War predictions
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Politics & Diplomacy
Forum Description: If you run an alliance on Elgea, here's where you should make your intentions public.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=5343
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 14:30
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: War predictions
Posted By: geofrey
Subject: War predictions
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2013 at 15:45
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Just wanted to share one of my theories about where the current war is heading. For the past several weeks I have been monitoring the Herald siege page, and it has indicated that The Coaliation is receiving MANY more sieges than they are dishing out.
Before I go on, I want to make it clear that I do not know the success rate of these sieges outsides of the ones that VICX have executed. I can only conclude that the success rate of sieges is larger than 0, and less than 100%. It seems that the Coalition is not breaking the sieges against them as effectively as predicted. And they certainly are not coordinating the large scale offensive that we have come to expect from them. I am left to theorize why this is so. Beyond this point is pure speculation on my behalf. I have little to no evidence to support these wild theories of mind. I believe after suffering a few major troop losses early on, the Coalition (or maybe just Harmless?) have entered a "bunker down" mentality. I believe they are currently stockpiling troops as if they are in a cold war. They are accepting certain losses, trying to mitigate total loss of players cities through diplomacy, being highly tactical in their deployment of troops, and building like crazy. I wouldn't be surprised if some of their cities have 200% + build times on archers. I believe they are building a massive army while their opponents become comfortable with their current troop levels. Their highly tactical troop deployments is to reduce catapults and troops of their enemies with the best kill/death ratio possible. They are in essence whittling down their enemies while building something larger and faster than their opposition. Early on many players from both sides predicted this would be a war of attrition. A very long war that would last longer than any war before. I believe the current phase is only the beginning. Infact this might be categorized as the high point of the Allied forces. I am predicting that once the Coalition has amassed a large enough army. 10,000,000 t2 archers maybe? 100 million? I'm not forsure how "large" large is to them. But once they've meet that goal, we will see the Coalition take the offensive. Their first strike with such an army will be on a large mountain in the heartland of one of their enemies territories. This will be to give them the largest and strongest kill/death ratio possible, and to encourage allied forces to attack archers on a large mountain. It is clear that the current losses are acceptable to both sides, as no alliance has entered negotiations as far as I know. This can only mean one thing; Winter is coming. ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/45534" rel="nofollow">  |
Replies:
Posted By: scaramouche
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2013 at 16:39
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A winter of discontent. ------------- NO..I dont do the Fandango! |
Posted By: Neytiri
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2013 at 17:59
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I made this prediction a few days ago in another thread: ----- http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=5330&PID=71559&title=trivium#71559" rel="nofollow">  Posted: Nov 28 2013 at 19:31
I have this prediction: Exterminating an alliance is not a just
enough cause to keep people motivated to fight for the long term. (As
most of you know, Illy wars can last awhile.)I thought the right to organize was a just enough cause to keep the Consone members fighting, but even that led to boredom for some members of that assembly. There's an ugly side to the concept of forcing people out of the game because you don't like the way they play. One of the nice aspects to Illyriad is the flexibility to approach it however you like. I hope, out of the respect I have for those involved, that a better justification for this conflict will eventually surface. ------------- "It is well that their bodies know the heat and the cold; it will make them strong warriors and mothers." - Absaroke elder (from Edward S. Curtis's book 'The North American Indian') |
Posted By: Tatharion
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2013 at 18:19
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This reminds me of something quite extraordinary from RL I would like to share with you all: It is an extract from a letter sent by Staff sergeant Clement Barker four days after Christmas Day 1914:
“A messenger come over from German lines and said that if (our side) did not fire, they (the Germans) wouldn’t in the morning (Xmas day).” It was agreed, and the letter goes on to give a fascinating insight into the famous, brief truce. “A German looked over the trench – no shots – our men did the same, and then a few of our men went out and brought the dead in and buried them and the next thing a football kicked out of our Trenches and Germans and English played football.” The soldiers also shared carols, shook hands and exchanged cigarettes. Sgt Barker added: “We have conversed with the Germans and they all seem to be very much fed up and heaps of them are deserting. Some have given themselves up as prisoners, so things are looking quite rosy.” At the time it was hushed up because troops weren’t supposed to fraternise with the enemy. I sincerely hope the same spirit of chivalry could be displayed in Elgea in about three weeks. Best, Tatharion ------------- Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong. |
Posted By: Yeesha D'ni
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2013 at 19:57
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@Tatherion: War went on after the so called "Weihnachtsfrieden" (which was indeed a touching event), and costed all in all 17 Million human's lives till it was ended 4 years later. The opposite to Illyriad! This is a game with PVP elements, what people tend to forget. A game and not RL. So I would appreciate to leave all this heart - melting examples out of the current war discussion. It's emotional enough, as some people seem to forget, that Illyriad is nothing more than a game. |
Posted By: Elmindra
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2013 at 21:46
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On a side note, 200% sov is fairly basic. I have seen towns with 400-700% troop sov in this war. Honestly it is a simple matter of how much gold and T2 an alliance has access to. ------------- 
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Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2013 at 22:28
| Elmindra where did you see 700% troops sov? At 25% boost per sq for a lvl 5 you would need 28 sq's to do that. Or a city where all 20 sov sq's at +2% and they claimed lvl 5 on all of them. |
Posted By: Halcyon
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2013 at 22:32
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I saw a 700% troop sov.
'nough said.
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Posted By: Darkwords
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2013 at 22:33
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You mean H dont have that sov boosting discovery? LOL jk..... I wish. ------------- <Deranzin> I'd agree with darkone on that [21:59]<ropadope> you know I am perverted <Bartleby> dark is upsetting some peeps |
Posted By: Tatharion
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2013 at 22:38
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Halcyon, That's a bit of a "Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" type of comment. Is your middle name "Ozymandias"?  ------------- Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong. |
Posted By: Elmindra
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2013 at 00:03
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7x5x20=700 seen and confirmed. Like I was saying, if you aren't above 200 you aren't really trying. -------------
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Posted By: Darkwords
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2013 at 00:22
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Dont train them Elm
------------- <Deranzin> I'd agree with darkone on that [21:59]<ropadope> you know I am perverted <Bartleby> dark is upsetting some peeps |
Posted By: Elmindra
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2013 at 02:55
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Oops, I gave out the secret of MATH!
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Posted By: Halcyon
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2013 at 07:17
I did not say that it is my sov (it is not), only that I've seen it. |
Tatharion wrote:Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2013 at 09:46
I am not saying that you are lying BUT just to be clear you are claiming that there is a town that has a +2 bonus ALL around it on the SAME kind of troops  , runs 20*5 sov claim all around it and has lvl 5 military sov on them too which is - 2400 on all resources for each sov. In total that town would have an added deficit of -2400*20 = -48000 per hour on EVERY basic resource, excluding food !!! Very "believable" tale ... and very practical arrangement too ... |
Posted By: Sloter
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2013 at 10:30
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It can be done, on downside it would need 4 other towns to send those basic res to town that has 700% bonus.That would mean that total of 5 towns are tied u to give 700% bonus in only one of those 5.If those 5 towns would all train troops at 250-300% which can be done without going in red with basic res then those 5 town would give 1250% or 1500% bonus compared to operation where 4 towns have to suport 5th that has 700%. |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2013 at 13:03
| +700% seems high. I have, however, seen at least one town with +3% desert spear sov at 8x IV, 12x III. That's 68 levels totaling +544%, or 6.44x the base build speed. I have seen several others with similar, but less extreme, sov configurations |
Posted By: Darkwords
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2013 at 13:04
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Thats not how the sov boost works, but then, I should not be training people here should I. Not that I would recommend anyone trying to run a 700% city. ------------- <Deranzin> I'd agree with darkone on that [21:59]<ropadope> you know I am perverted <Bartleby> dark is upsetting some peeps |
Posted By: Aurordan
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2013 at 13:15
| One thing I've learned about this game: If it can be done, somebody, somewhere is doing it. |
Posted By: geofrey
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2013 at 14:31
holy crap! I had no idea. Shows you how much I know. ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/45534" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2013 at 15:15
| Geofrey, I would consider +150-200% to be pretty standard for any big city in a tournament or war. |
Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2013 at 13:28
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Some figures are only possible using a couple of full permasitted account to feed the master account.
I know it is common this days to do it in such a way. Probably no more a game for me. ------------- 
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Posted By: Darkwords
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2013 at 14:31
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You dont need perma sat support to run decent recruitment sov. Or rather, if you do then you are doing something drastically wrong.... and I am not talking about a piddly 200% rate.
------------- <Deranzin> I'd agree with darkone on that [21:59]<ropadope> you know I am perverted <Bartleby> dark is upsetting some peeps |
Posted By: Jane DarkMagic
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2013 at 22:34
| I predict that everyone will get bored and quit the game. |
Posted By: Epidemic
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2014 at 00:41
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I'd love to find out how 200% troop sov is piddly and easily achievable & realistic over a long period. Only way I see it being possible is for cannon fodder troops like t1 orc spearmen. What fun is there in perma building cannon fodder? |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2014 at 05:28
A million easily replaceable cannon fodder troops is no fun? 20 level 3 sovereignties could get you +300% boost without going negative in any resources. You don't have to do it over long period, you could switch the sovereign squares for a tournament or an approaching war. |
Posted By: Epidemic
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2014 at 05:53
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A resourse with 5 L20 plots and a L20 res booster will get you 17,776 p/h at 20% tax. 20 L3 troop sovs require 12,000 p/h upkeep. You won't be able to support a big military with low taxes and no troop lodgings, unless you go massively negative in gold p/h. You can't supply your troops with supplies at 300% production, so you'll need to sell off everything else you gather or produce for gold for supplies. Gathering a large amount of supplies during times of peace and then losing them all to supply the war machine is not what i'd consider to be piddly, easily achieveable and realistic. |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2014 at 06:05
As simple as that.
Many players are playing the game since 2010 and 2011. Many players have over a billion gold stashed. Even if a few players dont have such gold, their alliances will be able to provide support. Technically, making a billion gold is not piddly. But considering that many players have been playing for years and they just happen to have that kind of gold, it is very much realistic. |
Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2014 at 06:13
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Posted By: Epidemic
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2014 at 06:25
Yes, this is true. But you can agree that this is not something that can be kept up forever. No player can war indefinitely, effectively, unless of course it has permasits feeding it. |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2014 at 06:25
| Game alright, but I wouldnt like a siege on my cities on Christmas. Angrim does. Go siege him! :D |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2014 at 06:30
Yea, its not something you can keep up round the year. Many alliances in the current war are warring for the first time. Tournaments lasts only for one month, so they dont take much toll. |
Posted By: jcx
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2014 at 07:50
new blood will join in and war will continue until every warring alliance will seek peace and cease hostilities. :D Happy New Year - 2014.  ------------- Disclaimer: The above is jcx|orcboy's personal opinion and is not the opinion or policy of Harmless? [H?] or of the little green men that have been following him all day. jcx in H? | orcboy in H? |
Posted By: Nesse
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2014 at 18:41
+1 ------------- Nesse(Dwarven Druids) and Odd (Fairy Road Authority) |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2014 at 02:33
Which is why most big alliances have lots of permasat accounts feeding their tournament and war engines. The largest military players can indeed fight indefinitely, even at +200-300% troop sov. Their gold and items will never be depleted, their troop queues will never stall. Only a newb would attempt to stay gold positive in an Illyriad war. |
Posted By: Meagh
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2014 at 08:01
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The war should be unsustainable for most large players at this point. the fact that it isn't leaves me feeling like such a noob... i haven't run positive gold cities in a long time... and i'm a peaceful trader... And it is only my trade that allows me to keep a sizeable army for the defense of myself and my friends. At times I have run over -100k in a city.. Now I can't imagine sustaining that for very long and I certainly can't imagine going beyond to say.. 500k? or more? If you are running -100k+ in this war since it's start then I must say that there is no way that you can do it without using at least one feeder account... There is just no way that this can be done... and before you say, 'oh but many players have billions' then I will point out that yes, I understand.. I am one of those players.. and if you average -100k we could say you are -20mil a day. That adds up pretty quick. You are talking about fifty days worth of coin at that level. this war has already gone past that. If you have an extremely large army (say -500k) then you are talking about much less time for a war. No sir.. This cannot be done without permasat feeder accounts. The fact that so many are claiming that they can do this or that it is being done is a VERY bad sign for Illy; pervasive permasat feeder accounts are a symptom of a dying game and dying community. ------------- 
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Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2014 at 09:22
I think that this topic is being a bit dramatic on what an account can sustain ... admitting that I still have the newbie mentality of wanting EVERYTHING to be in the positive (not because that it cannot be done, but because this is a city building game and I like being good at eco-nomy ) I always stay in the positive (gold, resources, research) during peace time. Despite that, in 8 cities I had a six digit number of T2 troops which were more than capable of protecting my account and there is NO NEED to go negative on anything to maintain an army of a decent size. If you want to go "monster size", yes, many things will hit eventually red, BUT for a trader, like you say, such a thing is imho a total waste of resources.
Indeed and I agree on that being a bad thing for the game ... I will not point to examples of cities which battle reports have revealed to have an extreme "black hole" setup, but I think that this is a very bad choice tactically too. A city like the one described in the second page by Elmindra is a "black hole" setup that would demand at least 4-5 cities to feed it resources every day, as it would require approximately 800.000 of each of the basic resource DAILY to maintain that sov. And in that regard I think that Sloter's post in the same page explains how bad that arrangement really is ... |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 01:04
Your math is very bad. That's 2.4M a day. And 1B/2.4M = 416 days. That's absolutely sustainable without a second account. Even if we said -500K that's still 84 days on 1B gold.
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Posted By: Epidemic
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 07:59
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Its just not possible to sustain a military account, on its own, permanently in this game. What do I mean by a military account; 16-20 L2 or higher troop sov claims, 2 or more troop lodgings, non-stop production, large amount of troops, high taxes, 2 or more geo magic effect, in every single town. Even a player that keeps low taxes, has decent amount of troops and kills off their troops as fast as they build them is going to be hard pressed to collect the resources needed to keep the war machine running. I find it hard to imagine that some players, in times of peace, have no troops and very high taxes for the explicit purpose of hoarding the gold until a time of war. That would be the definition of a permasit account. |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 09:07
You are doing the math for one town ... he was talking about ten of them. 100000 per hour * 24 hours * 10 towns = 24.000.000 million gold deficit per day.
There is a solution, it is pretty easy and obvious, but since it is you I will let you find it by yourself |
Posted By: jcx
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 09:23
 - confused much?the war is 2 months old... as per gold reserved - this is sustainable. a player can max his town with T2 Cav at a minimum of 100K units (HYO almost did this) and bleeds 400,000 gold/h) and you'll burn 9.6M gold daily. that's without cost reduction building for faster troop production. Exaggerated Calc: 9.6M x10 cities = 96M Gold Daily in all towns. 10 days Maxed. lol (but this is not possible...) if you have a billion you'll last up to 104 days holding those troops. But since you are at WAR - no troops will stay that long inside the barracks. they'll kill, plunder and die before burning your billion to dust. I've no issue with permasat accounts. Happy Gaming Everyone. :D ------------- Disclaimer: The above is jcx|orcboy's personal opinion and is not the opinion or policy of Harmless? [H?] or of the little green men that have been following him all day. jcx in H? | orcboy in H? |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 09:45
You are all forgetting the costs until you build up all those troops ;) Here is the deal, to build a knight with no sov reduction requires 800 seconds. 100000 knights require 80.000.000 seconds which are 925 DAYS during which you will go negative in the 90% of them and the additive cost (-1000 per hour today, -2000 tomorrow, -3000 the next day and so forth  ) is going to be huge well before before you reach your target, or before a war starts, even with sov reduction ... |
Posted By: Halcyon
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 10:08
| While I too dislike the WW2 war crimes references, on the battlefield, this war has passed it's Stalingrad and El-Alamein phase. And while D-Day is yet to come, it seems that, to quote Sir Winston Churchill: "Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." |
Posted By: jcx
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 10:08
Ouch!  /me goes back to training yard to find out how this troop making works. ty Deranzin. :D ------------- Disclaimer: The above is jcx|orcboy's personal opinion and is not the opinion or policy of Harmless? [H?] or of the little green men that have been following him all day. jcx in H? | orcboy in H? |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 10:29
I cannot even begin to imagine what you would have said if actually liked doing those references ! Good post though  Edit:
Don't mention it ... :) To follow up with the costs I run a small calculation on that scenario. In that case this city will produce 108 knights per day, adding an extra upkeep of 432 gold per our every day. So, supposing that it generates 60000 gold per hour and all of it is reserved for troops then if you want to create a monster army of a 100.000 knights, at the end of those 925 days you will have to have paid 3.108.355.200 gold in upkeep Sov buildings and Cavalry parades of course reduce that time and cost, but you will have to take into account THEIR costs to maintain as well and I am not in the mood atm to add all those parameters to the calculations. |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 14:01
Instead of 60,000 gold income and 0% sovereignty, use 0 gold income and 300% sovereignty. Then your 100K knights will be finished in 232 days, eating about 1.1 billion gold. That is about as much gold as 200K per hour for 232 days. |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 14:24
Exactly. But it is still a way of production which I consider too expensive and sub-optimal.
Yeah, but no city can generate that amount ... you would need 10 other cities to produce 20000 gold per hour (which mean few troops for them), just to "feed" the main city during all these days. No wonder I call these setups "black holes" ... though they do remind me of the planet Trantor in the Foundation series as well. |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 15:28
Why do you consider it expensive? It is way less expensive than running 925 days without sovereignty. Add a 45% reduction from two cavalry parade grounds, you would have spent only 600K gold in 232 days while producing the 100K knights.
Not 10, just about 3 cities. A 7 food city running at 20% spell and 40% sovereignty boost on food can produce 67106 gold at 85% tax. Assuming that the 8 immediate squares around the city are of 5 food sovereignty, the cost of sovereignty will be 4820 gold. |
Posted By: Darkwords
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 15:29
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Do you guys not realize the big hitters in this war did not start it on 0 gold and resources? There are some who sell all their excess on the markets, there are others who horde. The real expense of long term sov recruitment for a long term player is not gold, its the adv res needed to support such production. Personally I still have plenty in my hubs, but I have noted how a couple of H players have had to purchase adv res from me for their troop production. :) ------------- <Deranzin> I'd agree with darkone on that [21:59]<ropadope> you know I am perverted <Bartleby> dark is upsetting some peeps |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 15:37
Quite true Dark. I was running nearly 300% knight production in 3 of my Turalia cities and i ran out of 700 mil gold purchasing saddles only. Those dark days! I dont want to remember!  |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 15:53
The three biggest alliances on the anti-coalition side doesn't have training alliances (i could be wrong). So they cannot be supplying too many cities using alts from training alliances? Almost every alliance on the coalition's side has training alliances. T?, DiL, ARM, T-P, NS. I am not saying that there are alts in these alliances supporting the war. Just pointing out that that if you believe troop sovereignty is linked to feeder accounts, this is something where that belief should clash. |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 15:54
hehehe ... EVERYTHING is less expensive than the original scenario
That is why I said initially that the parameters are many and I was not much in the mood to calculate it ... 2 Cavalry parades need resources as well ... the tweaking involved to make 300% sov production, with the cavalry parades and how much you will produce before it becomes cost ineffective or when to apply a 3rd cavalry parade or destroy one of them ... these and many things more are needed to be considered and I am not up to it atm.
Cool ... but this result in those cities having no armies and we are back to Sloter's very good post on page 2.
We are actually assuming the existence of infinite resources in those examples and just calculating the possible cost ... |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 16:11
Look here, I wanted to have a theoretical discussion on costs ... if you want to talk the actual war, find another person to do that. As the matter stands you do not need other alliances (training or otherwise) to do the tricks Elmindra has been describing ... not only most of the big players have enough resources to run the queues themselves, but in terms of sov all you need is other towns to feed your own ... If you are so interested in knowing HOW it is done and how much it costs, ask Halcyon (he passed through this topic, else I wouldn't have mentioned him) how he sustains 6-digit number of troops in his 29000 population desert cities surrounded by 0 food sov. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/-942/-279 And a nice stream of caravans going in and out atm ... nice "coincidence" |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 16:14
I had a +296% in Mimosa with two cavalry parades and all resources positive - the city is still there - you can look it up.
Sloter's post was about cities running at 20x level 5 sov, which is a different matter. Some of Sloter's cities may be newly built after the last war reparation, but you could look up his older cities and decide for yourself what sovereignty they may run at. |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 16:20
No need, I do that. That is why I am sure of the numbers. All resource positive my friend, and no feeder cities. |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 16:29
This is the only Mimosa in Illyriad : http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/385/-491 Can't see any such sov though 
No 6 digit number of troops though ... ( and I know that because in the last war you sent me your cavalry early on )I never argued that you cannot have the sov and the buildings while keeping a positive income (if you read the previous page you will see that I said that myself) ... I said that you cannot have the sov, the buildings AND the 100000 troops in one city, without that eventually going negative and devouring the gold ( and possibly the basic resources as well) of other cities to stay alive. I do not think that anyone disagrees with that ... so all I did is run some possible scenarios and give some cost estimates. |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 16:47
No, you are not getting it. You cannot have 100,000 troops without sovereignty. Your cost estimates fall apart because you are considering all the factors separately while they are interlinked. Say, you have a geomancer city that you run at low tax to have enough mana to support your spells. That could as well be an ideal city to have two Marksmen's billets and run a +300% troop production. You may not need food sov there as your tax is low and more pop doesn't bring you much extra gold. You are not loosing anything in this setup. You can have enough resources to feed 2 archers billets and 2 geomancers and +12,000 resource production to supply your sovereignty, without help from other cities. |
Posted By: Epidemic
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 19:15
I see you didn't prove me wrong, as usual, lol. |
Posted By: Sloter
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 19:42
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Epidemic military account uses 16-20 L2 sovs only in war, and when in war nobody would have any interest in keeping high taxes since troops that are produce usually die within 10-15 days after they are made so there is not much need for high taxes.
If you mean war time situation it is posible to keep 16-20 L2 sovs without any time limit,with low taxes offcorse.Lodging buildings are demolished within first days of war after initial reserv of troops is lost to get more basic res income to suport sovs.Non stop production of weapons and troops is harder but it can be done if all cities make every type of weapon while 2 different types of troops are made in towns for exmpl s t2 pears and t1 bows for elfs- 5 cities making t2 spears and 5 making t1 bows, or even 3 types of troops if needed.Any weapon not used like plate armor for exmpl can be sold and additional weapon can be bought to keep production going. |
Posted By: Sloter
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 19:50
| Also hoarding weapons and gold in peace time and keeping only medium size army is probably best way to go.It is expensive to keep max size army in peace time on burden of gold and weapon production while keeping medium size army and making huge surplus of weapons and gold can pay off when war comes. |
Posted By: Elmindra
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 23:46
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You can maintain 200% sov with 60% taxes at all times with everything in the green, enough to maintain at minimum 30k T2 cavalry and still be positive in gold. During non-war times, you simply switch to cow/saddle sov. Saddles and/or cows sell so well that they make more gold than taxes with no troops. Gold isn't only produced by itself, but also by selling excess resources of the T1 AND T2 variety.
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Posted By: tansiraine
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2014 at 00:17
| My two cents.. I been buying stuff cause i too lazy to get it out of my hubs.. i know i know bad tansi.. but the stuff is cheap give it 6 months when it expensive to buy anything...Looking today saddles are cheaper then when the war started so why not buy them save the stockpiles for when ya really really need them... just saying |
Posted By: Meagh
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2014 at 01:02
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a stockpile gets burned through pretty quickly. The point that I was trying to make earlier is that it is not possible to maintain a full war account on it's own. Epi is absolutely right on that matter (fully independent war accounts are a fable in all games of the Evony genre). No matter what people are trying to imply in the forums and no matter what sov you have - it cannot be done by yourself. Either you'll be a mixed farm / war account or you will have 3-5 accounts (sitters or active players) supporting you. Sure.. you can build to a self-sustainable level, call yourself a war account but that is self-delusion... you'd be small fries compared to what the big boys are throwing around. - M. -------------
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Posted By: Tyrande Whisperwinds
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2014 at 01:10
How many troops do you think a self-sustained city can hold? just curious..
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Posted By: Elmindra
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2014 at 01:11
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Elmindra has a large number of troops, all sov 250% or higher, all the while not remotely burning through my stockpile of gold and/or resources. I still make more T2 than I use due to troop to town layout, and have even sold some excess T2 when the price was right. It isn't difficult to do, and while I wouldn't like to keep doing it for more than a year I don't imagine all my troops with continue to live forever. Losing a town full of 75k or more troops and it's instant gold mine for a bit, no biggie.
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Posted By: Epidemic
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2014 at 02:35
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Elmindra, I can't see your claims being possible right now. My towns are between 70-75% tax with 25k stals and i'm barely earning any gold and i'm hard pressed to keep up with food demands. Adding more troop lodgings is out of the question, because then I wouldn't have the res to build the equipment my troops need. Increasing my geo towns beyond 20% bonus is also out of the question as well for the above reasons. If you've figured it out please explain it better for those of us looking for the perfect setup. What is your res p/h output? |
Posted By: Elmindra
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2014 at 02:59
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Are you questioning the 200% sov/60% taxes setup? Or my current setup? I run around 0% taxes atm, running large amount of -gph but I have a very very large stockpile so oh well. As for the earlier setup, 200% sov with 3 troop buildings is easily capable of supporting ~30k T2 troops in the green all across the board. That is what I used to run before the war without a problem in almost all of my towns. That is only 20% geo bonus as well, around 25k city pop with only 1 or 2 food sovs per town, 18-19 are production sovs at levels 1-3 depending on distance along with a level 20 chancelery. The 200% production sov can be used as swing sov depending on what is needed. Run too negative in gold simply switch it to food and up taxes, need to train more troops simply switch back to production. -------------
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Posted By: jcx
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2014 at 05:50
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For some options mentioned above - they most likely work on CREATE & UNLOAD play-style. create&unload - matter most on your advance res pool. Gold will not matter much because they tend to do a yo-yo effect. now you're red and after unloading those troops you'll be back at green - and you'll earn Gold while rebuilding troops too. 200% or higher ^ Troop production will work effectively on this 55537 setup (or wherever that 3 plots will go/depending on troop type that you're producing) Note: the 3 plots was linked on your cost reduction building. They are all variable - if you tend to keep your troops in a longer period, you need to convert those troop sov to farmstead and build cost reduction buildings they'll help a lot. Build and demolish is fun. happy gaming. :D ------------- Disclaimer: The above is jcx|orcboy's personal opinion and is not the opinion or policy of Harmless? [H?] or of the little green men that have been following him all day. jcx in H? | orcboy in H? |
Posted By: Elmindra
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2014 at 13:11
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Exactly orcboy, that's the basic idea. With the swing sov you can run red in 1 area for a short time and swing back to green in order to get back to even.
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Posted By: Auraya
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2014 at 16:41
| Maybe you should take food sov into account, Epi. A 7 food town with 60+ very cheap food sov can maintain a much higher tax rate and a higher population - both leading to more gold production. I have towns which can maintain 40k cav on a permanent basis and others which can only hold ~25k cav. Food sov is a vital difference! Also, using prestige on rp + food greatly increases how high your tax rate can go. I have cities with clay bonus on so I can house chancery + 3x cav parade grounds = more cav ^^ |
Posted By: Sloter
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2014 at 16:57
| It does look that his cities could do much better on food sovs, and that is probably what is causing problem for his towns when he tries to have more troops or higher taxes and gold income. |
Posted By: Epidemic
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2014 at 20:46
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Once I get my 10th town i'll most likely drop all cities down to 18k range so food won't be an issue. I've been basically trying to figure out how some players can be at war non-stop in this game, and I have come to the conclusion that they can't do it independently. The probable exception being T1 orc spearmen that only require 1 beer, 1 spear. I calculated it takes roughly 62M in gold value to create an 25k stalwart army, which at 200% sov I can build every 34 days. (I took 30 seconds to calculate that so its probably way off). There is no way even I could spend 60M a month per town indefinitely. |
Posted By: Sloter
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2014 at 20:58
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You keep thinking as individual player, players that are in war are in alliances.If you were in war and in alliance you would trade all surplus saddles and other weapon that you make with other players in alliance while they would give you swords and armor they produce.
Also it is 62M gold on paper and in reality it is basic res converted to weapons that are converted to troops so you dont need 62M gold, you only basic res to make all weapons (it does not matter if they are worth 62M or 500M since you only use basic res to make them not gold) you can exchange with other friendly players for weapons you are short on.It is extremly hard for dwarf player to make only stals in war since they need 3 weapons that are made in only one building so inter alliance trade is only way out of it.Even if you do calculate only over gold you could just consider how much saddles worth of gold you make in 34 days, not to mention spears,beer and bows.Doing 200% sovs is easier then it looks.
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Posted By: Epidemic
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2014 at 00:11
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Teamwork is still a concept i'm trying to get used to. Every game i've ever played it was usually everyone for themselves or reinforcements arrived a day late and a dollar short. I will try my hardest to build the perfect dwarven military account, until something else gets my attention, in the mean time i'll be drilling everyone for insight and shortcuts. I'm still perplexed on how to overcome the basic math: Stalwart - 2 swords, 1 chainmail, 1 plate armor, 1 beer L20 Barracks 200% sov - 30 stalwarts p/h ?? L20 Blacksmith - sword 10 p/h - chainmail 7.5 p/h L20 Brewery - beer 15 p/h L20 Forge - plate armor 6.67 p/h Barter - L20 Common Ground - livestock 8.57 p/h L20 Paddock - horse 7.5 p/h (maybe get rid of this and add something more profitable?) Skinner, Herbalist, Miner Guilds - unpredictable Cotter I haven't given up on the idea of a mixed army, though the choices for dwarves are all expensive, just not experienced enough to know what works well together. |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2014 at 02:34
| You're a trader. Sell the bows, spears, horses, cows, saddles and leather armor you make. Purchase additional swords, chainmail and platemail. Then you can be 100% stalwarts (which is a terrible build in my opinion). I build Halbardiers, rune riders, slingers/crossbowmen, and axemen. Stalwarts are for building fast replacements, only good if you are fighting heavily, like in a tournament. The unused materials I produce in one city get sent to the next city. I still hit bottlenecks on chain armor and swords, buy they aren't as bad as single city constraints when supported from bow or cavalry towns. |
Posted By: Elmindra
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2014 at 03:05
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Yeah, dwarves are a bad example of efficiency. As an elf, I can make saddles in 8 towns since I only make T1 archers. Chain/swords like 7/3, bows in all towns, beer in all towns, spears in all towns, leather in 2 for T2 spears. It all works out pretty well, with extra saddles being sold or traded for bows and beer as needed. No bottlenecks, but once again thats an elf that isn't all cav or archers.
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Posted By: Epidemic
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2014 at 03:53
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I guess we dwarves really did get the short end of the stick... I don't build bows, spears, saddles or leather because I have no need for them and my towns have very limited space. They are all specialized and will be lean once I reach 10 towns. The dwarven spearmen and ranged are useless imo, no use in defense when an army can siege you down to 0 pop without the need to attack said defensive troops. Of course I could build them in my siege towns to protect my siege engines (good idea). Axmen, on paper, are not much different from stalwarts so i'd rather just build the one. Dwarven cav, maybe in one town. |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2014 at 04:23
| Epidemic, you use ranged and spear units for city defense. Direct catapult attacks are often used when a city is surrounded by easily defended squares. Stalwarts aren't going to stop that. Plus you need bows and spears to defend tournament squares, siege camps and sometimes bad siege tiles next to your cities. A strategy that relies 100% on clearing sieges is doomed to fail in a complex team game like Illyriad. |
Posted By: Mr Damage
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2014 at 04:47
| Sloter stop giving them tips. Lol |
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2014 at 05:05
/me groans at Epi's pun.
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Posted By: Meagh
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2014 at 23:44
Elmindra gives a good example of a self-sustained cities troop level. 30-50k for large players depending on troop type. EDIT: Elmindra also mentions 75k. That would be high for a self-sustained account imo but it is still significantly lower than what major war accounts had in troop number pre-war. -------------
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Posted By: Hiei
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2014 at 01:52
| Yes I have seen 700%+ troop sov and it is pretty cool, the negatives in resources are massive but that is not really a problem ;). And a lot of us already think that they are bunkering down. Why else would they let sieges go without even one single hit on the siege, and why would anyone stop producing any troops? That would not be logical because we are in total war. |