in the first place. Lesson learned, on with life. |
Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 06:17
so if Myll is actually playing, one might hope that he will take notice and make some response. if he is not, Fairy might raze everything he has and still have no remedy to the offence... |
Posted By: TanyaFairy
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 06:29
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Hi Everyone no, the alliance has been told that if they still refuse to move the city or even negotiate about it we will next target Myll's alt. After that we will target the next alliance leader....whoever that may be. Tanya
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Posted By: Steven Quincy Urpel
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 07:22
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WAVE does not appear to have any veteran accounts other than Myll's, so you might wanna reconsider your options if you wipe out his cities and nothing comes of it. Just my two cents. ------------- They call me MISTER Urp! |
Posted By: bansisdead
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 07:56
So are you solely targeting Myll or not? You seem to be saying two different things. ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/124253" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Kurgar
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 09:41
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Posted By: Cancarix
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 10:40
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First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007391" rel="nofollow - Martin Niemöller (1892-1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps. If this game allows this type of behavior of the great partnerships with small, is not interesting playing here. That happened in real life a long time and gives bears repeating in a game. Where should new players stay?, in concentration camps?, reservations?. If the veteran players of good will do nothing, this game will die and will deserve to die. |
Posted By: Nokigon
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 11:48
| Godwin's Law is strong in this one. |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 12:51
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Wow this topic is so much "fun" ... On the one hand we have one alliance who has blatantly claimed that they will not respect a common convention held by many alliances (and it is written in there in many cases) and they will stand up to their own way of playing. On the other hand we have an alliance which has publicly set for itself a rule which it upholds and it claims that they will enforce it on their own "claimed" lands. The rule is not unheard of and quite common and so, after the rule being broken they tried diplomacy and failed and now they announce that what they are going to actually go after the real perpetrator of the action, the alliance leader and none other. Both sides have a reasonable argument, both are respectable viewpoints and both have the right to play the game as they like. So, what exactly IS the whole debate about .?.  -------------   Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p |
Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 13:15
Yeeha, it's Ranchers vs. Farmers  All the discussion about the 10 squares is a bit black and white to me. In VIC and in many alliances, the stance is, if within 10 square please ask. In 99% of the cases you'll get a definite YES from the player being there first. If the player didn't ask permission, in 90% of the cases he'll get a mail saying "Hey, usually it's not OK what you're doing, please ask next time, but you can stay as it's not in the way..."  Thus all the discussion about no place being left is a bit over the top IMO. If one specific alliance chooses not to ask, where there are high chances to get everything they want by being nice... well, really dumb and really bad luck for them.  I for my part completely agree with Fairy in this!
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Posted By: iwannaplay
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 14:53
| Illy is getting too crowded to maintain the 10 square convention anymore and the game itself doesnt even abide by it. Look at the newb ring.... there aren't any cities that are 10 squares from another. |
Posted By: Cancarix
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 15:23
| I understand you Hora, Mussolini always agree Hitler. You are the same. |
Posted By: Bimoda
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 15:58
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@iwannaplay Whether the 10 square rule should be reexamined is a valid question. I personally think it makes much sense. Not all players are going to sov areas that are just the closest around them. Many will pick and choose areas based on things like production bonuses or as in the case of [Fairy] and others like [Roads], for road templates. Many times, the terrain immediately around a city may not be ideal for sov'ing. I have not found the 10 square rule to be an impediment to playing, even before BL opened up and doubled the map. I enjoy scouring the map and finding those gems of spots for myself and my alliance members. To have someone go and plop down in the middle of it is distressing to say the least. I put MANY hours into looking for good Exodus, Tenaril and Siege locations for our players. As for the Newbie ring, that is an exception that is built into the game. It is a spawn area and has different rules. That is why many players work hard to pick spots in areas like The Wastes. To get out of the congestion. It is like saving up to move from the city to a nice spot in the country. We've had the BL expansion and if the devs feel that population density warrants it, I'm sure other continents will follow.
------------- Bimoda - Dragon Fairy: Illyria Fairy Nation [FAIRY] |
Posted By: Bimoda
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 16:03
@Cancarix: Is there ever an argument on the internet that doesn't dissolve into someone calling someone else Hitler?
------------- Bimoda - Dragon Fairy: Illyria Fairy Nation [FAIRY] |
Posted By: Bimoda
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 16:05
@Deranzin: And surprisingly enough this little action has almost as many posts as the H? Peace Terms post for a war that has been going on for Months. I guess people are just bored.
------------- Bimoda - Dragon Fairy: Illyria Fairy Nation [FAIRY] |
Posted By: Thexion
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 16:08
Let the hounds of probaganda roar.. |
Posted By: GM Rikoo
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 16:28
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Commanders please refrain from calling each other Hitler/Nazis/ whatever. I will warn this time, but if it pops up again I will get rid of the post and possibly quiet the person. Plus, don't be THAT player. GM Rikoo ------------- Illyriad Community Manager / Public Relations / community@illyriad.co.uk |
Posted By: Bimoda
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 16:38
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+1 that Rikoo I'm still trying to figure out if he was referring to me? I always looked at myself more as a Gen. MacArthur. (But better looking) 
------------- Bimoda - Dragon Fairy: Illyria Fairy Nation [FAIRY] |
Posted By: bansisdead
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 17:11
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So you still haven't answered my question, is this aggression solely aimed at Myll, as was originally proposed or as TanyaFairy states who ever is leader? ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/124253" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 18:57
I've had more cities drop down within 10 of me or my alliance mates, unannounced than I've had players contact any of us for permission, or to at least let us know. Based on that and the abundance of cities that can be found closer than the so called rule of 10 (outside of the newb ring), I'm thinking there are quite a few players and alliances who don't abide by it. Some of you say that if asked, you'll allow it. So, it's not a rule to keep cities further than 10. For those who try to implement it, it's a rule to dictate who can and who cannot settle nearby. The 10 square rule is based on game mechanics. It has been extended, by alliance policy to include more than the developers designed it to encompass. Many alliances don't abide by it. Some on both sides are willing to take it to war. Myll is pushing his members to go into places they are not welcomed. Who knows what the point of this is? If it's simply to be provocative, and there are so many other ways to do that, what's the point? Is the territory so coveted? I don't think so. There is so much room in TBL, it's overwhelming when viewed in comparison to Elgea. I just don't get it. Fairy says they have exhausted diplomacy. They have announced that they will be taking down Myll, one city at a time until he relents and calls for the removal of the violating city. If diplomacy is not working, as they say, this seems like a good strategy to me. It looks fairly cut and dry, in my opinion. One alliance, with more power is dictating how and where another alliance, with less power can play. ------------- |
Posted By: Ista
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 19:00
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This is Gaia's response: I think it’s time to little explain where I’m standing. When I decided to start Illyriad the reason was partially game rules. I game here and then saw in alliance pages many times 10-tile rule there written. Myll kindly explained to me some history of that so called rule. Then checked some forums and talked about it with other people. It was clear there is no such rule in the game. Only rule is that I can’t exodus to that area. BUT you CAN do it if you claim sovereignty V to that tile. So,
Gaia |
Posted By: Ista
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 19:02
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Tanya, Ok you have succeeded in wiping out Myll's cities. Who's next? Myll's is gone. We have a Council of Five running the alliance. EDIT: (from the rules section)
Do not post any more IGMs. GM Rikoo |
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Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 19:25
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So, I can see at least one better spot very near that Faction Hub but away from Fairy cities. There are more. Why did Gaia pick the spot she did? I can only think of one reason, to specifically throw Fairy's policy in their face. Sounds like an act of war to me. ------------- |
Posted By: Ista
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 19:36
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So if we bow down to you, live by "your" rules, we get to continue
playing the game. In the meantime you are stealing the resources we
needed to grow as an alliance by destroying Myll's cities. We tried to be diplomatic. We have taken the high road and not gotten into any public forum war. Fairies response from the beginning has been. 1. Remove city they felt was in violation of "their" policy even though they failed to exercise due diligence in rectifying this before Sov 5 was claimed. 2. Upon learning Myll was no longer Tsunami leader suggested WAVE join Fairies alliance. When offer not accepted. 3. Waged war, and yes Tanya it is a war, on Myll's cities. It has been stated by Fairy leadership that if we do not bow down to "their demands" after Myll's cities are destroyed they will come after the next alliance leader or anyone who intercedes. This is simply a case of a larger alliance bullying a smaller one and attempting to keep other players away from the faction hub. This type of behavior and attitude is exactly why I stopped playing LoU. When I came here I was told that this kind of behavior wasn't tolerated in Illy. Seems I was misinformed. We do not agree with "your" 10 sq policy but we also do not blatantly establish our cities close to another alliances without following the proper game rules as was done in this case. In the beginning we had discussed, among ourselves, offering a NAP with Fairy but once threats starting being issued we felt that a NAP was a mute point. Not on our part but on Fairies. I will speak for myself, and not the alliance, at this point: If you want to continue with your high handed bullying tactics then go ahead and place my cities next on your list of cities to destroy. I WILL NOT bow down. I WILL NOT be told what I can and cannot do based on your whims. I would rather end my short tenure here at Illy standing up to spoiled little bullies than bowing down like a little wimp. If it makes you feel like a big dog then go ahead. There are too many games out there to play and every one of them has people with your mentality in them. I am too old to be dictated to by little girls. Now it is up to you to act like a grown up and cease and desist your attacks on our alliance, and yes that includes Myll's cities, or to continue to stomp your feet cause you aren't getting your way. My apologies to WAVE for speaking out when I agreed to let this play out. But I am done with this nonsense. |
Posted By: nighthawk7
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 19:46
| I agree with Ista on everything that was said. I came from LOU as well and thought this game would be great as there isn't any bullying. This has obviously shown its not the case. The ONLY reason they have attacked is because they are a much larger alliance than we are and can do what they want with us. We stand no chance to defend ourselves against these bullies. Add me to the list of which ones you want to attack next. I am like Ista and will not bow down to your rules. I'm sure my huge 989 population town will be fun for you to raze as well since you like to raze smaller than you towns/alliances. |
Posted By: Steven Quincy Urpel
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 19:57
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Y'all should get an "I am Spartacus" / "I am Myll" meme going here. ------------- They call me MISTER Urp! |
Posted By: Loredena
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 19:59
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Ok, so I'm going to ask the obvious question. If all Gaia wanted was to be near the hub, why not go here: http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/-705/664" rel="nofollow - http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/-705/664 It's closer to the hub, same res plots as where she went, better dolman near by, and not in someone's 10 so wouldn't have cost her SOV 5. What am I missing? Hell, why not just exodus there once Bimoda complained instead of digging in her heels? We've all done it - I moved a freshly started city as a new player when I was 9.6 away, because I didn't know any better! Yes, it took freaking forever to be ready to exodus, but in this case Gaia won't even lose anything to the move since she just did it.  |
Posted By: TanyaFairy
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 20:00
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Hi Everyone Apparently you did not read our list of Terms before you posted it here in the forums. We showed you the respect of sending them to you before we posted them here. Posting our terms to you, appears to be some sort of mocking of us and saying no to them. I believe our terms to you were fair, by Illy standards, and totally respectful to your alliance. As has been pointed out before, this is not really about the 10 square rule. That is a rule that we adhere to as an alliance. All we asked was that you communicate with us. That is all that we expected from Myll. We are not little girls and we are not stomping our feet. We did not undertake this endeavor lightly, we discussed it amongst ourselves and were told by Myll and others that you would continue to disregard our policies. The decision is your not ours as to whether to accept our terms to end this. TanyaFairy
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Posted By: Bimoda
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 20:01
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Well at least we now know that Gaia can speak. You say that I did not ask nicely? Here is my IGM to you. EDIT: (from the rules section)
Do not post any more IGMs. The next person who does can be banned from the forums. GM Rikoo
------------- Bimoda - Dragon Fairy: Illyria Fairy Nation [FAIRY] |
Posted By: Aquennomi
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 20:05
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Did they not offer Myll's cities to [WAVE] members? Did they not offer to leave "violating" cities in place and help them grow? Did they not offer a way to avoid future conflicts and even need to Sov? Seems like they made it easy for the new members and alliance to grow, without impeding on their own growth potentials. With out a NAP, neither side can bring new cities in without the expense and time of Sov, Seems logical to this orc. |
Posted By: Zarhunt
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 20:10
I find it sad when everybody in this forum so far regardless of whether they agree or not has managed to express their opinions in a civilised manner, that you have to resort to insulting somebody you disagree with. One of the things I really like about the Illy community is the way that people tend to treat others with respect. If this is something you have problems with I hope you do lose your interest in playing or at least participating in forums and move on.
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Posted By: Bimoda
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 20:14
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I honestly think it is coming down to a case of "I came from LoU and I want it my way or else". Although I'm loath to admit it, I cam from LoU also. I love this game and the fact that there are game rules and player devises "rules". I was fortunate enough to find my way into a group that is very helpful to new players and respectful of others. I've come to expect that from other groups out there and happily I've found it even from alliances that many have conflicts with.
------------- Bimoda - Dragon Fairy: Illyria Fairy Nation [FAIRY] |
Posted By: nighthawk7
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 20:14
In my opinion all those were good. However, its the main requirement that we would not like in that it involves the 10 square "rule". Its not our rule so why would we agree to that? My opinion only I'm not a leader.
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Posted By: Aquennomi
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 20:22
So you would rather cause conflict, than a simple IGM to "ask for permission" that 99 times out of 100 will be given freely, and the other time a better for you suggestion will be made? Seems self destructive to me. (Also played LoU) |
Posted By: Bimoda
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 20:32
@Rikoo My apologies, I had no idea that was against the rules.
------------- Bimoda - Dragon Fairy: Illyria Fairy Nation [FAIRY] |
Posted By: nighthawk7
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 20:37
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I personally will and have found spaces away from cities... I want it for my own growth. I think her city was tactical in that it was near the hub and based on spots? I don't know all the true benefits of the tiles and benefits of them other than large food spots for population. We also want to be in the wastes.... Infact I harvest regularly inside the "5 tile rule" or whatever you call it. I did have someone destroy my caravans and send spies to my city... warning received and I stopped around that person.. asked another for permission as well. I would personally do it more of a courtesy but if its a spot I really wanted then I'd still go there. If we were a larger alliance and able to defend ourselves this wouldn't be an issue.
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Posted By: Zarhunt
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 20:46
The only problem with your argument Nighthawk it that it can easily be turned around. Fairy can as easily say your policy is not theirs so why should they agree to it. That is the purpose of dialogue and negotiation. Fairy have offered to help you find places to grow and expand, yet all we have heard from your side is we don't like the 10 square rule. With the opening of BL the crowding issue has been alleviated for a while, as a fairly new player myself, (I started about 2 weeks before LoU closed), I too was rather worried about how I was going to grow or find anywhere to carve out a spot for myself especially with the 10 square rule. I too thought I would never gain access to any worthwhile resources when they all seemed to already be occupied. However, you can't realistically expect to have this when you are a new player, unless you are at there for the start of a game established players are always going to have the better spots when you arrive and the resources and knowledge to secure them for themselves. To expect to be on an equal footing or to be the ones making and enforcing policy is perhaps a trifle ambitious. If you are really that opposed to the 10 square rule and negotiation because of it, I would recommend taking up Fairy's offer taking the time to grow and when you have gathered strength and influence, then try and make a change from within, this may take 12 months or more but you can continue to try and change people's minds whilst you are growing through dialogue. This would appear to me to be a much more pragmatic way of trying to achieve your goals as opposed to a futile military stance you are in no position to support.
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Posted By: Loredena
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 20:49
/disclaimer I'm a member of Fairy I don't think that that is true NightHawk - Fairy is good sized, yet I was asked to move my town when I had settled my third city within the 10 of another player (and just barely within 10 at that, not within 6!) and I know others within Fairy have done so as well. I've been involved in several 'you're too close, oops sorry! conversations from the side of the town whose 10 squares were moved in on as well. In one or two cases we assisted in a move because the spot was already being held for an alliance member, in others we agreed to leave the town in place. The alliances have varied in size, but I know when it happened to a friend the alliance was *much* smaller than Tsunami (about 5 members) and after some back in forth she agreed to allow the town to stay, with agreement that they could claim the food sov they had settled next to, but that they would not dispute ownership of the herb spots they had also settled by that were in her 5. The difference is that they didn't try to claim that the player-rule was one that could be flouted at will, without repercussions. In other words - you can do whatever you want within 5 or 10 squares of someone else, but don't be surprised if they take offense and retaliate! While I and others in Fairy tend to play it as an online Civ game (I primarily harvest and trade) it IS still a game that supports and encourages pvp.
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Posted By: Aquennomi
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 20:52
Harvest vs sov/settle are 2 different things. And it would be an issue , the size of the alliance is not an issue, especially since the action was taken against the informed person who was ill advising. And if you learned to ask on the harvesting, perhaps you and others will learn to ask before settling so close as well. That is all the [FAIRY] alliance has asked for is this courtesy. And asking for a NAP, even alleviates the need for sov first, and makes it unrestricted, for both parties (per game mechanics), though the newcomers should still out of courtesy consult with those that are established there. |
Posted By: nighthawk7
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 21:07
| The size is very much the issue. If we were as large as they were then they wouldn't be able to do what they are doing now. We have no chance to defend against them so they can attack at will. |
Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 21:30
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Posted By: Aquennomi
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 21:39
If other alliance had survived long enough to get large, the incident would never have happened. And if it did, [FAIRY] not being a small alliance, I am sure could handle it, against most larger alliance leaders as well. Myll's size was not a factor in determining [FAIRY]'s actions. His stance and poor leadership decisions were. If size were a factor, I am sure it would of been a [WAVE] wide tsunami on the little alliance. |
Posted By: nighthawk7
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 21:44
| Either way... taking out all of the cities belonging to a person seems excessive to me. Ok destroy some, attack, or whatever but wiping him out completely seems more to it to me. |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 22:13
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People go to GC about things all the time. People have done it countless times about me. And you know what happened? Nothing. I didn't explain myself or try to defend my actions, I just went about my business and all that would happen was someone would demanded my cities be sieged, which never happened. I understand wanting to be clear to everyone about your position but you should have simply sent a message to every member in WAVE instead. Everyone else is going to criticize you and pick you apart despite having nothing to do with the matter and are unwilling to get involved anyway, short of complaining about you in the forums. Thread or no. As I said, nothing good will come of this thread. ------------- |
Posted By: Aquennomi
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 22:18
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Well he, quit, if he had said lets work things out, then it MIGHT of been possible for his total destruction to be averted. But as most cowards he bailed, took easy way out and left it to his successor to work it out. |
Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 22:19
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I really get annoyed by the "OMG they are taking out all the cities!" sentence... ... hey, they offer you to stop the attacks as soon as you agree to move one little silly town, which might, perhaps, loose some 10 pop... if the smaller side is too stubborn to accept this "kind" offer, ehm, bad luck for Myll?... And about game rules: As this is a sandbox, you're all fully allowed to annoy your neighbour, as well as he is fully allowed to squash you without even telling you why! The 10 square rule is a really nice offer to tell smaller alliances (and also diplomatic bigger alliances): "Hey, I'm fully OK with anything outside the 10 squares, and please ask if closer..." And listen to a former Ogame player: It could be far worse!
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Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 22:26
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<joke> /Me searches Illy for Cancarix to raze down all his towns... oh, he doesn't even have an existing account? Pity! <end of joke>
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Posted By: Afar
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 23:37
| As I can not post e-mail here there is no point in arguing any of the finer points of so called diplomatic points here but when our alliance went for not moving the city the simple and sane path was not taken. Instead it is basicly we will now destroy you starting with Myll and his alt and then if any of your alliance try to defend his cities we will destroy them too. I read here were it is stated that the rest of the remaining leadership is next on the fairy hit list. I won't go into the resent terms offered there is no point. As far as I'm concerned and I do not have any final say here any further diplomatic offers should be as public as you have made this non war of yours in this forum. I'm real new here but it would be nice to know who is in charge in fairy |
Posted By: lethargic0N3
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2014 at 23:53
Everynow and then I miss Ogame, then I remember having to fleetsave I wish people would understand that the only 10 sq rule that really exists is for exodus and tenaril and that can be overcome with lvl 5 sov... beyond that you can do what you like, but you will have to deal with the consequences of your actions. |
Posted By: Aral
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2014 at 00:47
I'm going to make this really simple for everyone in this thread:
It doesn't matter what you think about the guideline set in place by some alliances concerning the 314.159 (about) squares around their cities, unless you (or someone else) have the troops available to make it matter. Can we all agree on this simple fact?
------------- Aral Llc is not responsible for any grievous bodily harm sustained while reading this signature. No rights reserved. |
Posted By: Glin
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2014 at 01:24
| edit....sorry, accidentally responding to IGM on forum... Carry on |
Posted By: Nokigon
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2014 at 09:33
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Aral- ummm, yes. I've always been a big supporter of doing what you want, so long as you don't cry foul when your actions get yourself into trouble. |
Posted By: DaniSuper
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2014 at 19:09
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Sigh, I just dont know what the fuss was all about...It seems to me that really Myll dug his own grave in this case. A little bit of diplomacy would have saved all this from happening. Honestly, it wouldnt have costed a thing if Gaia had just moved her city. I recently settled my city in BL, and found a nice spot (with dolmens and all) but another player was enroute near it, however once realising that I had settled there first, he decided to leave. He was larger in size and was from a good respected alliance too however with some dialogue we easily resolved the issue. Similarly in another case my friend had to move because another player had arrived there first. What I mean to say is, the conflict got resolved easily, something which WAVE could have done as well. Some people are criticising FAIRY, but honestly how much does it take to just move the city a few tiles which WAVE could have done. WAVE might even have developed a nice friendly relation in the process But instead the leader chose a non-cooperative policy. I still believe WAVE can mend the ties if they choose to do so. Anyways just my thoughts on the issue Cheers |
Posted By: Dungshoveleux
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2014 at 19:58
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war is the continuation of diplomacy by other means. Rather than compromise, I think Myll has brought all this on himself/herself? Compromise is king in this game where it takes months to build up and a few days to destroy all that hard work.
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Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2014 at 06:18
------------- |
Posted By: Bimoda
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2014 at 07:18
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Wave has already been informed that this siege will be recalled. ------------- Bimoda - Dragon Fairy: Illyria Fairy Nation [FAIRY] |