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14Jun14 - Tenaril's Capitals

Printed From: Illyriad
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URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=5673
Printed Date: 21 Aug 2019 at 00:05
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Topic: 14Jun14 - Tenaril's Capitals
Posted By: GM ThunderCat
Subject: 14Jun14 - Tenaril's Capitals
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2014 at 13:03
Tenaril's Spell of Ultimate Teleportation

The Circle of Five have made a major break through after dispatching research party to Stormstone Island - Teneril's Relocation spell may be used on non capital cities.


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Replies:
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2014 at 13:26
I think the date should be 14 June 2014?  And is it still 1 Tenaril spell per account?  Or 1 Tenaril spell per city?


Posted By: DeliciousJosh
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2014 at 13:27
"You have already cast Tenaril's Relocation Spell for this player, and cannot move it again."

*sadface*


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Posted By: Sheza
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2014 at 13:38
I got the same message .   sadder face and tears.........  =( .  

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If Horses don't go to Heaven when they die. then I want to go where they go.


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2014 at 13:45
If it's still just one Tenaril per account, it seems like this will make life a lot easier for terraformers.  No need to siege down the first city, just settle the second, Tenaril it, abandon the account, wash, rinse and repeat.

I'm not sure I'm a fan of that.  I'm ambivalent about specialized terraformers in the first place.  (Although I have used them as a tool, I originally looked at it as an exploit until the developers specifically said it wasn't.)

It's hard for me to imagine huge practical implications for non-terraformers, since if your capital is on a 5-food square and you want all your cities on 7-food squares, you're still going to have to build toward Exodus eventually.

As a new player you could leave your capital in the newb ring of death and Tenaril a 7-food settled city to Broken Lands.  But there are already plenty of places for 7-food cities in Broken Lands as it is.  You might as well just Tenaril your capital down there and settle a 7-food city, then if you want to later Exodus the capital to a 7-food square.

I guess the main advantage is the ability to easily place a 7-food city on non 7-food terrain, whether a terraformer or not.  It could open the way for more interesting city defenses.  I can imagine a lot more dwarves and orcs in forests with at least one city, so it could improve gameplay in that respect, more variety in fighting terrains.


Posted By: Sheza
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2014 at 13:56
Is it going to take a while before we can use the spell. ??    

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If Horses don't go to Heaven when they die. then I want to go where they go.


Posted By: DeliciousJosh
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2014 at 14:46
Yes.

Terraforming made easy!


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Posted By: Demonic Spoon
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2014 at 18:04
Awesome. Minor thing, you still need to fix the Tenaril Spell's description.


Posted By: kodabear
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2014 at 18:49
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

If it's still just one Tenaril per account, it seems like this will make life a lot easier for terraformers.  No need to siege down the first city, just settle the second, Tenaril it, abandon the account


That is great and it means T? can do terraforming alot quicker.


Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2014 at 20:04
I think this will really encourage account churn for terraforming, as the process will now be simpler. Just get to 450 population, dispatch a settler, teleport, siege, abandon the account, repeat. Of course, even now you can siege and destroy the first city.

I'd recommend that the devs consider making Tenaril like an instant exodus, with the city taking on the underlying resource distribution of the target square (rather than the current method of bringing plots with them).

On the up side, I think this will make it easier for new players to transition out of the ring quickly to a home alliance, without the strain of needing to exodus the capital first.


Posted By: Miklabjarnir
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2014 at 02:57
I never liked the terraforming idea in the first place, and think it is detrimental to the game. I would like the spell to get a new restriction - that it does not work on anything bigger than a town, for instance.


Posted By: Demonic Spoon
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2014 at 08:34
That won't do anything to the terraforming.


Posted By: Aurordan
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2014 at 08:43
I'm glad they fixed whatever problem this was causing, I guess...


Posted By: jordigui
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2014 at 08:47
As already said before, this will make terraforming much easier (faster) and this makes things much easier for those who just create alts to terraform and then abandon them and repeat the process. As I see it, this process is similar to permasitting, and it seems that devs are encouraging it ... Could we have your opinion about the creation and destruction of alts just for terraforming purposes?
One solution would be that the terrain that you bring with the city when you Tenaril is only maintained while the city is owned by the Tenaril caster. If that city is afterwards sieged or abandoned, the terrain comes back to the original resource distribution. Or if you prefer, to avoid just this behaviour it could disappear once the Tenaril caster account is abandoned or the Tenaril account distribution could be maintain only if the initial owner holds it for 1 year ... As you see, many solutions to avoid this (as I understand) pervasive behaviour.
THanks


Posted By: Artefore
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2014 at 04:29
What's the big issue with terraforming?  It's opening up spaces in elgea that wouldn't be nearly as good as they are without it, enabling players who either don't want to make the big move down to BL or who aren't able to expand easily due to proximity to other people to grow.  

It's not even closely related to permasitting, it's actually impossible to do with a permasat account.  

Oh, and it appears the newbies can make some good money by making alts and selling them to established players, which is a win-win situation for all involved.  

It's a game mechanic, and the devs have been aware of it for a long time.  I'm not sure why they would become suddenly opposed to it, as it's encouraging growth in their game.  


Posted By: Alfred
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2014 at 10:04
Originally posted by Artefore Artefore wrote:

What's the big issue with terraforming?  It's opening up spaces in elgea that wouldn't be nearly as good as they are without it, enabling players who either don't want to make the big move down to BL or who aren't able to expand easily due to proximity to other people to grow.  

It's not even closely related to permasitting, it's actually impossible to do with a permasat account.  

Oh, and it appears the newbies can make some good money by making alts and selling them to established players, which is a win-win situation for all involved.  

It's a game mechanic, and the devs have been aware of it for a long time.  I'm not sure why they would become suddenly opposed to it, as it's encouraging growth in their game.  

Because it's a bodge job of a broken game mechanic. ( or a temp Hotfix to demand )
Devs spent time making hoards of new terrain for the broken-lands, Yet really, All players want is 7 food.. everything else at 7 is near pointless unless you like different squares visually.

Although, Time vs effect, Another big patch c:

( Pre the foot solider build time changes, Cav was king, on it's terrain type with the only source of 7 food apart from the few that knew/did terraforming sneaking.. double broken c: )


Posted By: Alfred
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2014 at 10:29
But I think the main reason for the fuss is, It allows new players, rebuilders and returning players to quickly gain on the power of the old blocks.

You need only look at the length players have gone to gain control of chunks of the map, 7 food freely available is the beginning of the end for the old structure of elgea. ( so many wars, dramas etc.. )
Plus.. the envy of "people get it easier than I had it" ;p


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2014 at 15:44
Thinking that this somehow makes terraforming substantially more available than it was doesn't make a lot of sense.  Basically for the "professional" terraformer it skips the step of needing to have the capital city sieged down.  So it will be a little faster.  But honestly the main holdup for most experienced players who build an alt to terraform is losing the rainbow; a city can easily be built to 450 population (with a lot of outside support) and a settler built within 7 days.

I don't see this as a major game-changer from the "professional" terraformers perspective.

It could be helpful to new players who want to tenaril 7-food squares, but that leaves us with a couple problems;

1)  What is the new player supposed to do with the 5-food capital they leave in the newb ring when they Tenaril?  Leave it there?  Exodus?  Have it sieged down?  These are the same problems faced by newbs who were debating Exo-Tenaril.  Maybe it makes it a little easier to get a 7-food city out of the new player ring, but getting two 7-food cities in the same place still has the same challenges.

2)  Is this going to hasten the stripping of 7-food squares from central Elgea as newbs Tenaril them all to parts unknown?  (Even a completely different continent.)  Will it create the Great Central Desert?  Unless the developers have a mechanism for "healing" the Tenaril squares to restore 7-foods, soon 7-food squares in the newb ring will be in short supply and newbs will have to settle elsewhere to find 7-food anyway.


Posted By: Demonic Spoon
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2014 at 16:53
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

2)  Is this going to hasten the stripping of 7-food squares from central Elgea as newbs Tenaril them all to parts unknown?  (Even a completely different continent.)  Will it create the Great Central Desert?  Unless the developers have a mechanism for "healing" the Tenaril squares to restore 7-foods, soon 7-food squares in the newb ring will be in short supply and newbs will have to settle elsewhere to find 7-food anyway.


What? While the hypothetical scenario is amusing, to the best of my knowledge tenariling doesn't strip the resource plots from the square that was teleported from. The seven food squares remain. Each terraforming simply adds another 7 food square to the total. The thing we have to watch out for is aggressive terraforming of 1 food squares onto 7 food squares to spite people.


Posted By: kodabear
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2014 at 18:14
Originally posted by Demonic Spoon Demonic Spoon wrote:

Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

2)  Is this going to hasten the stripping of 7-food squares from central Elgea as newbs Tenaril them all to parts unknown?  (Even a completely different continent.)  Will it create the Great Central Desert?  Unless the developers have a mechanism for "healing" the Tenaril squares to restore 7-foods, soon 7-food squares in the newb ring will be in short supply and newbs will have to settle elsewhere to find 7-food anyway.


What? While the hypothetical scenario is amusing, to the best of my knowledge tenariling doesn't strip the resource plots from the square that was teleported from. The seven food squares remain. Each terraforming simply adds another 7 food square to the total. The thing we have to watch out for is aggressive terraforming of 1 food squares onto 7 food squares to spite people.

you cant make a 7 food to a 1 food to would be people making 7 food to a 5 food.


Posted By: Demonic Spoon
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2014 at 07:51
Originally posted by kodabear kodabear wrote:

you cant make a 7 food to a 1 food to would be people making 7 food to a 5 food.

I'm sorry but I'm just not quite getting what you're trying saying here. Rephrase? Guessing at you're meaning, to the best of my theoretical knowledge it's entirely possible to turn a 7 food square into a 1 food square if you tenaril a city you have settled on a 1-food square.


Posted By: DeliciousJosh
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2014 at 11:38
Originally posted by Artefore Artefore wrote:

What's the big issue with terraforming?  It's opening up spaces in elgea that wouldn't be nearly as good as they are without it, enabling players who either don't want to make the big move down to BL or who aren't able to expand easily due to proximity to other people to grow.  

It's not even closely related to permasitting, it's actually impossible to do with a permasat account.  

Oh, and it appears the newbies can make some good money by making alts and selling them to established players, which is a win-win situation for all involved.  

It's a game mechanic, and the devs have been aware of it for a long time.  I'm not sure why they would become suddenly opposed to it, as it's encouraging growth in their game.  

Good with some support.

I also like this function and see it as a positive factor in the world, making more things possible.
It wasn't really that hard before either, just took a bit longer.


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Posted By: Thexion
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2014 at 11:55
I don't know something that needs starting a new account for doing it in the game is bit dubious in my opinion since its not really option withing the game world.

Instead I wish there would spells that could enchant or change terrain to your liking.
Or option to just hire lot of serf to improve it.


Posted By: Captain Kindly
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2014 at 20:25
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Thinking that this somehow makes terraforming substantially more available than it was doesn't make a lot of sense.  Basically for the "professional" terraformer it skips the step of needing to have the capital city sieged down.  So it will be a little faster.  But honestly the main holdup for most experienced players who build an alt to terraform is losing the rainbow; a city can easily be built to 450 population (with a lot of outside support) and a settler built within 7 days.

I don't see this as a major game-changer from the "professional" terraformers perspective.


Being a professional Terraformer, I can tell you this is true.

I usually have my settler ready on day 5 or 6 (and that mainly because it takes 4 days to train one). Reaching 450 pop is done sooner. From that moment it's waiting until a siege army can be sent, which is when the rainbow drops. Demolishing buildings can be started as soon as the settler is on its way, by the way, since having 450 pop is no longer needed at that point.

All in all, it only wins you two days, on average.


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Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2014 at 22:49
+1 Thexion

...Even if it's totally legal...  I somehow think this is too much metagame. Confused

I'd really welcome a proper game mechanic, like you need a small village with >10 cotters working 10 days to switch a terrain type by +1/-1

That way, again small towns are favoured, but this time also established players with two VALID accounts can make use of that (when prepared to have a small terraforming village for some time...).

That way, it makes far more sense, it eliminates one reason for "fake" accounts, it's still hard to do (with the right parameters of time, costs, etc...)...

... AND:   The devs can brag with a really interactive worldmap in their advertisments  Wink


Posted By: Nesse
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 14:27
Originally posted by Hora Hora wrote:

+1 Thexion

...Even if it's totally legal...  I somehow think this is too much metagame. Confused

I'd really welcome a proper game mechanic, like you need a small village with >10 cotters working 10 days to switch a terrain type by +1/-1

That way, again small towns are favoured, but this time also established players with two VALID accounts can make use of that (when prepared to have a small terraforming village for some time...).

That way, it makes far more sense, it eliminates one reason for "fake" accounts, it's still hard to do (with the right parameters of time, costs, etc...)...

... AND:   The devs can brag with a really interactive worldmap in their advertisments  Wink


I second all of that. (Including the +1 to Thexion)


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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 18:46
I talked to GM Stormcrow about what happens to squares that are Tenariled out to terraform.  He reassured me on this point; the map has many "self-healing" qualities, and they are monitoring the distribution of 7-food squares.  So my concerns about a great central desert was just me being a worrywart.

Although ... would that not have made an epic setup for a movie plot?


Posted By: Miklabjarnir
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 19:21
I do not like the terraforming because it makes it too easy to settle places which ought to be difficult to settle. We are seeing this in the lava wastelands in the Broken Lands now, and we saw it in the ice wastes before. I am all in favour of some kind of game mechanism to make such places liveable, but it should take much more effort and need constant maintenance. 

If maintaining the Tenaril effects on the land would cost mana and research per level of farm (or other production building) above the original limit of the square, that would help. Ideally, I would want to see some new magic research with a very high mana drain on the new geomancy spell but the possibility to also influence sovreign squares. Then we could get Tenaril changed to be the counterpart to Exodus: no Tenaril if you have more than one city.



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